"Crying foul," says the loser of the winner. Sour grapes, something we see more and more of as the short-lived American Empire collapses. Some historians have commented that there never really was an American Empire. US hegemony has been far too short lived to call it an empire, fifty years or less. What we are seeing is the final collapse of the British Empire that extended from approximately 1815 (the Battle of Waterloo) to 1992, transferring from Britain to the US in 1942 (in March of 1942 the last British gold at Fort Knox was transferred to the American pile; within days Lend Lease started). General Giap didn't last three weeks, he beat America and won the war. Canadian General Sherwood Lett was a friend of General Lett from WW2. I spent an afternoon visiting General Lett's widow and saw mementos of the friendship in the home.
Vietnam - Did America Win All the Battles?
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"Crying foul," says the loser of the winner. Sour grapes, something we see more and more of as the short-lived American Empire collapses. Some historians have commented that there never really was an American Empire. US hegemony has been far too short lived to call it an empire, fifty years or less. What we are seeing is the final collapse of the British Empire that extended from approximately 1815 (the Battle of Waterloo) to 1992, transferring from Britain to the US in 1942 (in March of 1942 the last British gold at Fort Knox was transferred to the American pile; within days Lend Lease started). General Giap didn't last three weeks, he beat America and won the war. Canadian General Sherwood Lett was a friend of General Lett from WW2. I spent an afternoon visiting General Lett's widow and saw mementos of the friendship in the home.
"Canada" to their credit, repelled several invasion attempts, but it was not a "Canadian" victory, as such a mindset did not really exist at the time, the war was a British war, our forces were led by British officers, we fought beside British regulars, and the efforts of Canadian militia were largely outweighed by the contribution of natives, led by a non-Canadian, and certainly NOT fighting for Canada.....which did not exist as a nation.
And the war was a draw..........neither side gained anything.
Oh....and in every engagement, poorly trained Canadian militia was outperformed by British regulars, and often by Tecumseh's Indian forces.
Canada propaganda is one thing, historical truth is another.
Incorrect. They thought of themselves as Upper and Lower Canada. You do remember them, eh Colp? You sure do quibble a lot to try and take away credit from the notion of Canada. Put that way “Americans” didn’t win the American Revolution because the US constitution hadn’t been written yet and “America”, or “the USA”, didn’t exist. Methinks the problem is that it was a central Canadian victory and as a maritimer you fear that the notion of Canada prior to 1867 steals your thunder.
The land war within Canada was fought in Upper Canada and Lower Canada with Canadian resources. If you wish to take the position that Canada’s British garrison meant that it was not a Canadian fight, be my guest. You sound like you are saying that nothing was Canadian until after July 1, 1867. I have read and heard this ideology before. It always comes from US Republicans after being told that America lost a war before Vietnam when Canada beat it in 1812-1814.
It was a Canadian defensive victory despite what your Republican managers tell you. A nation attacked that successfully resists the attack and loses no territory is entitled to claim victory. Nowhere does a defensive victory have to include territorial gains to be recognized as a victory. America attacked Canada without cause. America failed to achieve any permanent territorial gains. Ipso facto Canada won. I have never before heard a Canadian so dogmatically stick to the US Republican version of the War of 1812. Did your history degree come from a US institution?
So you say, herring choker. Without the slightest shread of supporting evidence, I note. It is as though by calling down Canada you think you're hurting me? Pretty childish, Colp. But consistent.
Ahhhh, like comparing America to Rwanda and a host of African dictatorships to measure the cause of US crime rates. Gotcha!
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
You really are an idiot. Every time you post you reveal your ignorance, the massive gaps in your knowledge.
The Americans began to see themselves as Americans quite some time before the Revolution, thus the numerous problems between the mother country and the American colonies. The Declaration of Independence was already written.....the constitution was not written until years after the revolution.
Meanwhile, Britain had to kick the Canadas out in 1867 pretty well at gunpoint. Who was a people, and who was not????.
Upper Canada was British....mostly, with an Loyalist element of Americanism that worried the British commanders in 1812. Lower Canada was French.
NOT Canadian, as a nationality, or as a people.
Oh, and down here??? In 1812 the Brits gave the militia in St. Stephen gun powder to defend against the American aggressors.......which the town turned over to the people of Calais, Maine to help in their Fourth of July celebrations. Really.
British troops, British gunpowder, British weapons, British leadership, in concert with some Canadian militia (armed, trained and led by Brits) and a large contingent of natives led by an American Indian fighting for an independent Indian state west of the USA.
WHAT "Canadian resources"??????
That is EXACTLY my position. We were British, through and through, except those that were French, and some refugees from the US War of Independence that had divided loyalties.
One might be able to trace some early sense of Canadian identity after the rebellions of 1837........but the fact remains that Great Britain had to boot us out in 1867..........and not without resistance.
In the War of 1812, Canada as a country did not exist. It was a full blown COLONY of Great Britain. Canada also had no Army, it had BRITISH troops, and some local Militia. It had no Navy.
Even had Great Britain won the war outright, Canada would not have won it, because Canada was not a country and had no armies, etc.
They had to station a LOT of British troops in the Atlantic area, to prevent Nova Scotia from joining with the Americans. Just as they had to do during the American Revolution.
My family was in Nova Scotia BEFORE the American Revolution. I am amazed that so few Canadians appear to know their own history!
Even had Great Britain won the war outright, Canada would not have won it, because Canada was not a country and had no armies, etc.
They had to station a LOT of British troops in the Atlantic area, to prevent Nova Scotia from joining with the Americans. Just as they had to do during the American Revolution.
My family was in Nova Scotia BEFORE the American Revolution. I am amazed that so few Canadians appear to know their own history!
Sticks and stones will break my bones,
But Colpy cannot hurt me.
Exactly my point. To say that people in Canada had no similar feelings is exaggerative hyperbole. It is typical of the US view that all such feelings of patriotism are distinctly American in character - no-one else had them. Unknown to many Americans, one author, name forgotten, wrote that fewer than 20% of the people living in the 13 colonies at the time of the Revolutionary War actively supported it. Things like revolutions and nationalities develop over time. Many people in what is now Canada, especially after 1814, thought of themselves as Canadian.
Who are the “Canadas”, Colp? This is twice you’ve used the expression. And you claim to be a university educated Canadian? You and Joe the Plumber. I think you’re not even Canadian, Clop; you’re a bloody Yank.
Are you arguing that there was something more glorious and worthwhile about being American than about being Canadian? That’s what it sounds like. Maybe you would have preferred that we shot our way out like your people? Your view is one I’ve ever heard before.
The Loyalists were those who fled America after the war, Clop.
In the main, the United Empire Loyalists were those who had been settled in the thirteen colonies at the outbreak of the American Revolution, who remained loyal to and took up the Royal Standard, and who settled in what is now Canada at the end of the war. Homepage for United Empire Loyalists' Association of Canada (UELAC)
Lower Canada was French? You forgot all about Upper and Lower Canada until I referred to them. Your US education is showing.
Maybe not to you, Colp. There were different opinions of course, then and now. You are taking the extreme anti-Canadian side. That position is dominant in US Republican circles. All the way through WW2 and in much of the historical writing about that war, US historians refuse to recognize Canada as an independent nation. Pierre Burton was one author who believed that the War of 1812 resulted in the people of “British North America”, as it was sometimes called, coming to recognize a Canadian national identity more strongly after the war than before. Do you know who Pierre Burton was?
Relevance, Colp. What does that have to do with the issue? The same relevance as Rwanda has to US gun control?
You act as though something as ephemeral as a national identity must at all times be one thing or the other. All of a sudden people woke up one morning and were different from yesterday? Read Pierre Burton, Clop. I am not saying there is no truth to your position. There are still many Royalists here, especially in certain Ontario enclaves and in Victoria, BC. But there was a nascent Canadian identity in 1812, and it is sufficient to allow modern Canadians to claim that Canada beat the US then. If you disagree you are simply trying to put Canadians and put down their national identity. You are no Canadian, Colpy. You’re a Republican Yank.
One might, might one? Booted us out? No political change of that magnitude is unanimous. Amongst other things many people could see losing influence and wealth as power transitioned. But that is a long way from saying Britain pushed us out at gunpoint. It is, however, a divide-and-conquer statement perfectly positioned to stroke Republican egos and hostilities.
Why would Republicans do that? Because America is fascist and one fascist tenet is aggressive international policy. Some US authorities have always been anti-Canadian because the American mentality historically could not separate Canada from England. England was a competing power. Therefore Canada was to be viewed with nothing more generous than benign hostility. It’s like Cuba, there has been no excuse for American hostility towards Cuba for years, but a US citizen caught with a Cuban stamp in his passport can still face up to five years in prison. That is America in a nutshell.
True. But nothing in those historical facts prevented people in Ontario then from thinking of themselves as Canadian, and that is what were are discussing. Maritimers were not part of the equation. Pierre Burton has written extensively about the period and has always managed to convey a sense of the people involved thinking of themselves as what we now call Canadian. That, in turn, permits us to identify with them as Canadians. If you prefer not to, fine.
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True, but he sure does an excellent job of tearing apart your wikiality based, idiotic posts.
Well well. The poster who referred to me as homo-something-or-other? Are you going to respond with criticisms on point or is your participation limited to gay comments?
I guess we can add an inability to read to your list of inadequacies.
I said homoerotic, i didn't call you anything.
Why? Colpy has already decimated your wikiality based nonsense, I'd only be beating a dead horse.
Alright, but do you have proof? No, a proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.
Oh, we had similar feelings..........patriotism galore. In Quebec to the French fact, and in the rest of Canada, our patriotism was directed at Mother England.
You are such a dolt....read a bit about Confederation: Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, booted kicking and screaming out of the nest by Mother England......and you claim to know about Canadian history!!
Yes, dumbass, I know....they include my ancestors, on both sides.
And many of them were much more American than British in outlook, they simply backed the wrong horse, for reasons of loyalty or whatever.
A large percentage of them returned to the USA. Those that stayed kept alive decidedly American ideas in Canadian society.
Yep. Used to be on Front Page Challenge, had a interview show, wrote books on the Great War, the railway, wrote a completely idiotic chapter on the Beothuk (look it up) in My Country.....was NOT a historian.
In university, my Canadian history prof told us right off the bat in Intro to Canadian that anyone that referenced Pierre in an essay flunked.
Which once again demonstrates how little you know. The British Colonial Office was instructed to get rid of us, and worked towards that end tirelessly.
Look it up.
And you are still an idiot.
Obviously.
I love how Tober's hatred of the US is consuming him completely. He is absolutely obsessed. We are in his head every day.
Lovely... just lovely.
Lovely... just lovely.
Real intellectual you are. Did you lay hands on any students before being kicked out of teaching, for being abusive I think you admitted? Or did I get that wrong?
Oh oh, someone is feeling the heat and throwing out the veiled pedo shots.
You're so pathetic.
There goes that Canadian politeness I keep hearing about.
Here's some American politeness, you're a real piece of sh!t, you can't defend your own arguments and throw accusations like that?
Shame.
Not at all. He admitted leaving teaching because he couldn't hold his temper with students. You're the one who mentioned a few posts ago that he's a teacher, and you're also the one with the gutter mind. I'll bet you're not 21 yet.
Ahhhhhh! Dirty mouth eh? That the way "sons of liberty" behave abroad? Matter of fact it is. That's why they are world pariahs.