You assume God values quantity instead of quality. You assume His agenda is to cram stadiums full of "Christians"?
Assume then accuse others of assumption.... Does the word hypocrite mean anything?
Last edited:
You assume God values quantity instead of quality. You assume His agenda is to cram stadiums full of "Christians"?
Or four: the reports on him that have come down to us are greatly exaggerated. Or five: he's a fabrication borrowed from other traditions. He's certainly not the first person/deity who was claimed to have been born around the winter solstice, of a virgin, performed miracles, died, was resurrected, etc. Horus and Mithras come immediately to mind, and I know there are a few others, such claims are fairly common in antiquity. There's even a contemporary of Jesus', Appolonius of Tyana, of whom similar claims were made.So he could have been choice three, too.
Like I said, you know nothing of the history of the bible or Christianity. Jesus was not deified until 300 years after his death. It was then that MEN wrote in the stuff about "the only begotten Son" stuff. Before that he was just a highly esteemed rabbi. Jesus never claimed to be the Son of god."Who is Jesus?" is the most important question any of us will ever answer.
If he were merely healer/priest/teacher, but not "The Son of God," then he was a horrible teacher and a liar, what with claiming to be the Son of God. I assume then that you do not believe He rose from the grave?
Why should He make things perfectly clear to those who aren't His children? I don't teach math, spelling, or manners to the children down the road, but I do teach these to my own children.
"Who is Jesus?" is the most important question any of us will ever answer.
If he were merely healer/priest/teacher, but not "The Son of God," then he was a horrible teacher and a liar, what with claiming to be the Son of God. I assume then that you do not believe He rose from the grave?
But it is one team. We say of the Father and Son, not that they are one person, for they are two, but they are of one essence or of one substance -- there is one God, whose very nature embodies both diversity and unity, intimacy and community.
"Becoming one flesh" is Biblical language for the unity of a married couple.
Still catching up? I just posted that to be annoying. lol
Who are you to tell me what I assume? Isn't that an assumption of itself?
Funny, I thought this numbskull loved everyone and all things. Ya know, like it says in the Bible? Um "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son ...." etc. Jesus, whose alterego is this god, according to the Bible, said "hate not the sinner". You can't have it both ways. It's extremely illogical and downright irrational.
Like I said, you know nothing of the history of the bible or Christianity. Jesus was not deified until 300 years after his death. It was then that MEN wrote in the stuff about "the only begotten Son" stuff. Before that he was just a highly esteemed rabbi. Jesus never claimed to be the Son of god.
The bible is a guide book that was written for ignorant goat herders and people who were tearing Constantine's empire apart over conflicting ideologies. The bible was put together to create the one official religion of Rome in an attempt to end that conflict. Thus began one of the worst periods in history where millions, possibly billions, of people were slaughtered over a false doctrine. The authors had no way of knowing the outcome of their folly, which was they took encoded writings and made them gospel. Their ignorance created a debacle of biblical proportions. The only reason the bible has survived to this day is than anyone who did not toe the accepted doctrinal line met with a horrible death. The self-fulfilling prophesies of the NT have already been fulfilled. The slaughter began 1700 years ago.
I guaranty that should Jesus return tomorrow, Christians, particularly the born again evangelicals would be the first to declare him a charlatan and demand his head on a pike.
..................
Oh, so the "Lord's Prayer" taught by Jesus means nothing??? Remember the first words........Our Father who art in heaven. For Pete's sake who the heck have humans been praying to all these years??
As to believing that a dead body can be reanimated after 3 days in a hot climate, come now, just imagine the shape it would have been in. This is not the way of reasonable being. If we were meant to believe something along those lines, then any good God would have made sure proof was offered to all re his existence.
Since God, according to Jesus said we were all His children, then Jesus was no more unique than any other portion of existence.
If, in the beginning there was only Spirit, then it stands to reason all that exists is part and parcel of that Spirit. Now that makes me as well as you God.
Has God always existed?? Is He the one and only God ? Highly unlikely considering the contrariness of creation and the circumstances of our existence. Why did He create Evil?? Why did He create homosexuals, bisexuals, hermaphrodites etc?? He obviously did as, they have always existed. Why create these flaws and then punish us for following the natures given us?? Certainly an all knowing, perfect creator, would know we were not perfect. Ergo, either God does not exist, or the Bible and what it teaches is a fairy tale.
As to believing that a dead body can be reanimated after 3 days in a hot climate, come now, just imagine the shape it would have been in. This is not the way of reasonable being. If we were meant to believe something along those lines, then any good God would have made sure proof was offered to all re his existence.
"What are your sources for this revised historical account?"
My sources are historical. Your version is the revision and is only very recent. I suppose you are going to say you never heard of witch hunts, the inquisition, the slaughter of the Knights Templar, the slaughter of aboriginal people world wide, etc.Do you anything about the Gnostic Gospels and what happened to the Gnostics?
How the Council of Nicea Changed the World
Heather Whipps
Date: 30 March 2008 Time: 08:00 PM ET
When Constantine became the first Christian leader of the Roman Empire in the 4th century, his vast territory was populated by a hodgepodge of beliefs and religions.
Within his own young religion, there was also dissent, with one major question threatening to cleave the popular cult — as it was at the time — into warring factions: Was Jesus divine, and how?
It's hard to imagine riots in the streets, pamphlet wars and vicious rhetoric spawned by such a question, but that was the nature of things in A.D. 325, when Constantine was forced to take action to quell the controversy.
That summer, 318 bishops from across the empire were invited to the Turkish town of Nicea, where Constantine had a vacation house, in an attempt to find common ground on what historians now refer to as the Arian Controversy. It was the first ever worldwide gathering of the Church.
The Christianity we know today is a result of what those men agreed upon over that sticky month, including the timing of the religion's most important holiday, Easter, which celebrates Jesus rising from the dead.
Young religion
Christianity was young and still working out the kinks when Constantine took power over the Roman Empire in A.D. 306. Christian doctrine at the time was muddled and inconsistent, especially when it came to the central question of Jesus' relationship to God.
Jesus was as eternally divine as the Father, said one camp led by the Archbishop Alexander of Alexandria. Another group, named the Arians after their leader Arius the preacher, saw Jesus as a remarkable leader, but inferior to the Father and lacking in absolute divinity.
Supporters on both sides scrawled graffiti on town walls in defiance while bishops from across the empire entered into a war of words as the controversy simmered to a head in 324.
Fearing unrest in his otherwise peaceful territory, Constantine summoned the bishops to his lake house in Nicea on June 19, 325.
Savvy move
In a savvy move that would put today's shrewd politicians to shame, the compromise proffered by Constantine was vague, but blandly pleasing: Jesus and God were of the same "substance," he suggested, without delving too much into the nature of that relationship. A majority of the bishops agreed on the compromise and voted to pass the language into doctrine.
Their statement of compromise, which would come to be known as "The Nicene Creed," formed the basis for Christian ideology. The bishops also used the Council of Nicea to set in stone some church rules that needed clarification, and those canons were the reference point after which all future laws were modeled.
As a final order of business, the bishops decided upon a date for the holiest of Christian celebrations, Easter, which was being observed at different times around the empire. Previously linked with the timing of Passover, the council settled on a moveable day that would never coincide again with the Jewish holiday — the first Sunday after the first full moon on or after the vernal equinox.
"Who is Jesus?" is the most important question any of us will ever answer.
If he were merely healer/priest/teacher, but not "The Son of God," then he was a horrible teacher and a liar, what with claiming to be the Son of God. I assume then that you do not believe He rose from the grave?
Don't call him a numbskull. Try to maintain a basic level of respect. You'd consider it quite rude if I talked about your father like that. It's difficult for people to take you seriously if you resort to language that invokes memories from our years at elementary school.
If you read the Bible, you realize that he does not "love everyone and all things." As for "hate not the sinner," I've got a newsflash for you. Regardless of what washed-out Osteen Christians have told you, God Hates Sinners. It's not even logical to "hate sin" but not the sinner. Who gets punished for sin? Sinners! That's why we're in hot soup unless another is punished in our place, as if He were the sinner.
As for how Christians are commanded to live, we aren't God, which means we don't presume to do all the same things God does. For example, it's not my place or business or right to hate a sinner, because, in the first place, I myself am a sinner! The holy and righteous God, however, is perfectly justified to hate sinners. If this were not so, then hell would not be a viable doctrine, and perhaps this explains why some are removing this doctrine, though Christ preached it clearly.
As for John 3:16, "the world" is used to indicated that Christ's saving work is not limited to one time or place but applies to the elect from all over the world. This verse must be embraced along with all Bible verses, which clearly show that there is a such thing as "reprobates," who are not receiving the remedy that God has provided, and will perish. If he loved them, this would not be happening. He does not love them -- he hates them.
M: "You are sounding like you did when you were being bush-burned"
G: "Get it down in a way for the sense to be telegraphed to the people, regardless of whether or not they know the technology from when it came. The important thing is for them to get the same emotional feeling. From there (volunteer) angels will help, and from there, we're going to do something only a human can do..."
M: "What?"
G: "Figure out a way out for a former Lucifer slave (aka demon)"
Of course I know the Nicene Creed, for it is approved and accepted by my Christian church along with nearly all the churches of Christendom. You're absolutely correct that this is a statement formulated by the early church, and adopted at the Council of Constantinople in 381, over against the heresy of Arianism. Yet this creed was not a replacement of scripture, for we hold the same Bible that Arius himself held in his heretic hands. Rather, the Nicene Creed is a summary of the doctrine of the Word of God. It doesn't stand as a contradiction of scripture, but rather a confirmation of it. Formulations of such creeds (and their continued use today) was essential in standing firm against various heresies. Creeds/confessions are the very things that delineate us from, for example, the Roman Catholic church. (Although in the case of the Nicene Creed, I'm pretty sure they embrace it as well.)
To answer your other question, yes, I've read about the Gnostics -- even read one of their gospels. What are you going to say about them? You're a fan?
Except Heavenly Father came unto me in a dream, along with Heavenly Mother (the Holy Ghost) and showed me how tragic examples of dumbness would happen among humans when those of the salamander class got used but still not accepted by Lucifer as he would have a lizard.And now you admit that you're following a book that was DICTATED and VOTED on by MEN.
So, not divine at all.
Thank you very much, you just proved yourself a hypocrite.
Hey, you're the one calling him a horrible teacher and liar, not me. I actually think he was a good man, so what's that mean? And no, I don't believe he rose from the grave like you believe. I believe in the spirit moving onto the "next life", as it were, whatever that life is (an odd phrase too, BTW: Next life... could it be reincarnation is a real thing, or better yet, there's another "place" that souls go to and have a new life?). The thing is, answering the question "Who is Jesus" is all moot, as none of us were there with him and all we have are stories. And stories, as you know, get embellished over time, just like secrets and gossip.
So basically you're admitting your God is a hateful, sadistic jerk? Then why get mad at people who point it out? They're just agreeing with you.
And now you admit that you're following a book that was DICTATED and VOTED on by MEN.
So, not divine at all.
Thank you very much, you just proved yourself a hypocrite.
Really, I thought it was in a post where the weight of water was compared to the weight of the earth as being something like 0.0002% and your view was that it was too small to make a difference in the length of days or years.I've made no such contention, I've known for over 40 years that's not correct, your memory is faulty or you misread something.
The Bible is pretty silent on those years, however there is lots written about the years between 30 and 34, wouldn't examining those verses be more worthwhile. His mother Mary was a cousin to Elizabeth and if she was a 'daughter of Aaron' the Mary was also. When God called John at about the age of 30 had he been 'trained' in any way that would apply to the priesthood? (rather than just learning woodwork) Does being in line for the 'throne' carry any special training or teaching in those 'missing years'?And you can account for the 18 years between 12 and 30? Where do you think he was and what was he doing - making furniture?
Far as I know there is only one place where a day and 1,000 years is covered. In those few verses Peter seems to be lookinh forward in time rather than backward. In the future from there we have a day of wrath (a few hours long), a 1,000 years of peace, more wrath which is against any remaining fallen angels that were not put in the lake. The prophecies in the NT and OT do not usually reference a 1,000 pause in the 'day of wrath'. That might also apply to the ones Jesus kills on that day, their sins require God punish them so God does using the shortest length of time possible. The place they sent to is referenced as being a place where a person will be thirsty for water. The pain associated with the locusts could affect men in that time and they are cursing God when they are sent there but they are said to be mocking Satan after they are both there and both are there on the same day, if a person cannot serve two masters at once then only 'one God' at a time can be mocked the rest of that 1,000 years may not be as bad as the first few moments of being there. If a few of mankind are raised a few hours after the day of return starts and the rest are not raised until 1,000 years have passed that allows prophecies that mention a 'day of the Lord' or a 'last day' to cover the wrath at both ends as being one wrath in prophecy and the resurrection of both groups is classified as being on the same day.I thought time in the Bible was relative. The bit about 6 days being like 6000 years and all that crap. Or is that only in parts of the Bible? because there doesn't seem to be a scale or a note when one should use time or relative time.
oh. Well, I didn't say that to annoy you anyway. So, yes, it's ok. lolActually, I was answering the In Between Man or the Lion of Zion, not you. But that's OK.
Well, sure. It's just logical to think that if something is clear and concise, people would be more willing to consider using it as a part of their lives. It would be an effect.I said that because you were talking about "attracting people," as if the general strategy of evangelism is the same as marketing for a Tupperware party. The strategy demonstrated by Christ is to share the word -- the law and the gospel -- this word repulses more people than it attracts. It's a beautiful message for those whom the Father gives to the Son, but is an aroma of judgment and death to those who are perishing.
What message? From my POV, there's only two messages in the Bible that are worth anything: "love thy neighbor...." and "do unto others ...." From that you can develop any of the commandments except for the narcissistic first 4.Just because some fairytale Christians have decided to "fix" the offense of the Gospel by watering down the message doesn't mean that's what Christ did, or intended us to do.
Sorry, but my father was demonstrably smarter than your god and so am I and a lot of the other people in this forum board. Like I said, for some critter that's supposed to be all-seeing, all-powerful, etc. it sure exhibits a lack of foresight and inability to correct its blunders.Don't call him a numbskull. Try to maintain a basic level of respect. You'd consider it quite rude if I talked about your father like that. It's difficult for people to take you seriously if you resort to language that invokes memories from our years at elementary school.
I can understand getting pissed at sinners but hating them? That's just childish at best. Why the hell would a "father" conjure up everything in sight and knowingly throw a wrench into the works causing "sin" to occur in the "kids" he loves, and then punish them for being sinful? That's sheer stupidity and malevolent sadism, IMO.If you read the Bible, you realize that he does not "love everyone and all things." As for "hate not the sinner," I've got a newsflash for you. Regardless of what washed-out Osteen Christians have told you, God Hates Sinners. It's not even logical to "hate sin" but not the sinner. Who gets punished for sin? Sinners! That's why we're in hot soup unless another is punished in our place, as if He were the sinner.
By introducing sin in the first place, the silly numbskull brought all the troubles onto itself.As for how Christians are commanded to live, we aren't God, which means we don't presume to do all the same things God does. For example, it's not my place or business or right to hate a sinner, because, in the first place, I myself am a sinner! The holy and righteous God, however, is perfectly justified to hate sinners. If this were not so, then hell would not be a viable doctrine, and perhaps this explains why some are removing this doctrine, though Christ preached it clearly.
Like I said, if the goofy critter had any wits it could fix it all easily, given that and according to the Bible, it really is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all that baloney. IOW, if the Bible is correct, then this god, simply by creating everything to be as it is, is ultimately responsible for what it is.As for John 3:16, "the world" is used to indicated that Christ's saving work is not limited to one time or place but applies to the elect from all over the world. This verse must be embraced along with all Bible verses, which clearly show that there is a such thing as "reprobates," who are not receiving the remedy that God has provided, and will perish. If he loved them, this would not be happening. He does not love them -- he hates them.
Okay, that rings a distant bell, but that's quite a different claim than saying the orbital parameters have never changed at all.Really, I thought it was in a post where the weight of water was compared to the weight of the earth as being something like 0.0002% and your view was that it was too small to make a difference in the length of days or years.
The visible universe is about 13.7 billion years old, the earth's in the 4-5 billion year range, so certainly time must have existed prior to 4 million years ago.If my memory has failed me and you do think the orbits could have changed then did God put the creation of time in the right slot @ 4,000,000 years ago? I can't see you agreeing with that.
The bible is silent. Yup! Because it would change the whole story if that part was known. That part of the story was left out because it did not agree with the political agenda of forming a church; a church that was about Jesus and not one based on his teachings. It was Paul who deified Jesus. His revelation on the road to Damascus was that for every Christian he martyred, ten more would pop up, so he decided that it would be better to form a religion, deify the guy and control them instead of trying to eradicate them. Paul was not divinely inspired, he was inspired by a lust for power.The Bible is pretty silent on those years, however there is lots written about the years between 30 and 34, wouldn't examining those verses be more worthwhile. His mother Mary was a cousin to Elizabeth and if she was a 'daughter of Aaron' the Mary was also. When God called John at about the age of 30 had he been 'trained' in any way that would apply to the priesthood? (rather than just learning woodwork) Does being in line for the 'throne' carry any special training or teaching in those 'missing years'?
Well, sure. It's just logical to think that if something is clear and concise, people would be more willing to consider using it as a part of their lives. It would be an effect.
After all, there's only two reasons I can think of why your Yeshua would wander around preaching; to share and to recruit.
Like I said, making Judeo-Christianity complex, ambiguous, and vague only serves to push sensible, simple people away. It'd be like me and wifey favoring one kid over another but still claiming we loved both equally. Freakin stupid, IMO.
I can understand getting pissed at sinners but hating them? That's just childish at best. Why the hell would a "father" conjure up everything in sight and knowingly throw a wrench into the works causing "sin" to occur in the "kids" he loves, and then punish them for being sinful? That's sheer stupidity and malevolent sadism, IMO.
Like I said, if the goofy critter had any wits it could fix it all easily, given that and according to the Bible, it really is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all that baloney. IOW, if the Bible is correct, then this god, simply by creating everything to be as it is, is ultimately responsible for what it is.