Mall roof collapse injures at least 4 in N. Ontario

[lone wolf]

The spin is on. Authorities are claiming the stop rescue order was a misunderstanding. My mine rescue son-in-law argues that point - as do other people who were on the scene and active.

A registry is a great idea. The problem is, anyone who has a million dollar piece of equipment isn't going to have it standing idle just in case. Priestly's machine had to be torn down for clearance then floated from Toronto to Elliot Lake - a six-hour drive at the best of times.

Here it is coming off 69 to 17 West.... (Northern Life photo) You can bet the cop behind wasn't wanting to issue any speeding ticket....

 

[SLM]

Don't we have a special disaster team ready to be deployed at a moments notice to anywhere in the world? If we can ship them off to Haiti after an earthquake could we not ship them to Elliot Lake?

They stopped, they didn't stop (it WAS reported that they stopped). The only thing that's obvious at this point, I think, is that balls were dropped and heads will roll.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Don't we have a special disaster team ready to be deployed at a moments notice to anywhere in the world? If we can ship them off to Haiti after an earthquake could we not ship them to Elliot Lake?

They stopped, they didn't stop (it WAS reported that they stopped). The only thing that's obvious at this point, I think, is that balls were dropped and heads will roll.

The DART team, but I think we would have still had the same logistical problems.

 

[SLM]

The DART team, but I think we would have still had the same logistical problems.

Maybe you're right, I don't know.

All I do know is that the whole situation really pisses me off, just that it happened, and it's frustrating not to have someone to be really pissed off at. I'm sure that's how the whole town feels.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Maybe you're right, I don't know.

All I do know is that the whole situation really pisses me off, just that it happened, and it's frustrating not to have someone to be really pissed off at. I'm sure that's how the whole town feels.

We definitely need an official plan on how to deal with situations like this.

 

[Kakato]

The spin is on. Authorities are claiming the stop rescue order was a misunderstanding. My mine rescue son-in-law argues that point - as do other people who were on the scene and active.

A registry is a great idea. The problem is, anyone who has a million dollar piece of equipment isn't going to have it standing idle just in case. Priestly's machine had to be torn down for clearance then floated from Toronto to Elliot Lake - a six-hour drive at the best of times.

Here it is coming off 69 to 17 West.... (Northern Life photo) You can bet the cop behind wasn't wanting to issue any speeding ticket....

That's what I dont understand,they had a mine rescue team available with lots of underground experience,watching the guy on the news last night and he was really frustrated they were not being kept in the loop.

We also have a list of machinery and resources ready in case of forest fires so why not for natural disasters?

 

[SLM]

We definitely need an official plan on how to deal with situations like this.

Absolutely! This was poorly handled, even if you only take into account the way information was parlayed to the public. A frightened, worried community does not need to hear that they've stopped, they do not need to hear that the Premier is having to tell them to keep going. That should never have happened!

And from what I've read that mall received passed engineers reports, so there are definitely some engineers heads that are going to roll. I'd bet money on it.

 

[CDNBear]

Absolutely! This was poorly handled, even if you only take into account the way information was parlayed to the public.

That's a problem in the lives of the usually unaffected.

The mine rescue team could have dealt with the concrete slab that held up the original rescue efforts, with ease.

They could see where it was hinging, how it would draft. Having been on a mine rescue team, I can assure you, a huge concrete slab, is nothing compared to the remnants of 25,000 tonne rock burst, or collapsed drift or raise.

Sometimes too, people look to uniforms for assurance and authority. Even with reflective stripes, miners in coveralls don't really look like those calendar pin up boys.

 

[SLM]

That's a problem in the lives of the usually unaffected.

The mine rescue team could have dealt with the concrete slab that held up the original rescue efforts, with ease.

They could see where it was hinging, how it would draft. Having been on a mine rescue team, I can assure you, a huge concrete slab, is nothing compared to the remnants of 25,000 tonne rock burst, or collapsed drift or raise.

Sometimes too, people look to uniforms for assurance and authority. Even with reflective stripes, miners in coveralls don't really look like those calendar pin up boys.

I bet they would have looked absolutely beautiful to that woman who was tapping trying to let people know she was alive.

 

[CDNBear]

I bet they would have looked absolutely beautiful to that woman who was tapping trying to let people know she was alive.

She would have looked even better to them, since the most experienced mine rescue team members. Can recall using spatula's and ziploc bags to 'rescue' people in the past.

They train for the worst, hope for the best.

 

[bill barilko]

And from what I've read that mall received passed engineers reports, so there are definitely some engineers heads that are going to roll. I'd bet money on it.

I've posted similar thoughts upthread but it later occurred to me that all we have is the owner's word about the reports-no one else has read them yet.

His lawyer/mouthpiece was braying about how the reports were 'public' but he didn't hand out any copies.

She would have looked even better to them, since the most experienced mine rescue team members. Can recall using spatula's and ziploc bags to 'rescue' people in the past....

My Dad did that and it was one reason he quit and didn't want me working @ Levack Mine.

 

[JLM]

And from what I've read that mall received passed engineers reports, so there are definitely some engineers heads that are going to roll. I'd bet money on it.

Yep, in theory, it's fun when you can watch stuff like that happen but it doesn't always go as planned. Do you recall about 10-15 years ago the leaky condo fiasco in Vancouver, it was supposed to have been pretty well cut and dried between the builder and the building inspector it ended up without either one of them paying a dime from what I recall. Do you wonder why I hate bureaucrats? :lol:

 

[SLM]

I've posted similar thoughts upthread but it later occurred to me that all we have is the owner's word about the reports-no one else has read them yet.

His lawyer/mouthpiece was braying about how the reports were 'public' but he didn't hand out any copies.

Funny but I was just reading in an article where a reporter tried to get the reports from City Hall and the clerk freaked out and called the police. The constable in the article is quoted as saying that despite it being used as part of the investigation, the press can still request a copy under Freedom of Information.

Yep, in theory, it's fun when you can watch stuff like that happen but it doesn't always go as planned. Do you recall about 10-15 years ago the leaky condo fiasco in Vancouver, it was supposed to have been pretty well cut and dried between the builder and the building inspector it ended up without either one of them paying a dime from what I recall. Do you wonder why I hate bureaucrats? :lol:

Did anybody die? The professional association will strip whoever signed that report, if it in fact does exist, of their right to practice. This is too big a fiasco not too.

On a related note was there not another shopping mall roof that collapsed back in the eighties up north as well? For some reason I'm thinking Sudbury?

 

[taxslave]

Also I'd expect that the government departments are going to want to look into how this disaster was handled and make recommendations for improvements.

Personally I think that anyone who owns a piece of heavy equipment should be able to register their services in a database which can be consulted in the event of a disaster. When the emergency team realized that the rescue effort demanded bigger more sophisticated tools, getting help should have been a few clicks on the internet and a phone call away.

There is. Several in fact. just the bureaucraps have to access the data base to find out what is available and where it might be.

Funny but I was just reading in an article where a reporter tried to get the reports from City Hall and the clerk freaked out and called the police. The constable in the article is quoted as saying that despite it being used as part of the investigation, the press can still request a copy under Freedom of Information.



Did anybody die? The professional association will strip whoever signed that report, if it in fact does exist, of their right to practice. This is too big a fiasco not too.

On a related note was there not another shopping mall roof that collapsed back in the eighties up north as well? For some reason I'm thinking Sudbury?

There was one in Burnaby a few years back. Brand spanking new too.

 

[SLM]

There was one in Burnaby a few years back. Brand spanking new too.

Don't think that's the one I'm thinking of. I have a vague recollection back when I moved to Ottawa which would be mid 80s and it caught my attention because it was in Northern Ont. I'm originally from around Sudbury. Can't remember if it was a roof cave in or what, but it was something. Maybe LW or DaS might know.

 

[lone wolf]

I remembered something about a mall skylight. For some reason, Northgate Square, North Bay came to mind

From buildsafe.ca

January 13, 1998 – A 37 year old worker was crushed and died of the injuries when the roof of a penthouse of a shopping mall being demolished collapsed in Sudbury.

 

[SLM]

I remembered something about a mall skylight. For some reason, Northgate Square, North Bay came to mind

From buildsafe.ca

Maybe that's the one. I just know I was in Ottawa when I heard about it, it had something to do with a shopping mall, and it was in Northern Ontario. Definitely wasn't as big as the current one, but I knew there was something.

Thanks LW, that would have driven me nuts trying to remember it. Lol.

 

[JLM]

Did anybody die?

Probably not directly, but condos in many cases are purchased by elderly people who may have limited means, be in frail health and subjected to worry and frustration which over the long haul I'm sure takes a toll.

 

[SLM]

Probably not directly, but condos in many cases are purchased by elderly people who may have limited means, be in frail health and subjected to worry and frustration which over the long haul I'm sure takes a toll.

Oh don't misunderstand, I'm not fluffing off what was done by any means. Just that when deaths are involved, if an engineer did sign a report stating something was safe and it wasn't, they have huge liability. Not to mention the architect of the design if that's found to have flaws.

 

[JLM]

Probably not directly, but condos in many cases are purchased by elderly people who may have limited means, be in frail health and subjected to worry and frustration which over the long haul I'm sure takes a toll.

After the fact, the problem was finally attributed to the wet Vancouver weather and with the roofs built flush with the top of the walls, allowed for water to leak down through the walls especially during periods of high winds, since then condos are now build with overhangs on the roofs. In California, where the weather is dry the same condos worked out all right. But the lesson was learned $millions too late.

Oh don't misunderstand, I'm not fluffing off what was done by any means. Just that when deaths are involved, if an engineer did sign a report stating something was safe and it wasn't, they have huge liability. Not to mention the architect of the design if that's found to have flaws.

One problem in legalese is that old term "caviat emptor".