Canadian soldier killed defending our freedom

[china]

Curiosity :
Canada is an autonomous country and it is governed by the wishes of the people (isn't it?).----------------

Yeap , The wish of the people is in Chretian's Red Books ,1and 2 .

 

[CDNBear]

That reminds me, gotta wear blue tomorrow.

Well, I was gunna come at ya, with a big long winded, smartassed response, but why waste my time on a complete "goof". I sinserely mean that in the "prison" sence of the word.

 

[Curiosity]

Curiosity:.
Canada is an autonomous country and it is governed by the wishes of the people (isn't it?).-------------------

Love you Curiosity ,you're so funny.

China

Just came across this - my forum days have been sporadic this week.....

It was a weird statement no? Democracy is the will of the people, but the "will" is played with so much...I wonder who actually votes in their right mind?

I love you back China - for your thoughts and the peace you bring to me with your questions - I like to think in the deep brain before all the "life irritants" start crowding out the good thoughts.

You are a gift to the forum...and the membership.

 

[northstar]

originally posted by Johnny Utah-

So, you would rather cut and run having the deaths of the Soldiers before him being in vain? It's pretty easy for you to sit here and blah, blah about how this isn't our War and it's because of the Bush doctrine because you seem to forget Canadians also died on 9/11. The Soldiers who died knew what they signed up for. If Canada wasn't in this War we would be safe? You really have no clue do you? Get a clue because you're opinion would be different if the Liberals were still in power and the United States wasn't in Afghanistan, Afghanistan is a NATO Mission understand?

couldn't have said it better myself!!!

 

[tamarin]

Well the misinformation continues and some folks are even praising it. We are in Afghanistan to support NATO objectives and do our part to support the US war on terror. Is it a smart move? No. Clearly, the war can't be won. Afghan allegiance shifts like sand. The logistics of pacification are constantly compromised by Pakistan and the Afghans themselves who subscribe to tribal ethics and loyalties far more than they do to any international credo that all peoples be free and arbiters of their own destiny. This is a no-win situation for our troops and shame on those individuals who insist we're there doing the right thing or making Canada safer.
The soldiers there aren't sophisticated enough to grasp the geopolitical minutiae that make their participation so unrewarding. They're there because of what they were told and what, being members of the armed forces, they're supposed to do. There's no admirable awareness in that.
We will leave Afghanistan, it will return to what it virtually is already- a lawless, backward society and those supporting the present engagement will do what they've always done. Move on. Without any sense of accountability for their views today.
We need alternatives to what is happening today. Coz what's happening today ain't workin'.

 

[northstar]

Clearly the efforts to rid the world of these criminals who have waged war around the world from Bali to London to New York is indeed working. And the bravery of our soldiers is a major force against these terrorists.

Shame on you for your pessimistic outlook.

If you check your facts you will notice that the fanatic Muslims are hiding and trying to recruit new members abroad by whining about all the percieved slights that they suffer, i suppose these slights are distracting them from strapping on yet another bomb on some young boy or girl and murdering more people.

This is not just a US war on terror, this terrorism is global. This is about freedom to not have 9/11 and the terrorist plot in Toronto as part of our daily fears. It must be stopped because the cocaine income is dangerous.

Can you imagine if these nut bars get hold of nuclear weapons? l suggest you educate yourself to the situation the entire world is facing.

 

[tamarin]

Northstar, methinks your light is fading.
I am very well aware of what the hell is happening in Afghanistan and it makes me steam. We get apologists like you willing to sacrifice our kids there. For what? What? This war will not make us more safe and it will not be won. If you have any idea of the political currents that paddle about in that snarled waste of the world, you will know foreign intervention is merely marking time.
We need to do something else. I'll let all the talking heads that advocated this one suggest a plan.
As civil war rages in Iraq, and it is civil war, and the US and Britain are pushed ever closer to departure, what pray tell is the NATO Afghan strategy to meet such an apocalyptic event? How will it manage this war theatre when another more important one has been abandoned by western interests? We'd better start to hear something from the big boys because it's all coming to fruition in 2007.

 

[CDNBear]

Northstar, methinks your light is fading.
I am very well aware of what the hell is happening in Afghanistan and it makes me steam. We get apologists like you willing to sacrifice our kids there. For what? What? This war will not make us more safe and it will not be won. If you have any idea of the political currents that paddle about in that snarled waste of the world, you will know foreign intervention is merely marking time.
We need to do something else. I'll let all the talking heads that advocated this one suggest a plan.
As civil war rages in Iraq, and it is civil war, and the US and Britain are pushed ever closer to departure, what pray tell is the NATO Afghan strategy to meet such an apocalyptic event? How will it manage this war theatre when another more important one has been abandoned by western interests? We'd better start to hear something from the big boys because it's all coming to fruition in 2007.

Like I've stated many times, I support our Troops, not the war.

You make excellent points, the more I read your writings and other information, the less appealing the war is to me, but I still support my brothers and sisters, at all costs.

You speak of needing a better plan, have you got one? I'm more of a tactician, not a runner. The concept is as foriegn to me as speaking in tongues. I worry about what this may turn into. I know it's not your job, but do you have any ideas?

 

[MikeyDB]

We can cut through a bit of the emotional BS here by looking at exactly what is going on in Afghanistan. There is no goal, no boundary we have to reach, no line we have to cross in order to win. There is no winning. Troops will be needed forever to protect the pipeline---remember the pipeline? Canada has served NATO very well, and when this organization was created, it was a gathering of nations, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, France, Iceland, Italy, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, the United Kingdom, and the United States. who had borders on the north Atlantic, joined together for mutual protection. What the hell is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization doing in the Middle East defending American oil interests? The "war on terror" is a fool's game that can't be won, but we will fight it till our country gags on the phoney premise that this war was started on.

It's diffficult sometimes not to personalize rebuttals and engage in argument as opposed to discussion... argument tends to focus on what someone said as opposed to discussing facts....

I'm not contributing anymore time or thought to the folk here at Canadian Content, because quite frankly I don't think the majority of folk here want to discuss they'd prefer to argue and many come from an entrenched position that relies on wholesale embrace of what we all have known and been shown are lies and misdirection to hide the corruption and criminality taking place as "the coalition of the willing" prosecutes a pseudo-war on "terrorism".

Abu Ghraib isn't a symptom of a war-gone-wrong, it is the product of a war (invasion of Iraq) predicated on falsehoods and lies. One participant was kind enough to send me a PM regarding his interest in discussing the notion of proportionality in armed conflicts, a bright light in an otherwise dim group. Guantanamo Bay "Camp X-Ray" is a prisoner of war camp regardless of what the American media chooses to call it..at the behest of a corrupt administration...

This game of semantics arguing the relevence of "armed-combatant"...vs. prisoner-of-war" is an elegant example of this American administrations prosecution of an illegal war floated on the legalese. A legal argument that permits the United States to dispense with nasty details like the Geneva Conventions....

Certainly when a society elects to sacrfice its children to war in the name of "freedom" or the name of "peace" that society doesn't act as a dutiful parent. The mechanism or dynamic at work is that of an amalgam of the social ethos, a generalized angst sculpted and aimed not by those who seek to establish or re-establish stability, but by those who believe they have something to gain. A dutiful parent will make every measure possible in avoiding harm to their children. When however the "enemy" is defined as those who unscrupulously or in those legal terms so dear to the Whitehouse legal teams...abetted a terrorist, it conjures images of the French Resistance during WWII...a resistance fighter was somone who called the Naziis nasty names behind their backs...

If the criteria for affixing the label of "terrorist" extends to those who unknowingly "allowed" a terrorist organization to train in their country, then it's everyone in that country it isn't just the criminals and fanatics rigging IED's and therefore everyone in that nation is fair game....

When the day comes....when the people against whom this and all the other unjustifiable "wars" have been conducted are in a position to decide whether or not they should detonate a device (nuclear, chemical, biological) and exact a retribution (isn't this all about 9/11????) against those who've abetted funded and militarily supported both those regimes responsible for generations of cruelty and oppression and those who with smug superiority sit in cities far away (half a planet away) taking it upon themselves to decide who lives and who dies to keep their comfortable entitlement to conspicuous consumption thriving, who would doubt what choice they'll make?

The great curse of humankind is the brevity of his memory. The Jews have done a great job trying to get people sensitized to the results which can follow from not acting quickly enough to stem the tide of hatred and yet, these same folk appear to be unable to find a solution to the Palestinian "problem" that dosen't include mass extermination.

The world isn't ready to prosecute a "peace" instead it clings desperately to the machinery of war believing despite all the evidence to the contrary that they have something to win or to gain that can be achieved by killing.

I enjoyed your contribution Juan but I believe it's wasted on this crowd...

 

[northstar]

It is interesting to here all the wails from the arm chair warriors about how wrong this war is. I suppose WW 2 was wrong as well, and yet you are enjoying the freedom and liberties and generousity that are the fruits of the war and the incredible sacrific that was made by our soldiers.

I just can't believe the personal attacks by people because they self-rightously proclaim that the war is wrong and anyone who doesn't agree is sending 'our kids' to their death. Then, to add to the hypocracy, they can't think of anything else to contribute, no facts, no solutions, no insight into their personal view of why they see it this way.

 

[CDNBear]

It's diffficult sometimes not to personalize rebuttals and engage in argument as opposed to discussion... argument tends to focus on what someone said as opposed to discussing facts....

I'm not contributing anymore time or thought to the folk here at Canadian Content, because quite frankly I don't think the majority of folk here want to discuss they'd prefer to argue and many come from an entrenched position that relies on wholesale embrace of what we all have known and been shown are lies and misdirection to hide the corruption and criminality taking place as "the coalition of the willing" prosecutes a pseudo-war on "terrorism".

Abu Ghraib isn't a symptom of a war-gone-wrong, it is the product of a war (invasion of Iraq) predicated on falsehoods and lies. One participant was kind enough to send me a PM regarding his interest in discussing the notion of proportionality in armed conflicts, a bright light in an otherwise dim group. Guantanamo Bay "Camp X-Ray" is a prisoner of war camp regardless of what the American media chooses to call it..at the behest of a corrupt administration...

This game of semantics arguing the relevence of "armed-combatant"...vs. prisoner-of-war" is an elegant example of this American administrations prosecution of an illegal war floated on the legalese. A legal argument that permits the United States to dispense with nasty details like the Geneva Conventions....

Certainly when a society elects to sacrfice its children to war in the name of "freedom" or the name of "peace" that society doesn't act as a dutiful parent. The mechanism or dynamic at work is that of an amalgam of the social ethos, a generalized angst sculpted and aimed not by those who seek to establish or re-establish stability, but by those who believe they have something to gain. A dutiful parent will make every measure possible in avoiding harm to their children. When however the "enemy" is defined as those who unscrupulously or in those legal terms so dear to the Whitehouse legal teams...abetted a terrorist, it conjures images of the French Resistance during WWII...a resistance fighter was somone who called the Naziis nasty names behind their backs...

If the criteria for affixing the label of "terrorist" extends to those who unknowingly "allowed" a terrorist organization to train in their country, then it's everyone in that country it isn't just the criminals and fanatics rigging IED's and therefore everyone in that nation is fair game....

When the day comes....when the people against whom this and all the other unjustifiable "wars" have been conducted are in a position to decide whether or not they should detonate a device (nuclear, chemical, biological) and exact a retribution (isn't this all about 9/11????) against those who've abetted funded and militarily supported both those regimes responsible for generations of cruelty and oppression and those who with smug superiority sit in cities far away (half a planet away) taking it upon themselves to decide who lives and who dies to keep their comfortable entitlement to conspicuous consumption thriving, who would doubt what choice they'll make?

The great curse of humankind is the brevity of his memory. The Jews have done a great job trying to get people sensitized to the results which can follow from not acting quickly enough to stem the tide of hatred and yet, these same folk appear to be unable to find a solution to the Palestinian "problem" that dosen't include mass extermination.

The world isn't ready to prosecute a "peace" instead it clings desperately to the machinery of war believing despite all the evidence to the contrary that they have something to win or to gain that can be achieved by killing.

I enjoyed your contribution Juan but I believe it's wasted on this crowd...

I agree with you and #Juan, In fact i have said as much in many thread, started by others and myself.

But whether one agrees with the war or not, is not an issue that translates into field conversation. It is quickly heard as dissention, and dismissed as cowardess. That's not an attack, it is merely an educated observation. Things lose context in combat, debate is not even considered. Orders are followed or good men die, orders are followed and good men die, that is war.

Supporting the Troops, is just good for the Troops, not politicians, who use "Red Friday" as a political approval for their actions, falsely. I'm not brainwashed, and I think a lot of the people who have posted in this thread are in the same boat as me. The war is wrong, pulling out now, would have grave consiquences and our support for the Troops, shouldbe the focus.

Support for our Troops, is just that, support. You would be amazed how good it feels to see people back home, standing, wearing read in pics and on the tube, just for us. That's is all I have been trying to say.

 

[MikeyDB]

Northstar

I can only speak for myself here my friend when I comment that my perspective isn’t nor has it ever been as an observer or “arm-chair warrior” in the sense that I’m trying to paint a picture of the Afghanistan mistake as anything but what it is.

The reason why we set aside special observances for November 11 to reflect on the sacrifices made by millions in defeating the tyranny of a fascist regime (and of course an imperialist regime) is because we acknowledge that freedom and stability are by the nature of the human beast vulnerable to destruction by those who’d exercise violence and intimidation without bounds (genocide, land mines and chemical warfare). It is entirely appropriate for a free-people to defend themselves and while it is a tragic statement about the nature of the human animal, it is a reality that demands our attention.

However as soon as we move beyond a stalwart defence of the freedoms we enjoy and prosecute war on the basis of a pretext exposed as being in significant ways, fabricated, and as soon as we elect to abandon principles like the Geneva Conventions and conditionally re-write “law” to suit the circumstance, we have become the enemy…all apologies to POGO….

The reality facing us is that we as a society have decided that we’re willing to sacrifice our young men and women in a conflict that may be highly questionable in terms of the actual intent behind the actions being taken and a conflict that demands the sacrifice of many innocent civilians, a price that if the shoe were on the opposite foot would be soundly renounced.

When fifty thousand or five hundred thousand or according to some over a million people are being killed in conflicts that have a very large “gray” area with respect to the fundamental genesis of these conflicts….why so many need to die even as retaliation for the deaths of those on 9/11, or Madrid or London or the bombing of the Cole, or all the possible incidents attributed to both religious fanatics and/or a criminal organization calling itself Al Qeada, the disparity in slaughter can’t help but raise the question of who is committing greater wrong…..

When a Canadian soldier dies in Afghanistan, why should there be so much falderal?

We have been told that Canada would take up arms and go to Afghanistan not as a peace-keeper but with full intentions of killing people…

Why is it a surprise that those whom we’ve sent our military to kill…kill in response?

Don’t confuse this current bloody mess in Afghanistan with the subjugation and slaughter of the people of Poland or France or Indo China, where civilian populations suffered the outrage of inhumane cruelty and years of bombardment fixed in a struggle with an aggressor of limited conscience who brought war to many nations. The people of Afghanistan, if we believe they’re guilty of providing aid and comfort to terrorist training camps are no less answerable for that behaviour than are we for ours. The difficulty is in believing that in a nation like Afghanistan where the social organizing principles of tribalism date back thousands of years that even a majority of those folk even knew about the presence of al-Qaeda in their country.

Kill the Taliban, the people of Afghanistan don’t need them and it’s only the barbarism of our approach to their presence in that nation that gives rise to even greater hatred for America and the west as a whole now that S. Harper sends our military to kill them….

There are some fundamental differences here Northstar that I don’t think you’re fairly balancing in this equation.

 

[CDNBear]

now that S. Harper sends our military to kill them….

Would you like to correct that? SH, did not send them.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Would you like to correct that? SH, did not send them.

Liberals have selective memory when it comes to who sent Canadian Forces to Afghanistan. When the Liberals were in power they were all for the Mission, now their out of power and against the Mission trying to rewrite history of who sent them there in the first place. What it comes down to is Liberals are Hypocrites! Cut and dry that is it..

 

[northstar]

The point of the war against terrorism was to protect our country against the rise of terrorism attacks. This effected our country, and was not just a 9/11 attack against the Americans. War was declared against Western countries and it is the Islamic ideal to have all the fruits of our world be turned over to a bunch of fanatical terrorist.
This has been in our tolerant culture under the gise of Muslim communities that were proven, in different areas of the world to be carrying on recruitments for suicide bombers and other such murders.
It is fine for you armchair warriors to talk about 'killing our boys' in self righteousness. That is not being supportive of the vital mission 'our boys' are carrying out. and by the by, what about our women soldiers?

If anything there is far too much tolerance that has been given to the Muslims' and that has been proven by what has happened in the London bombings, the Bali terrorist attacks, the New York and Washington attacks, and the foiled Toronto attempt, as well as this international airline incident tha has impacted our world forever.

You really need to wake up and get with the program. The tolerance is shrinking for the Muslim community and fortunatly there is a shift in how they are looking at their own quar'an, to see how peace and human rights and freedom are observed. One Muslim, took a good long look and decided to convert to Christianity, now their is a 6 million dollar bounty on his head. This is just one example of the type of tolerance the Muslim religion holds for Westerners.

The web of mosques, and Islamic schools deny others the freedom of speach, by discriminating against all teachers that apply to teach that are not Muslim. Thye have sought to repress Westerners to write, publish or make films, or cartoons or artwork.

They want our entire world. This is about claiming our right for our own freedom. The war was waged by Muslims' , and our soldiers are one again protecting our freedom. The least you can do is not demoralize them with these baseless claims that are opinions of people who have not researched the situation.

oh and go Johnny Go!

 

[CDNBear]

The point of the war against terrorism was to protect our country against the rise of terrorism attacks. This effected our country, and was not just a 9/11 attack against the Americans. War was declared against Western countries and it is the Islamic ideal to have all the fruits of our world be turned over to a bunch of fanatical terrorist.
This has been in our tolerant culture under the gise of Muslim communities that were proven, in different areas of the world to be carrying on recruitments for suicide bombers and other such murders.
It is fine for you armchair warriors to talk about 'killing our boys' in self righteousness. That is not being supportive of the vital mission 'our boys' are carrying out. and by the by, what about our women soldiers?

If anything there is far too much tolerance that has been given to the Muslims' and that has been proven by what has happened in the London bombings, the Bali terrorist attacks, the New York and Washington attacks, and the foiled Toronto attempt, as well as this international airline incident tha has impacted our world forever.

You really need to wake up and get with the program. The tolerance is shrinking for the Muslim community and fortunatly there is a shift in how they are looking at their own quar'an, to see how peace and human rights and freedom are observed. One Muslim, took a good long look and decided to convert to Christianity, now their is a 6 million dollar bounty on his head. This is just one example of the type of tolerance the Muslim religion holds for Westerners.

The web of mosques, and Islamic schools deny others the freedom of speach, by discriminating against all teachers that apply to teach that are not Muslim. Thye have sought to repress Westerners to write, publish or make films, or cartoons or artwork.

They want our entire world. This is about claiming our right for our own freedom. The war was waged by Muslims' , and our soldiers are one again protecting our freedom. The least you can do is not demoralize them with these baseless claims that are opinions of people who have not researched the situation.

oh and go Johnny Go!

Most of us stand with you, but you must admit that the operations were ill concieved.

Hey, I'm an ex soldier, we've been training and itching for a real fight for years, but this operation, dispite being exicuted fairly well, was not planned well, then again it was set up by the liberals.

 

[northstar]

but you must admit that the operations were ill concieved

Could you expand on that? How do you see that they have been ill-concieved? Do you mean that not enough planning and money was put behind the operation, or that it wasn't properly planned out in terms of a timeline and focus??

I am interested in hearing from your perspective, especially valuable since yu have been a hero for our country.{ Thank-you for being a hero. }

 

[MikeyDB]

“War was declared against Western countries”

No my friend there was never a declaration of war made by any nation against “Western countries”….

Who can declare “war”?

What you’re suggesting is that a band of fanatical Islamists operating under the aegis of al-Qa'ida commited an act of war against the United States and Canada and this was an act of war.

These people are criminals, not the agents of foreign governments! What gives you the idea that a criminal conspiracy successful in engendering fear and hatred in North Americans is the policy of some legal foreign entity?

You bought that Iraq was sitting on a pile of weapons of mass destruction too right?

But your presentation confirms exactly what the terrorists want. Your idea that there is a cultural divide predicated on religious grounds that a foreign power i.e., Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, whomever…seeks to destroy the goose that laid the golden egg…

It makes perfect sense as far as your concerned that after years of commerce and piles of money paid for petroleum to oppressive regimes in the oil producing nations in the Middle East that they would choose to cut their throats while they cut ours just to impress upon us that our habits of consumption are the real source of conflict?

Connie Rice has an Exxon super-tanker named after her….the soviets occupied Afghanistan with hopes of securing a “right-of-way” to build a gas pipeline (ask the mayor of Kandahar he used to work for the American oil cartel) ….despite all these contributing factors you believe that Islamists are driven by their religious zeal to eviscerate Christianity and this is all about religion…..

How about them leafs…….

 

[CDNBear]

Could you expand on that? How do you see that they have been ill-concieved? Do you mean that not enough planning and money was put behind the operation, or that it wasn't properly planned out in terms of a timeline and focus??

I am interested in hearing from your perspective, especially valuable since yu have been a hero for our country.{ Thank-you for being a hero. }

Actually both. The reason why Canadian soldiers are among the best in the world, dispite our neglect by successive liberal governments and that one weird Conservative with the giant chin, is because we manage to hold our own with antiquated machinery, weaponry, and other nesseccaties. Abversity builds character.

And Thnk you kindly, I don't think of myself as a hero. I did my part as every other member of my family has in the past and will continue on in the future.

 

[northstar]

Yes, that is how l thought at first, this is just a bunch of terrorists, heck it isn't a country or a religion, just a bunch of crazed fanatics who even criticize other Muslims' for not being pious enough.

Unfortunatly the realities of international terrorist attacks changed things. The Toronto mission planned through a local Mosque to murder innocnet civilians, the Bali Hotel bombings, the London Subway bombings, The foiled plan in London that changed our freedom on an international scale.

This has been planned due to a declaration and an intent that is not only by word but also by action.
Anyone who is a non-Muslim has one of three choices- conversion, subjugation or war. In otherwords, don't contaminate us with your tolerance, either become Muslim, or pay for the privilege of not being abused, or fight us.

War has been declared, in voice and in act.