Richard Dawkins: 'Immoral' not to abort Down's foetuses

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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Is he or is he good at selling himself as one.

I don't think he has to sell himself:


Richard Dawkins Biography
Clinton Richard Dawkins (born March 26, 1941), better known as Richard Dawkins, is a British zoologist, born in Nairobi, in Kenya. He is currently Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at the University of Oxford, and is one of the most prominent biologists alive today.

He is probably best known for his popularisation of the "selfish gene" theory (see "Williams Revolution"), described in his book The Selfish Gene. As an ethologist, with a principal interest in animal behaviour and its relation to natural selection, he popularised the idea that the gene is the principal unit of selection in evolution. This gene point of view also provides a basis for understanding kin selection which was originally suggested by J. B. S. Haldane and expanded by W. D. Hamilton.

Dawkins has been one of the major proponents of sociobiological theory and was the originator of the term meme which spawned the theory of memetics. In the controversy over the interpretation of the theory of evolution that is colloquially called The Darwin Wars, one party is often named for Dawkins and the rival party for Stephen Jay Gould. This reflects the pre-eminence of each as a populariser of the contesting view points, rather than because either is the more substantial or extreme champion of these positions. Dawkins acquiesced in this role from the time of his scathing review (published in January 1985) of Not in Our Genes! by Rose, Kamin and Lewontin.

He is an ardent and outspoken atheist, Honorary Associate of the National Secular Society and Vice-President of the British Humanist Association. In his essay "Viruses of the Mind", he interprets religions using the memetics theory.

See also: Richard Dawkins on Wikiquote.


Biographical information
Dawkins comes from an upper-middle class family which can be found in the pages of Burke's Landed Gentry as "Dawkins of Over Norton". His father, John Clinton Dawkins, was a descendant of the Clinton family which held the Earldom of Lincoln. His mother was Jean Mary Vyvyan Dawkins (nee Ladner).

He received a B.A. degree in biology from Balliol College, Oxford in 1962, followed by an M.A. and D.Phil. in 1966.

He married Marian Stamp, August 19, 1967, but they divorced in 1984. In the same year, Dawkins married Eve Barham 1st June, and they had child(ren), but they also divorced. He married former actor Lalla Ward in 1992, after having been introduced to her by Douglas Adams (who was a colleague of hers on the production team of Dr Who). Dawkins and Adams quickly became friends after he had written a fan letter to Adams.

Meanwhile, he was University of California, Berkeley, assistant professor of zoology, between 1967-1969. Oxford University, lecturer in zoology and fellow of New College, 1970-1990, and later a reader in zoology, 1990-1995. In 1995 he became Charles Simonyi Professor For The Understanding Of Science at Oxford. He was elected a Fellow of the Royal Society in 2001
 

Tecumsehsbones

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So, because he's a good biologist, that automatically makes him a good moral philosopher?

Who'da thunk it? Expertise transfers between fields! Dawkins should be on the English team, because if expertise is transferable, he must be a great midfielder!
 

Colpy

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He wrote: "If your morality is based, as mine is, on a desire to increase the sum of happiness and reduce suffering, the decision to deliberately give birth to a Down's baby, when you have the choice to abort it early in the pregnancy, might actually be immoral from the point of view of the child's own welfare."

Richard Dawkins apologises for causing storm with Down's syndrome tweet | Science | The Guardian

The quote itself proves Dawkins is completely without any footing on this subject.

Are Down's Syndrome people incapable of joy??

Are Down's Syndrome people more susceptable to suffering than "normal" people??

If so, let's see the research that shows these things.

Then, with that as the STARTING point, let's debate the philosophy.

The essence of which is the question: Is the value of life based solely on intelligence??

Personally, I do not believe Dawkins is an atheist. Frankly, I think he sees a vision of God every time he looks in a mirror.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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Truth hurts.


Middle Ages
Whereas theologians and clerics preached sparing their lives, newborn abandonment continued as registered in both the literature record and in legal documents.[8] According to William L. Langer, exposure in the Middle Ages "was practiced on gigantic scale with absolute impunity, noticed by writers with most frigid indifference".[45] At the end of the 12th century, notes Richard Trexler, Roman women threw their newborns into the Tiber river in daylight.[46]

Infanticide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


and that has what to do with Christianity?

Richard Dawkins is a genius

Read "The Selfish Gene" or any of his books.

The ability to write a book and have mindless idiots think it is good, does not make one a genius. It makes one a con artist. Something that Dawkins excels at.

I'm a bigot because I didn't mention every heinous act delivered from every culture that had ever existed?

Sounds like you guys are on a witch hunt here.

Tsk tsk tsk.


You are a bigot because you assigned it to Christianity only in your post.

That statement is just ignorant.

No, your hero Dawkins is ignorant as well as yourself.
 

damngrumpy

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Dawkins is a a prime example of why in some cases we should allow abortion retroactively.
This is too much even for some who would call themselves pro choice.
 

taxslave

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It all boils down to who pays. Raising a normal healthy child is expensive and a huge commitment by its self. Now if a family unit knew that they were going to be the only source of finance for a child they know will be born with severe mental/physical disabilities their decision might very well be different than if they know the government will provide life long care.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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It all boils down to who pays. Raising a normal healthy child is expensive and a huge commitment by its self. Now if a family unit knew that they were going to be the only source of finance for a child they know will be born with severe mental/physical disabilities their decision might very well be different than if they know the government will provide life long care.
That's what societies do, even the poorest and most primitive. Those of you who make a damn career of bitching about it should be slapped with a bill for all the services the gol-dang gummint you hate so much provides to you.
 

#juan

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Dawkins is a a prime example of why in some cases we should allow abortion retroactively.
This is too much even for some who would call themselves pro choice.

Why would anyone have a Downs Syndrome child if they didn't have to? Does Downs Syndrome improve the child?

Nonsense!!!
 

taxslave

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That's what societies do, even the poorest and most primitive. Those of you who make a damn career of bitching about it should be slapped with a bill for all the services the gol-dang gummint you hate so much provides to you.

No they don't and ours never did either until a couple hundred years ago.Anyway I pay enough taxes to keep 3 welfare families going and I don't get much return for that money.
 

mentalfloss

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Jun 28, 2010
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You are a bigot because you assigned it to Christianity only in your post.

I just picked one example off the top of my head.

Sorry that it was the one that touched your nerve.

I'll go for pagan sacrifices next week.


Aaaaaaaanyway.....


The same can be said about some other conditions that can be detected before birth. Down's syndrome, formerly known as mongolism, is one of these. Children with this condition have intellectual disabilities and most will never be able to live in- dependently, but their lives, like those of small children, can be joyful. The risk of having a Down's syndrome child increases sharply with the age of the mother, and for this reason prenatal diagnosis is routinely offered to pregnant women over 35. Again, undergoing the procedure implies that if the test for Down's syndrome is positive, the woman will consider aborting the fetus and, if she still wishes to have another child, will start another pregnancy, which has a good chance of being normal.

Prenatal diagnosis, followed by abortion in selected cases, is common practice in countries with liberal abortion laws and advanced medical techniques. I think this is as it should be. As the arguments of Chapter 6 indicate, I believe that abortion can be justified. Note, however, that neither haemophilia nor Down's syndrome is so crippling as to make life not worth living, from the inner perspective of the person with the condition. To abort a fetus with one of these disabilities, intending to have another child who will not be disabled, is to treat fetuses as interchangeable or replaceable. If the mother has previously decided to have a certain number of children, say two, then what she is doing, in effect, is rejecting one potential child in favour of another. She could, in defence of her actions, say: the loss of life of the aborted fetus is outweighed by the gain of a better life for the normal child who will be conceived only if the disabled one dies.


Taking Life: Humans, by Peter Singer
 

QuebecCanadian

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Just started reading this thread and wanted to get my view down before being influenced by other comments.

When I was pregnant at 39 I had an option to have an amnioscentesis (sp?) done to determine whether my child would have Down syndrome. I chose to do it and I would have aborted if it had come out positive. That would have been mine and the father's choice to make.

Which ever decision is made in a case like this has surely been carefully thought out and is the RIGHT decision for those individuals making it.

Where is the "morality" question in this?
 

Blackleaf

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So was n¡gger, kyke, spick, bohunk, chink, wagon burner, paki, etc etc. Are they today?


From the brilliant BBC sitcom Only Fools and Horses....

The Russian Are Coming (1981)

Market traders Del Boy and his brother Rodney are sheltering from nuclear armageddon with their grandad in their own purpose-buult nuclear fallout shelter:





Grandad: War is hell!!

Del Boy: What?

Grandad: War is hell! Alan Ladd said that.

Del boy: Did he really? Go to sleep.

Grandad: Or was it Audie Murphy?

Del Boy: I dunno, I'm tired.

Grandad: It must have been one of 'em!

Del Boy: Well perhaps they both bloody said it! Now go to sleep will you.

Rodney: No, that was Rock Hudson!

Del Boy:For crying out loud, will you two go to sleep.

Del Boy: Rodney don't keep yer eyes closed - I'm talking to you!

Rodney: What?

Del Boy: I've just been thinking. Might not be a bad idea to survive the next war after all!

Rodney: Why? You got something up yer sleeve Del?

Del Boy: No, no, just a little idea that's been running round in me old brain box, that's all.

Grandad: What's the point? All the animals will be dead. Won't be able to grow nothing 'cos all the earth'll be contaminated! Where we gonna get something to eat?

Del Boy: Bound to be little Paki shop open somewhere!


Hole In One (1985)

Del Boy, Rodney and their great uncle Albert discuss business one morning:

Uncle Albert: The Paki shop won't let us have nothing on tick! Says it's part of his culture!

Rodeny: Don't think it's got anything to do with the 46 quid we already owe 'em do you?

Uncle Albert: Funny enough he mentioned that! Still, it's got nothing to do with me!

Rodney: That's right!

Uncle Albert: :The moment you suggested going down the auction and buying on yer own, I knew there'd be trouble! But I won' say nothing on the matter Rodney.

Rodney: Good!

Uncle Albert: They must have seen him coming!

Del Boy: Good morning Uncle.

Uncle Albert: Oh, morning Del. The Paki won't let us have no breakfast.

Del Boy: That's alright, I haven't much felt like eating, recently. What's the weather like out?

Uncle Albert: It's parky Del!

Del Boy: Good, good! Nice thick frost is there?

Uncle Albert: Bit slippery underfoot, yeah!

Del Boy: Triffic. Lots and lots of flecks of snow in the air is there?

Uncle Albert: Yes, bit of sleet Del, yeah.

Del Boy: Oh cushty! Nice northerly wind howling in from the Urals is there?

Uncle Albert: Cuts right through you Del!

Del Boy: Lovely!! Because today Uncle Albert, owing to young Rodney's foresight and GCEs, while all them other plonkers down the market are selling woolly hats and thermal under-wear we're gonna make a right killing. Do you know why we're gonna make a killing? We ain't got woolly underwear. We've got sun tan lotion!! And we ain't got just a little drop of sun tan lotion! We've got 500 bloody quids worth of the stuff.

Rodney: I've told you I bought it as an investment!

Del Boy: An investment! Menage a trois! In the middle of the worst winter for two million years, with the weathermen laying odds on a new Ice Age, this dipstick goes out and buys out Amber Solaire!

Rodney: The weathermen are also forecasting a boiling hot summer! So come May or June we can sell all of that or swop it for something else!

Del Boy: Like 50 or 60 anoraks maybe!?

Rodney: You won't give me any credit, will you?

Del Boy: Nor will that Paki!
 

DaSleeper

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May 27, 2007
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Amniocentesis, and other test results have been known to be misdiagnosed.
Seventeen years ago my son got the news that his then pregnant wife was going to give birth to a baby with Spina Bifida...and their recommendations were not very attractive.....
They recommended a "Clinic" in Toronto, but he insisted on a second opinion at a real Hospital in Toronto and their result was quite different...after four months and with some real expensive pill which were not covered by any plans.....she gave birth.
I now have a perfectly normal 16 year old grandson.....
If you can call always slouching teens these days "normal":roll:
 

taxslave

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Just started reading this thread and wanted to get my view down before being influenced by other comments.

When I was pregnant at 39 I had an option to have an amnioscentesis (sp?) done to determine whether my child would have Down syndrome. I chose to do it and I would have aborted if it had come out positive. That would have been mine and the father's choice to make.

Which ever decision is made in a case like this has surely been carefully thought out and is the RIGHT decision for those individuals making it.

Where is the "morality" question in this?

Morality is religious spin on a personal decision.