Americans Say “Too Much Welfare” Number One Cause Of Persistent Poverty…

[Sal]

Income level is only half the equation, spending level is the other half!

That's for sure if you are a single mother on welfare or (assistance as they like to call it) in Ontario with two kids it looks like you get: $1000 plus $100 transportation, plus $750 child tax benefit. ($370 each child).per month...Does the government hide this stuff...how come I can't find anything. Anyone else got any stats?

Good luck surviving on that. It's even lower than I thought.

Now I'm curious, what kind of psychological components that exist for those that do have access to alternatives?

not sure what you are asking here CM...just know that performing costly lapbands on people does not address the issue of why they were morbidly obese in the first place. I see little point in performing the surgery if the root of the problem has not been addressed. And the root of the problem is usually emotional.

That's a choice Sal (assuming that they have access to a grocer)

which is a big assumption for inner city because they don't

C'mon.. Are you saying that some kids are told that they can only turn to fast food outlets or convenience stores?

I am saying you can not expect a 4 to 12 year old to be a little adult go out grocery shopping come home and cook some meals... I am saying you are placing a huge burden on impoverished children who may or may not be coping with a burden already too big for them and then expecting them to rise above it when a regular middle class kid is coddled to death. But if you are poor kid there are just so many challenges placed upon them already. Are some loved and cared for sure...poverty doesn't mean a lack of love just as middle class does not mean a balanced home life either. Same challenges plus poverty or more.

A fine line between a hand-up and perpetuating full-on dependency

not a fine line, it's school that will save or lose them but school is a middle class institution so they already have problems adjusting from the get go when you leave a house in the morning with no food in you and sit beside Johnny whose mum has packed his little lunch and snacks, put him in clean clothes and dropped him at the door.

I don't know a single person that hasn't experienced a broad spectrum of economic scenarios all the way from well off to living on Ramen noodles many times a week.

my guy did come from dire poverty, he made it...but he didn't have drugged out parents, the space between rich and poor was more narrow and you didn't need a grade 12 education to work in a factory...the world has changed.

You're assuming that people can't learn or adapt without someone leading them by the nose

perhaps if leading them by the nose means extra attention and financial support and giving them a desire to achieve. It isn't the money that will ultimately pull them out although they do need that support...but rather it is mentoring that really does it. So yeah, if you want to term mentoring as being led by the nose I'm up with that.

A tragic scenario, but at the extreme risk of sounding heartless, what is society to do?

Short of removing the kids from the home and spaying/neutering the bio parents, how is society to respond?

feed them, clothe them, protect them like it was your kid or my kid...don't punish the kids for the sins of the father.

You are generalizing,

of course I am, so are you. This is your opinion and my opinion, neither of us are psychologists or sociologists or social workers or likely have crack-addled friends. Neither of us know crap about poverty in today's world. I spend over $100 on fresh food, grain fed chicken and beef without additives per week. I live in an air conditioned condo with a pool and tennis courts. I know nothing about what it is like to be truly poor.

but lets also not forget that decisions were/are made by the mom and dad and there are consequences. To me, it absolutely defies logic how someone can make a conscious decision to have a family when they cannot functionally afford one.

They do not make a conscious decision. They have no idea about the ways of the world except what they have seen at home. If you ask a kid who is on assistance what he will be doing when he grows up he thinks he is going to be sitting at home, smacking his wife around, and watching TV. Or he will tell you he is going to be a doctor or a lawyer he is just a kid like any other kid.

I, on the other hand have seen first-hand a man pay for all the groceries for a young mother standing in line beside him... Many times people coming out of Safeway with a couple extra bags of milk, cheese, bread and fruit and drop it in a strangers lap.

that is so cool, yes there are many people who are kind. At the House of Friendship people drive up and drop off amazing clothes, and food donations...there are kind people, just not enough who understand what it is to be beaten down to where one just can't cope so they sniff that line and say screw the screaming baby in the crib whose diapers are from yesterday.

I don't understand it...but I can acknowledge they need help not to be smacked down further and I doubt I would survive that type of existence so kudos to those who do and build a better life for themselves and the next generation.

 

[lone wolf]

I get a kick out of people who think a life on government assistance is easy

 

[Nuggler]

Quoth the Capt: :It would be impossible for the gvt not to know. 9 trillion isn't something that even the lowest level clerk would not notice.

The lowest level clerk would probably notice, bring it to the attention of their supervisor and be told to shut up..........:lol: Hide it. Put it in the broom closet.

I get a kick out of people who think a life on government assistance is easy

I'd like to kick people who believe that.


But , hey, we're talking bout muricans, so anything's possible.

 

[Christianna]

Many times people coming out of Safeway with a couple extra bags of milk, cheese, bread and fruit and drop it in a strangers lap.

I have never seen anyone here do that! The box for donated food in the stores is only full at Xmas time. I also know what people on disability get in their Xmas boxes and it isn't much. The boxes do not come from the government they come from a local charity. They get their usual dole plus $30.00 for Xmas early then have to wait a month and a half for the next dole from the government. The man I know gets $800.00 per month his wife gets $600.00. the rent is $500.00, they then have all the usual bills that anyone else has and have to eat as well. Unlike many of his friends on disability he has no cell phone, nor has she, no car, no computer, they do have TV, people can not live without some sort of entertainment! He can cook, she can't because she didn't handle her money well before she met him she never had much food to have to learn to cook so she went hungry a lot. He however is not the norm, she is. Neither of them smoke, drink or do drugs again unlike many of the others on disability. Disability means they can't work. If they could work they are allowed to earn (I think it is now) $800.00. but that amount just went up. There has not been a raise in the amount for at least 8 years but groceries and rents continue to go up. In fact the last raise only encouraged the landlords to raise rents by that amount. When the Campbell government first came to power in BC he said they were going to take a look at the disability payments and make sure people were really disabled. Many of them with mental disabilities were so scared they actually flung themselves off the bridge. Well it did get them off the government dole so the government counted that as a win win! I don't think we could live on so little, especially since my husband has special dietary needs that also cost more.

 

[captain morgan]

I have never seen anyone here do that! The box for donated food in the stores is only full at Xmas time.

I see it here and used to see it a lot in Vancouver, especially at the downtown Safeway on Davie and the Safeway on West Broadway... Interestingly enough, both are in neighborhoods where most of the accommodations are rentals, meaning it's not the middle and upper class that do this. It's everyday people that aren't making money hand over fist

I also know what people on disability get in their Xmas boxes and it isn't much. The boxes do not come from the government they come from a local charity.

Sorry to hear that?

They get their usual dole plus $30.00 for Xmas early then have to wait a month and a half for the next dole from the government.

They have to wait 45 days between cheques? Is that what you're saying?

The man I know gets $800.00 per month his wife gets $600.00. the rent is $500.00, they then have all the usual bills that anyone else has and have to eat as well. Unlike many of his friends on disability he has no cell phone, nor has she, no car, no computer, they do have TV, people can not live without some sort of entertainment!

...And?

I know 2 brothers that live in their old family home in town (been paid-off for years) that both collect welfare and both work cash jobs under the table. In fact, they could sell their home for just the value of the land for over 1/2 million.

What does this mean?... Just cause we both can point to examples doesn't mean squat about generalizing to everyone

He can cook

OMG!!!

There ought to be a social service that can spare him from this atrocity

she can't because she didn't handle her money well before she met him she never had much food to have to learn to cook so she went hungry a lot.

Big surprise hearing that... And now because of her poor decisions in the past, I am somehow supposed to move heaven and earth to help pull her fat out of the fire AGAIN?

He however is not the norm, she is.

.. See the common denominator here?

There has not been a raise in the amount for at least 8 years but groceries and rents continue to go up. In fact the last raise only encouraged the landlords to raise rents by that amount.

Guess what else goes up?
Taxes
Midnight moves
Unpaid rents
Utilities
Repairs
Replacing old or damaged items in a rental unit

When the Campbell government first came to power in BC he said they were going to take a look at the disability payments and make sure people were really disabled.

This ought to tell you something.

Many of them with mental disabilities were so scared they actually flung themselves off the bridge. Well it did get them off the government dole so the government counted that as a win win!

Got a link to 'the many'?

 

[JLM]

I have never seen anyone here do that! The box for donated food in the stores is only full at Xmas time. I also know what people on disability get in their Xmas boxes and it isn't much. The boxes do not come from the government they come from a local charity. They get their usual dole plus $30.00 for Xmas early then have to wait a month and a half for the next dole from the government. The man I know gets $800.00 per month his wife gets $600.00. the rent is $500.00, they then have all the usual bills that anyone else has and have to eat as well. Unlike many of his friends on disability he has no cell phone, nor has she, no car, no computer, they do have TV, people can not live without some sort of entertainment! He can cook, she can't because she didn't handle her money well before she met him she never had much food to have to learn to cook so she went hungry a lot. He however is not the norm, she is. Neither of them smoke, drink or do drugs again unlike many of the others on disability. Disability means they can't work. If they could work they are allowed to earn (I think it is now) $800.00. but that amount just went up. There has not been a raise in the amount for at least 8 years but groceries and rents continue to go up. In fact the last raise only encouraged the landlords to raise rents by that amount. When the Campbell government first came to power in BC he said they were going to take a look at the disability payments and make sure people were really disabled. Many of them with mental disabilities were so scared they actually flung themselves off the bridge. Well it did get them off the government dole so the government counted that as a win win! I don't think we could live on so little, especially since my husband has special dietary needs that also cost more.

Yep, I think there needs to be a lot of evening up when it comes to welfare. I would like the ones who are disabled and can't work get a 50% raise immediately and a cost of living there after. The ones who can work should be cut off immediately or made to perform necessary work in the community and if they do, pay them $10 an hour.

 

[L Gilbert]

I think some are not considering that when a person is busy with 2 or 3 jobs, there's a reason why they have those 2 or 3 jobs, and it's usually to do with keeping a roof overhead and having food to eat.
Having 2 or 3 jobs takes up a lot of time; time that could be spent cooking healthy food. In the meantime, there's laundry, clothing to buy for growing kids, school supplies, etc. besides food and shelter; all of which are the reason for having 2 or 3 jobs in the first place. So the parent thinks, "Hey, I can hit the McD's on the way home and save myself 40 minutes to get a little laundry done", or "help little Joey figure out his homework". So a little malnutrition and obesity is introduced to the family.
Malnutrition causes deficiencies in the brain. Couple that deficiency with the idea that one 's family has been poor all your lifetime, you have had to quit school and help keep the family alive, so your education level is low, you have an immense amount of subjectivity and worrying about having the time to feed your own kids, keeping them from joining gangs who are always looking for recruits, pay for shelter and food, do laundry, etc.. And by the time you finish work, you are simply too tired to do anything but sit in front of the 25 year old tv with a blank stare.
You pretty much have to notice that a lot of these poor people simply have lost the capacity to see opportunities that are taken for granted by everyone else and break out of the pattern. It's pretty easy to say, there's lots of food available, they could just move to a better place, etc. That is stuff just off the top of my head, so I've probably missed a bunch of factors. But yeah, it ain't so complicated. Any wonder why people scam welfare? F'n money, that's why. More money to drop a job and get more time to spend on family.

 

[Christianna]

This will probably get me booted off this board ............................

Big surprise hearing that... And now because of her poor decisions in the past, I am somehow supposed to move heaven and earth to help pull her fat out of the fire AGAIN?

You try acting normal after being medicated for 25 years for a mental illness you didn't have! Its only been about 3 years not that the proper diagnosis has been made. From about age 13 on until she was nearly 40 she was treated for schizophrenia, which she doesn't have.

Are you always such an ***? As I have said and you prove my point right wingers have no heart, no empathy and should not be allowed around anyone who has any sort of problems!

 

[DurkaDurka]

I get a kick out of people who think a life on government assistance is easy

I think someone would have to be incredibly naive and ignorant to think it's easy street, living on assistance in Canada. I know I couldn't do it.

 

[darkbeaver]

The bankers are without question most enormous welfare bums ever to walk the earth. If the poor are to be blamed it is only because they have not yet eaten the goddamned lazy good for nothing international bankers.

 

[Cliffy]

The bankers are without question most enormous welfare bums ever to walk the earth. If the poor are to be blamed it is only because they have not yet eaten the goddamned lazy good for nothing international bankers.

I doubt all that evil would taste very good. Probably get some awful disease or at least a bad case of gas or the trots.

 

[BaalsTears]

Many Americans are too ignorant to find food for themselves. That's the result of poor education and lack of critical skills. That in itself is imo the failure of the American public school system. The American public school system is controlled by the teachers unions. The teachers unions are controlled by hard core leftists. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Many Americans are too ignorant to find food for themselves. That's the result of poor education and lack of critical skills. That in itself is imo the failure of the American public school system. The American public school system is controlled by the teachers unions. The teachers unions are controlled by hard core leftists. Draw your own conclusions.

My conclusion is that you don't know much about American public schools.

 

[BaalsTears]

My conclusion is that you don't know much about American public schools.

This is a great opportunity for you and me to debate the issue we have both raised.

Now you have made an assertion about my knowledge. What is the basis of your assertion?

Do you Canadians hold the American public school system in high regard or do you think it is inferior?

How does Canada do on the OECD PISA tests? American students rank low in most subjects especially math and science. I think this American failure on an objective international test year after year after year tells us that the American public school system is inferior to its peer foreign competitors.

In California the public school system has generally failed the Latino kids. Almost half drop out and the other half go on to gangbang.

 

[gopher]

Agree 100% = too much welfare for the rich is the problem.

See previous links to wealthy elites sheltering over $20 trillion in overseas accounts.


But it is their money. They earned it and now the government wants to take it to spend on whatever.If the tax system was even close to fair this wouldn't happen.

The fact that they are allowed this type of welfare proves the system is not fair and is slanted in favor of the wealthy elites. If the system has been equitable everybody would be fully in compliance with the tax law and there would be no deficit.

 

[Cliffy]

This is a great opportunity for you and me to debate the issue we have both raised.

Now you have made an assertion about my knowledge. What is the basis of your assertion?

Do you Canadians hold the American public school system in high regard or do you think it is inferior?

Bones is American. The US government under Dubbya cut spending for education and most Republicans supported that.

 

[BaalsTears]

Bones is American. The US government under Dubbya cut spending for education and most Republicans supported that.

What you haven't done is to deny that the American public school system is inferior. That's because no Canadian doubts my the truth of the matter asserted.

 

[Cliffy]

What you haven't done is to deny that the American public school system is inferior. That's because no Canadian doubts my the truth of the matter asserted.

I don't know if it is inferior or not. I just know that both have been deteriorating for decades for the reasons George stated.

 

[captain morgan]

What you haven't done is to deny that the American public school system is inferior. That's because no Canadian doubts my the truth of the matter asserted.

I can't comment on the American education system, but here in Canuckistan, it seems to be deteriorating in quality, deliverables and student results for a long time now.

 

[Cannuck]

I can't comment on the American education system, but here in Canuckistan, it seems to be deteriorating in quality, deliverables and student results for a long time now.

I disagree. I have one daughter that graduated three years ago and two that will graduate in two years and I see nothing wrong with the education they are getting. I think the problem is the older generations are judging the system on outdated parameters. I recall a few weeks back, some of the old guys at coffee row complaining that the kids today can't write. I said " They can't shoe horses either"