Wheat board monopoly to end

[captain morgan]

You have applied arbitrary costs to government intervention. There is no question that our system produces low cost subsidized food.

Ron in Regina posted (I think it was on this thread) about how the elevators in Saskatchewan were removed and fewer mega elevators have been built causing farmers to haul with larger and larger vehicles. This is partially the caused of the highways in the province (according to R in R) to deteriorate. How much damage in dollar value has this caused? The farmers aren't paying the bill. The government is not fixing the roads and tacking it onto a loaf of bread or sending the bill to the elevators. If we are going to look at the true cost of subsidies we have to look at everything.

Ok, let me play devil's advocate on this.

One could easily make the argument that having multiple (smaller) elevators in an area was the cause for more roads to be built and maintained in the first place.

Further, the 'fee' that was charged by the CWB also has to be recognized as a revenue stream.. If that money went straight to the federal gvt coffers, then the CWB was nothing more than a regional specific tax on Western growers. That said, do the funds go towards maintaining the infrastructure (roads) or does it exist as the aforementioned tax.

In teh end, the farmers were getting the sh*t end of the stick on this. They had NO opportunity to realize market value for their product, instead, the price was dictated to them... IF there is a cheap food policy in Canada and the farmers are ground zero in the production chain; and IF the price was dictated to them and non-negotiable, I will suggest that it is, in fact, the farmers that are subsidizing/supporting the cheap food policy AND they are also paying an indirect tax that could/should be applied to any infrastructure concerns.

 

[CDNBear]

We already have one, It's called the CWB and we freely chose it but who is stopping our freedom of choice?

No, you had a vote that offered a yes or no.

Try again with a yes, no or choice.

And see what happens.

Something tells me, you don't want to know the answer.

 

[petros]

No, you had a vote that offered a yes or no.

We already voted. We chose the CWB and a 3rd party (Ritz and CPC) came along and said "**** you!"

 

[TenPenny]

In teh end, the farmers were getting the sh*t end of the stick on this. They had NO opportunity to realize market value for their product, instead, the price was dictated to them...

You have to remember that this only applies when the CWB wasn't getting higher prices than the farmers would otherwise get; in times when the CWB was able to control the market and get higher prices, the farmers got the benefit.

It would be challenging to work out how that worked over all, an awful lot of assumptions would have to be made.

 

[petros]

We already voted. We chose the CWB and a 3rd party (Ritz and CPC) came along and said "**** you!"

Would you accept the Liberal party being given PMO after CPC won the majority? Yes no or a 3rd option? Would you like the 3rd option?

 

[JLM]

...and they would be higher still if you were to pay the actual value.

And how do you determine the "actual value"?

 

[CDNBear]

We already voted. We chose the CWB and a 3rd party (Ritz and CPC) came along and said "**** you!"

Ya, you keep saying that.

So...

When you have a vote that encompasses all aspects. Come back and talk to me.

You have to remember that this only applies when the CWB wasn't getting higher prices than the farmers would otherwise get; in times when the CWB was able to control the market and get higher prices, the farmers got the benefit.

It would be challenging to work out how that worked over all, an awful lot of assumptions would have to be made.

Honest question, how are the grain farmers doing in NB?

I understand it's a much smaller market, but are they making fairly decent money?

 

[petros]

Ya, you keep saying that.

So...

When you have a vote that encompasses all aspects. Come back and talk to me.

Would you accept the Liberal party being given PMO after CPC won the majority? Yes no or a 3rd option? Would you like the 3rd option?

 

[Cannuck]

One could easily make the argument that having multiple (smaller) elevators in an area was the cause for more roads to be built and maintained in the first place.

You could easily make that argument but you would be wrong. The roads had to be built to the farms so the farmers could get their equipment in and out. These roads by the way, were built with tax dollars which means the farmers were not given the bill for a road to their farm. They do not pay for the upkeep on these roads. Most of the elevators were built in towns and villages so there was no need to build a road to them.

Further, the 'fee' that was charged by the CWB also has to be recognized as a revenue stream.. If that money went straight to the federal gvt coffers, then the CWB was nothing more than a regional specific tax on Western growers. That said, do the funds go towards maintaining the infrastructure (roads) or does it exist as the aforementioned tax.

In teh end, the farmers were getting the sh*t end of the stick on this. They had NO opportunity to realize market value for their product, instead, the price was dictated to them... IF there is a cheap food policy in Canada and the farmers are ground zero in the production chain; and IF the price was dictated to them and non-negotiable, I will suggest that it is, in fact, the farmers that are subsidizing/supporting the cheap food policy AND they are also paying an indirect tax that could/should be applied to any infrastructure concerns.

I'm not arguing in favour of the wheat board. I'm merely pointing out that we have a cheap food policy in this country and it has, for the most part benefited the population (or at the very least, the population supports the idea). As I said in an earlier post, 80% of the farmers I know support having a choice. That is good enough for me.

 

[CDNBear]

Would you accept the Liberal party being given PMO after CPC won the majority? Yes no or a 3rd option? Would you like the 3rd option?

Nice fail.

What you are saying is "Lets vote in a new gov't"

Here's the parties...

NDP
Liberal
CPC

Here's the ballot...

Liberal
CPC

 

[Cannuck]

And how do you determine the "actual value"?

Remove all subsidies

 

[petros]

Remove all subsidies

In Canada we don't have subsidies.

 

[Cannuck]

In Canada we don't have subsidies.

Of course you do. You just don't call them subsidies.

 

[CDNBear]

You could easily make that argument but you would be wrong. The roads had to be built to the farms so the farmers could get their equipment in and out. These roads by the way, were built with tax dollars which means the farmers were not given the bill for a road to their farm.

Since most rural roads are built and maintained, by the municipality, wouldn't the property taxes cover those costs?

Primary routes are usually provincial, secondary are regional, tertiary are municipal.

 

[captain morgan]

You have to remember that this only applies when the CWB wasn't getting higher prices than the farmers would otherwise get; in times when the CWB was able to control the market and get higher prices, the farmers got the benefit.

It would be challenging to work out how that worked over all, an awful lot of assumptions would have to be made.

No doubt.. I think the task of reverse-engineering and attempting to apply a 'different reality' would be near impossible.

That said, the benefits that you outlined in the first sentence are very real and tangible. Unfortunately, as with everything in life, there are no guarantees (death and taxes notwithstanding). In my mind, the biggest danger to the producers is that they have no options... When/if things are good, they can be reasonably well represented and the grower, CWB and gvt all benefit, however, if things go in the crapper - it is only the farmer that takes the brunt of the downside.

The thing that really gets me is that a local farmer is actually prohibited from engaging any kind of value-add... They can't mill that wheat into flour and bake a loaf of bread to sell.... That, in my mind, is a bastardization of how this system ought to operate.

 

[petros]

Nice fail.

What you are saying is "Lets vote in a new gov't"

Here's the parties...

NDP
Liberal
CPC

Here's the ballot...

Liberal
CPC

We made the choice. Done deal.

 

[CDNBear]

We made the choice. Done deal.

That silliness deserves a jaundiced...

 

[JLM]

I'm not fooling myself. I am well aware that everything is ultimately paid for by the taxpayer. The reality though is that Canadians would rather have higher taxes and a $2 loaf of bread than lower taxes and a $5 loaf of bread. We can argue all day whether that is ultimately a good thing but that is what people want.

$2 or $5 is a ripoff. My wife can bake a loaf for about 40 cents and that's even at paying ripoff prices for the ingredients.

"You can fool some of the people all the time...................................................."

 

[petros]

Voting in favour of keeping the CWB then having it yanked out beneath us by force is a free choice and democracy? Is that jaundiced or jaded?

 

[Cannuck]

Since most rural roads are built and maintained, by the municipality, wouldn't the property taxes cover those costs?

No, mostly provincial grants....but even if it were municipal taxes an urban dwellers taxes being spent to maintain a road so a farmer can use it (and in many cases it is one farmer) is a form of subsidy. Farmland is also taxed at a different rate which is also a form of subsidy.