Let's put Truman on Trial

[Cobalt_Kid]

Oh good grief. Why don't we just hand em some free Nukes and say we are sorry for Imperialism?

Or try talking to them and encourage the moderates to reform the system instead of continuing to scare the living crap out of them.

How many Iranians have died and been tortured with western assistance as compared to the other way around? It's nuts to keep thinking they're the extremists when it's western policies that have had extreme affects on the entire region.

 

[Colpy]

I've heard about all those things. They still don't justify the atomic bombs.

What justified atomic bombs was all those things.....and continued resistance.

Or try talking to them and encourage the moderates to reform the system instead of continuing to scare the living crap out of them.

How many Iranians have died and been tortured with western assistance as compared to the other way around? It's nuts to keep thinking they're the extremists when it's western policies that have had extreme affects on the entire region.

Even the CIA and SAVAK could not match the current Iranian brand of psychosis.

1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Or try talking to them and encourage the moderates to reform the system instead of continuing to scare the living crap out of them.

I'm not against meaningful dialogue as long as its meaningful and not a way of stalling everyone until they get that nuke they're building in the bunker supposedly built for making Isotopes

How many Iranians have died and been tortured with western assistance as compared to the other way around? It's nuts to keep thinking they're the extremists when it's western policies that have had extreme affects on the entire region.

How many gays have been hung, how many people quietly murdered when they rose up in the Arab Spring?

Give your head a shake.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

What justified atomic bombs was all those things.....and continued resistance.



Even the CIA and SAVAK could not match the current Iranian brand of psychosis.

1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which happened during a war with Iraq that was backed by western powers that killed hundereds of thousands of Iranians some by WMDs.

Sure the rhetoric here is that the Iranians are ruthless extremists, but I bet you that many there feel exactly the same way towards us and possibly with better reason. We're not going to encourage the more moderate elements of Iranian society to assert their power over the Imams as long as they think we're all out to destroy them.

 

[JLM]

Or try talking to them and encourage the moderates to reform the system instead of continuing to scare the living crap out of them.

How many Iranians have died and been tortured with western assistance as compared to the other way around? It's nuts to keep thinking they're the extremists when it's western policies that have had extreme affects on the entire region.

I'm not an expert when it comes to eastern culture vs. western culture, but don't blame me for saying that statement is "out to lunch" when you consider that part of that "eastern culture" is to stone young women to death for being raped. Anyone who defends behaviour like that is either of unsound mind or criminally inclined!

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Which happened during a war with Iraq that was backed by western powers that killed hundereds of thousands of Iranians some by WMDs.

Sure the rhetoric here is that the Iranians are ruthless extremists, but I bet you that many there feel exactly the same way towards us and possibly with better reason. We're not going to encourage the more moderate elements of Iranian society to assert their power over the Imams as long as they think we're all out to destroy them.

I know I'm wasting my time here, but.....

The hell with it, I can't do this. You are a dolt.

 

[petros]

And after the A-bombs they were willing to surrender unconditionally. The whole purpose of military force is to bring the enemy around to your way of thinking. So the bombs worked as intended.

Bravo Sierra!

After Tokyo was razed to the ground killing 500,000 the ball was already rolling and gaining speed for unconditional surrender.

Justifying the testing on civilian targets was/is ludicrous.

The outcome of those tests are the reason why there hasn't been any strategic use in the past 68 years.

 

[skookumchuck]

Or try talking to them and encourage the moderates to reform the system instead of continuing to scare the living crap out of them.

How many Iranians have died and been tortured with western assistance as compared to the other way around? It's nuts to keep thinking they're the extremists when it's western policies that have had extreme affects on the entire region.

Obviously the west needs you to take care of all our connections with the world. You need to hurry though.

 

[hunboldt]

Bravo Sierra!

After Tokyo was razed to the ground killing 500,000 the ball was already rolling and gaining speed for unconditional surrender.

Justifying the testing on civilian targets was/is ludicrous.

The outcome of those tests are the reason why there hasn't been any strategic use in the past 68 years.

Although after Tokyo was razed would have been an ideal time for Japan to surrender. Their Navy was overwhelmed, they were cut off in the home islands.
Military governance at its finest to keep on fighting.

 

[gopher]

Even the CIA and SAVAK could not match the current Iranian brand of psychosis.

1988 executions of Iranian political prisoners - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re your article from Wiki, it's editorial board says this:



This article has multiple issues. Please help improve it or discuss these issues on the talk page. This article's tone or style may not reflect the encyclopedic tone used on Wikipedia. (April 2013) This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. The specific problem is: POV -- some sections sound like a commercial, and not like an encyclopedic article.. (April 2013)





There are reason for that: first, there is no proof 30,000 were killed. There are some indication 5,000 were executed of which many were pro Saddam Hussein terrorists:

"IN THE summer of 1988, when its revolution was nearly a decade old and the disastrous war with Iraq was winding down, the Iranian government killed around 5,000 political prisoners."


Iran, 1988: What happened? | The Economist



Many of them belong to MeK which is a terrorist group:


"Many of the group’s members are believed to have been executed in Iran in 1988."


Iran’s Revolutionary Guard: MEK Deaths in Iraq ‘Divine Vengeance’ | Iran Pulse: Must-Reads from Iran Today



As we have discussed before, MeK is a Marxist left wing terrorist group:


People's Mujahedin of Iran - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


''MEK ... is an Iranian leftist revolutionary organization ... Founded on September 5, 1965 by a group of left-leaning Muslim Iranian university students as an Islamic and Marxist political mass movement, the MEK was originally devoted to armed struggle against the Shah of Iran, capitalism, and Western imperialism ...''




Being the conservative that you are, I'm sure that if a Marxist terrorist group decided to kill Canadian civilians you would be the first one to applaud their capture and execution. Therefore, if you live by principle, you would applaud what Iran did to those terrorists.

 

[petros]

Although after Tokyo was razed would have been an ideal time for Japan to surrender. Their Navy was overwhelmed, they were cut off in the home islands.
Military governance at its finest to keep on fighting.

What was it again that the Brit pork chop guy that smoked cigars said post Dunkirk?

Something about beaches, fields, the oceans, never surrendering and fighting with the butts of broken beer bottles because it's they've got?

 

[JLM]

Which happened during a war with Iraq that was backed by western powers that killed hundereds of thousands of Iranians some by WMDs.

Sure the rhetoric here is that the Iranians are ruthless extremists, but I bet you that many there feel exactly the same way towards us and possibly with better reason. We're not going to encourage the more moderate elements of Iranian society to assert their power over the Imams as long as they think we're all out to destroy them.

Pretty thoughtless post, but I don't recall instances of young women being stoned to death in our country for getting raped!

 

[petros]

Pretty thoughtless post, but I don't recall instances of young women being stoned to death in our country for getting raped!

If the small c born yesterday christians keeping voting in fanatics, it won't be long until we're like that.

 

[JLM]

If the small c born yesterday christians keeping voting in fanatics, it won't be long until we're like that.

I'm not one for "borrowing" trouble. -

 

[petros]

Borrowing? We've been there already within your lifetime.

 

[JLM]

Borrowing? We've been there already within your lifetime.

Did we (in Canada) stone anyone to death for being raped?

 

[petros]

Not all that long ago rape wasn't considered that serious of an offence which was an emotional death sentence or driven to suicide.

Within your lifetime and even mine it was illegal to be gay.

We're no f*cking Saints.

 

[JLM]

Not all that long ago rape wasn't considered that serious of an offence which was an emotional death sentence or driven to suicide.

Within your lifetime and even mine it was illegal to be gay.

We're no f*cking Saints.

Yep, and I was as guilty as the next guy. Back in the 60s in one of the camps there was a gay cook or flunkie, can't remember exactly which and I hated the guy as much as everyone else. There was just no tolerance for them then.

They were as "persona non grata" then as pedophiles are now.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Surely even your cock-eyed sort of reasoning can see that frying civilians with atomic bombs must be against somebody's rules. How about the lingering deaths from radiation that are still happening?
As long as we are bringing up mass deaths, don't forget the millions killed by the saturation bombing of North Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia.

And yet you still can't cite the rules you claim they're against.

A couple of things you should realize about Hiroshima and Nagasaki is that they were purely CIVILIAN targets.. with no military value whatsoever. It has been speculated that both cities were protected from conventional air attack.. to preserve them as a pure test bed for the Atomic bomb.

The intent of this bombing was not really ending the war... as that was already over for all intent and purpose.. or saving American lives. The intent was solely one of terror, and aimed at the post war world political environment.

I sometimes wonder if Roosevelt would have dropped the Bomb. We'll never know for sure.. but the mere fact he had opened surrender discussions with the Japanese through intermediaries indicates to me he would NOT. Japan would have surrendered under the same conditions it did after the attacks.. and the U.S. would have had its exclusive nuclear franchise for the next 5 years in any case.

But Roosevelt was a great President.. Truman, despite all the spin of his being a 'plain talking, salt of the earth Missourian', was really nothing more than a petty ex-haberdasher, a political hack, under whose aegis the red baiting witch hunts of the HUAC got full sway. He really was a very mediocre and unimpressive man.

Certainly the brutality and lawlessness of the Japanese military occupations cannot be used as an excuse... unless you subscribe to the principle that there are NO rules in war.. and two wrongs make a right.

What a load of rubbish.

"Hiroshima was a city of considerable military importance. It contained the 2nd Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. To quote a Japanese report, 'Probably more than a thousand times since the beginning of the war did the Hiroshima citizens see off with cries of "Banzai" the troops leaving from the harbor.'"

"The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great war-time importance because of its many and varied industries, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials. The narrow long strip attacked was of particular importance because of its industries."

The Selection of the Target | The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki | Historical Documents | atomicarchive.com

Bravo Sierra!

After Tokyo was razed to the ground killing 500,000 the ball was already rolling and gaining speed for unconditional surrender.

Justifying the testing on civilian targets was/is ludicrous.

The outcome of those tests are the reason why there hasn't been any strategic use in the past 68 years.

Now THAT's pure comedy gold. You just said the Japanese were not willing to surrender unconditionally. Post #54. Now you're saying they were on the edge of doing so.

People whose primary motive is to hate or blame a particular party so often argue themselves into laughable contradictions.

 

[hunboldt]

And yet you still can't cite the rules you claim they're against.


What a load of rubbish.

"Hiroshima was a city of considerable military importance. It contained the 2nd Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops. To quote a Japanese report, 'Probably more than a thousand times since the beginning of the war did the Hiroshima citizens see off with cries of "Banzai" the troops leaving from the harbor.'"

"The city of Nagasaki had been one of the largest sea ports in southern Japan and was of great war-time importance because of its many and varied industries, including the production of ordnance, ships, military equipment, and other war materials. The narrow long strip attacked was of particular importance because of its industries."

The Selection of the Target | The Atomic Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki | Historical Documents | atomicarchive.com


Now THAT's pure comedy gold. You just said the Japanese were not willing to surrender unconditionally. Post #54. Now you're saying they were on the edge of doing so.

People whose primary motive is to hate or blame a particular party so often argue themselves into laughable contradictions.

One of the unfortunate parts of modern warfare is that there is no ' surrender pause' possible, once you have whipped a society into total war. Japan knew this in Dec 1941 when they made the CHOICE to declare war, rather than exploit the position of being a supplier nation in a world at war, with dominance over it's region. Japan had 'surrendered democracy' in the late 1930's for a shot at xenophobia.

At the end of November 1941 it had achieved all the Empire it needed. Ironically, it was sitting on all the oil it needed.