Is Welfare The Government’s Fault?

[Sal]

@ Sal:

You've said a lot, but in the end, it really comes down to a few issue including personal responsibility and expectations that the gvt is all things to all people under all circumstances.

No I am too fiscally conservative to want that. There is only so much money to go around and when the pot is empty...well... it is.

We can't legislate responsible parenting, nor would we see social services stepping in and taking kids from every dysfunctional family environment.

True it is not feesible

I also couldn't help notice the comment about kids having to work to get through school: the family environment being one issue unto itself, I have to ask the question about what are these kids spending the money they have earned on?... Food for home? Basic clothing items?... In the back of my mind, I can't help but notice that there are few kids that aren't walking around with iPods and iPhones.

I don't have a problem with that. If the kid works to earn the IPOD or phone that's all good. I worked for my clothes and all the extras when I went to school too. My parents could provide the basics all extra I did myself and many kids do the same today.

Same can be said about teenage pregnancy... Sad to understand that it is an issue that has been around for decades, but other than the personal responsibility issue, what do we do?.. I can't imagine that gvt institute a program of chastity belts - so that leaves us with the hormonally charged kids understand the ramifications of their actions.

What we do, is quite simple and yet very complex. We get them when they are young. We ensure that they are fed at school or in after school programs. We don't humiliate them when their little projects suck compared to Tammy's because Tammy's mum or dad helped her. We don't send huge amounts of homework home with them and then punish them when their books are lost. We build a trust and help them to want better, build up their self esteem so they know they can do better. Support them so they know they are not alone. It is simple but oh so hard to put in place, and yet I meet people who do this every day. Everyone can make a difference with a bit of understanding love and tolerance. We can't save all the kids but we can save the one right in front of us. We can change their world. We can.

Last point; the comment about ghetto building... I do agree that this potentially exists (likely), but these suggestions are brought forth as functional suggestions targeted at motivating people to get away from that communal environment and take control of their own lives... As it stands, the existing system is clearly of limited effectiveness in that we have an entire demographic that represents generations of welfare recipients...

Agreed it's just that segregation by experience we know it does not work...look to the south at their ghettos or to our reservations.

Whose fault is that, and more importantly, who can actually change that situation?

i think we need to get over fault and look at solutions...and we all do make a difference, we really do

You'd think that this reality would be enough to force a change to the delivery of the services in the system

i thought so before because I am middle class but now I know more about the mind set so I have shifted my expectation. Thanks for the awesome discussion. You have made me think, by challenging me to examine further and so I thank you.

 

[JLM]

Fact. Just drive past the welfare office. There are also numerous welfare mums who have boyfriends that work in camp making $80G + while the taxpayer is providing a place for them while they are in town.
Ever go to a bar on Welfare Wednesday? Try it and watch your tax dollars in action.

I guess one way to combat that is more vouchers less cash, but then P.E.T. would do flip flops in his grave!

Is Welfare The Government’s Fault?


.

Mostly NO! We have to encourage individuals to take more responsibility. When you've done all you can to provide for yourself and still need help there is no shame in asking. It should be regarded as a temporary thing and in some cases a loan rather than a handout. Government today is "handcuffed" by what our illustrious P.M. of 30 years ago, brought down - "rights" for the wrong people and as a result the right people are wronged. In short if there is ANY way you can work you should, before requesting welfare, and you should be willing to learn new skills if necessary.

 

[Walter]

If you give it away they will come.

 

[Sal]

There are also numerous welfare mums who have boyfriends that work in camp making $80G + while the taxpayer is providing a place for them while they are in town.

Yes, true that. So then the problem here is really the guy who is banging the welfare mum, living at her place for free.He gets a party girl, true he has to put up with the brats she has but hey an extra beer and the noise is bearable.

Next step will be, she get's pregnant again he will stay for a bit and then he will leave her and his kid, now she gets a few bucks more a month and moves onto the next guy hoping he will actually stay and love her and not abuse her and the cycle begins again.

Ever go to a bar on Welfare Wednesday?

i don't go to bars, at least not the kind where you can't sit down on the toilet seat because it hasn't been cleaned for a year or so.

Try it and watch your tax dollars in action.

yes it is awful isn't it...drives me crazy....what would the solution be

If you give it away they will come.

Simple statement to a very complex problem. So I will say, yes, quite right.

 

[SLM]

Thanks SLM; I appreciate the starting comment... I've never been accused of being PC nor shying away from asking the hard questions in a blunt manner (although I am improving).

I call 'em like I see 'em, lol.

I try to boil things down to the lowest common denominator and in the simplest terms, that said, let me pose my position this way:

IF the welfare system didn't exist and the responsibility was assumed by family members (Mom, Dad, bro or sis)... Would we likely see this same mentality or 'system' in practice?

Nope. But then again, on the other side of things, we may see quite a few people actually starve to death in that scenario too. Just because you're related to someone by blood doesn't necessarily mean they have your back or that they themselves are even able to help in any meaningful way.

Direct question to you: If your kids needed this help (in my mythical system of family-based assistance), would you suggest that they move home and work with them to move forward or would you write endless cheques to fund them to spare them the social stigma of living in mom's basement?

In the end, I see a huge difference between a hand-up and a hand-out.

LOL. Have you been spying on me? I've got one in the guest room as we speak...and things are progressing, albeit somewhat slowly, on the moving forward part. But there are/were some health issues that needed to be dealt with first.

Having said that though I have 'written cheques' in the past and to be honest I've had them written to me by family elders when I was younger and struggling somewhat, as a lot of young people do from time to time. I see it as a pay it forward kind of deal. Of course they aren't the endless kind of cheques of which you speak though.

That is sooo harsh.

Makes me really angry to be honest.



I can see the problem here (for the guy) but also understand the gvt's position.

Too bad, you'd think that the system would be set up to assist people like that, but perhaps the optics from gvt was that a portion of the funds would go to the mom heading back to help the daughter.. (caveat: Sad case, but I would ask where is the assistance from the gvt of the nation where the daughter is located?)

I think though it does illustrate my point that we have a one solution system for varying degrees of problems. Yes, I can understand the governments position on that point as well yet at the same time I do wonder why don't do more to help people before they hit the bottom rung of the ladder.

As another example here in Ontario the welfare program has a 50% credit against earnings after three months of being on assistance. So it behooves people not to have any earnings for the first three months because they would be deducted dollar for dollar. I understand the concept of the 50% credit, and it's not eternal either of course, but would it not make more sense to have that from the offset? Is it not a savings to the taxpayer and encourages those to seek out employment faster? Someone with a more limited skill set may need to take whatever employment they can and let's be honest, working for minimum wage particularly if it's part time is barely any more than you'd be earning on welfare. So for someone younger or someone that only has had one employer and is now without a job, that kind of financial assistance combined with other assistance from the caseworker in what the next step would be would be the greatest bang for the taxpayer's dollar that I think you can get.

Similarly if we have the odd bricklayer like mentioned above who needs one time assistance and can reasonably prove his 'story', I'd say give him one or two months of assistance. This guy is not a drain on the system.

N
i think we need to get over fault and look at solutions...and we all do make a difference, we really do

I like that, a lot. I often say the only purpose to blame is to figure out how to not make the same mistake again. Beyond that it's pointless. But people get really caught up in it, you can be trying to find solutions to a problem and they just stay stuck on who causes it.

 

[Sal]

I like that, a lot. I often say the only purpose to blame is to figure out how to not make the same mistake again. Beyond that it's pointless. But people get really caught up in it, you can be trying to find solutions to a problem and they just stay stuck on who causes it.

Comes a point when it's all about accomplishing the goal and reaching target.

When managing people it can cause huge problems when energy is spent trying to cover butt. Much better to circumvent that and place the limited energy on tasking, and goal achievement.

 

[lone wolf]

If you give it away they will come.

Very true - and certainly NOT monopolized by folk of meagre means. That's human nature

 

[Spade]

If you give it away they will come.

"Are there no workhouses?”
-E. Scrooge
Now that was great social commentary!

 

[Cliffy]

Does anybody have the stats on corporate welfare and how it compares to social welfare?

 

[captain morgan]

No I am too fiscally conservative to want that. There is only so much money to go around and when the pot is empty...well... it is.

Too true.. We are just about at the point where we can change the name from Canada to Old Mother Hubbard

I don't have a problem with that. If the kid works to earn the IPOD or phone that's all good. I worked for my clothes and all the extras when I went to school too. My parents could provide the basics all extra I did myself and many kids do the same today.

Nor do I, in fact I applaud the effort... My point related to the observation that kids are working to cover the basic necessities as opposed to cell phones and other items... Fact is, you don't need an iPod or $200 pair of Nikes in order to survive

What we do, is quite simple and yet very complex. We get them when they are young. We ensure that they are fed at school or in after school programs. We don't humiliate them when their little projects suck compared to Tammy's because Tammy's mum or dad helped her. We don't send huge amounts of homework home with them and then punish them when their books are lost. We build a trust and help them to want better, build up their self esteem so they know they can do better. Support them so they know they are not alone. It is simple but oh so hard to put in place, and yet I meet people who do this every day. Everyone can make a difference with a bit of understanding love and tolerance. We can't save all the kids but we can save the one right in front of us. We can change their world. We can.

Agreed, but again, this comes down to 'regulating' (for lack of a better term) family dynamics and functionality... Does it even make sense to consider that?

Agreed it's just that segregation by experience we know it does not work...look to the south at their ghettos or to our reservations.

Fair enough, but we are also seeing that the current system of 'integration' (again, for lack of a better term) isn't working either.

i think we need to get over fault and look at solutions...and we all do make a difference, we really do

In my view, the fault issue has much to do with the development of a solution... It's the root of the issue

i thought so before because I am middle class but now I know more about the mind set so I have shifted my expectation. Thanks for the awesome discussion. You have made me think, by challenging me to examine further and so I thank you.

Always nice to have a vibrant discussion to get the cognitive process really in high gear.

Thank you to you as well!

 

[L Gilbert]

I once heard a proposal that cities/provinces/feds might consider developing residences exclusively for welfare/low income families. In-house cafeteria style food options, day care facilities, access to select support services, professional development opportunities (like resume writing and/or placement) in exchange for a big chunk of the welfare monies.... The suggestion was shot to pieces by multiple 'rights' groups that demanded the recipients would be denigrated and risk the loss of self respect.

Kinda made me wonder if someone that 'lost self respect' being in an environment like that was proud of their welfare status to begin with.

I like that idea. And those recipients that can build can also earn their assistance by helping build the residences. The ones that can cook could help cook in the cafeterias, etc. Those "rights" groups would have nothing to bitch about then.

Ultimately, that would happen, but society has to take a tougher stance on the issue.

A social safety net is by-in-large a Western construct (in contemporary practice) and the 'net' gets bigger and bigger as every day passes.... You know that there is something wrong when your better off financially (on an after tax basis) going on welfare rather than seeking employment.

As one person that worked in a social assistance office told me, welfare is supposed the last resort. It's not for some and it should be revamped.

They recruit everybody able bodied if there is a fire. It happened to me when travelling through Cranbrook in the mid 80's. RCMP came into the restaurant and said "get on the bus or go to jail until the fire is out".

I didn't mind at all, they paid $20 an hr cash and all I had to do was sit by the river babysitting 4 pumps for 44 hrs straight with another guy. We napped in shifts, they fed us well and there was one helluva kegger when the fire was out.

You can't force people to work and secondly, welfare is about half of minimum wage so you'd have to pay them more doing community servitude

I don't think it's done to a great extent anymore. Last I heard there was some bit of squawking by the whinies that people were being shanghaied.

Nothing wrong with paying them more if they're actually doing stuff of value.

As for women who are baby machines, Child Tax Credit is deducted from their welfare.

There are other issues as well, some healthy people are just simply unemployable. There are people who can f*ck up sweeping even if you spent a week training them, others lack social skills, aren't trust worthy, illiterate, unkempt or have bones in their noses and so many ugly piercings that look like they fell down a flight of stairs with a tackle box, can't handle money, criminal records, transporatation issues or cry when the boss is critical.

Dude with a fishing tackle face can't work?
How many people can't actually handle a broom or a shovel?
Social skills? So don't put them in positions where they have to deal with many people. Frack sakes, I have mild Asperger's and yet I managed in quiote a few different jobs from cooking to HD mechanics and firefighting.
You have no idea how many people I've met that head for Fort Mac, work for a couple years, and come back without a frackin dime.
Ex-cons can't work?
etc. etc.
Lame excuses.

Another issue is being cut off too soon after finding work, some employers hold back the first week of pay making them wait 3 weeks to get one week of pay. Working costs money and getting over the hump can be really sh*tty with one weeks pay when rent and bills are due.

Like I said earlier, the system needs revamping. It isn't an insurmountable problem once you get politicians off their lazy a$$ets.

 

[petros]

Fact. Just drive past the welfare office. There are also numerous welfare mums who have boyfriends that work in camp making $80G + while the taxpayer is providing a place for them while they are in town.
Ever go to a bar on Welfare Wednesday? Try it and watch your tax dollars in action.

What are taxes on liquor? 60%+

 

[Machjo]

And scrap minimum wage and pass right-to-work legislation. There are other, better ways of protecting workers from exploitation; minimum wage and union lock outs aren't among them.

 

[petros]

I like that idea. And those recipients that can build can also earn their assistance by helping build the residences. The ones that can cook could help cook in the cafeterias, etc. Those "rights" groups would have nothing to bitch about then.

Community type work goes to the disabled.

I don't think it's done to a great extent anymore. Last I heard there was some bit of squawking by the whinies that people were being shanghaied.

When a town is threatened it happens.

Nothing wrong with paying them more if they're actually doing stuff of value.

Again jobs taken from the disabled.

Dude with a fishing tackle face can't work?

They can but who the hell is hiring them? Fishing outfitters?

How many people can't actually handle a broom or a shovel?

Don't kid yourself, there are more uselless people than you can imagine.

Social skills? So don't put them in positions where they have to deal with many people. Frack sakes, I have mild Asperger's and yet I managed in quiote a few different jobs from cooking to HD mechanics and firefighting.

It all comes down to job markets

You have no idea how many people I've met that head for Fort Mac, work for a couple years, and come back without a frackin dime.

It's not nicknamed Ft Crack for nothing.

Ex-cons can't work?

They can but there are limits, just like tackle face.

etc. etc. Lame excuses.

Not at all, think them through.

Like I said earlier, the system needs revamping. It isn't an insurmountable problem once you get politicians off their lazy a$$ets.

More people who don't think things through or just plain don't give a sh*t.

 

[L Gilbert]

Community type work goes to the disabled,.

.... and the charity workers, volunteers, and people convicted of minor crimes, etc. So? We can include welfare recipients in the list.

When a town is threatened it happens.

A rare occasion.

Again jobs taken from the disabled.

Just how many disabled people do you think there are? Half the population? Most of the disabled people I know are working from home, working at Walmart, or have some pretty good paying jobs.

They can but who the hell is hiring them? Fishing outfitters?

People who think that the jewelry won't affect their ability to work. Who else?

Don't kid yourself, there are more uselless people than you can imagine.

Really? How many do you think I can imagine?

It all comes down to job

Ya think?

It's not nicknamed Ft Crack for nothing.

Crackheads can't usually afford brand new Harleys, boats, and whatnot.

They can but there are limits, just like tackle face.

There have always been limits and there likely will always be limits. So?

Not at all, think them through.

You mean think like a defeatists, like you.

More people who don't think things through or just plain don't give a sh*t.

Then it's up to the people that vote them in to spur some activity from them, right?

 

[JLM]

Upon thinking this situation over, I've been thinking a little evening up is in order. Perhaps a bonus of $1000 or so for people upon attaining the age of 65 for those who have never collected welfare, E.I. W.C.B. have paid their taxes in full every year and never been in jail.

 

[L Gilbert]

Upon thinking this situation over, I've been thinking a little evening up is in order. Perhaps a bonus of $1000 or so for people upon attaining the age of 65 for those who have never collected welfare, E.I. W.C.B. have paid their taxes in full every year and never been in jail.

Keep thinking.
What you suggest is favoritism in a society that at least pretends to be equitable.
Not only that it discourages some from actually looking at their retirements.
The idea is all about prompting people to get off welfare, not to dangle something unattainable in front of them.
And you were kidding about injured workers on WCB, right?

 

[gerryh]

Upon thinking this situation over, I've been thinking a little evening up is in order. Perhaps a bonus of $1000 or so for people upon attaining the age of 65 for those who have never collected welfare, E.I. W.C.B. have paid their taxes in full every year and never been in jail.

well, isn't that special..... let's penalize those that have fallen on hard times or have made a mistake in the past by giving more to someone that may have just been lucky.



Is welfare the governments fault? Sure, to those that are unwilling to take responsibility for the REASON that welfare is needed. Societal mores are the reason that welfare is needed. The fact is that societal members turn a blind eye to those less fortunate or in need. They EXPECT "government" to "do something".

we, as a society, are responsible for each and every member of that society, and untill we actually take on that responsibility, we will continue to have the disenfranchised and down trodden. We will continue to hear the whining of the cost from those that don't understand the TRUE cost of allowing there to be members of our society going without.

Keep thinking.
What you suggest is favoritism in a society that at least pretends to be equitable.
Not only that it discourages some from actually looking at their retirements.
The idea is all about prompting people to get off welfare, not to dangle something unattainable in front of them.
And you were kidding about injured workers on WCB, right?

What it is, is another example of jlm thinking of only himself.

 

[taxslave]

Does anybody have the stats on corporate welfare and how it compares to social welfare?

Define corporate welfare. Some such as gifts and tax breaks to Bombardier is more of a distribution system to give money to a certain group of voters.

 

[china]

My old man made me pay rent the day after I finished high school which was 3 months after turning 17.The other option was $50 and a sleeping bag. I found a job and got myself a place to live really quick.

I was out at 16 ....to explore the beautiful world .