Palestinian "Unilateral Declaration of Independence"

[coldstream]

I saw Mahmoud Abbas' address to United Nations calling for the recognition of Palestine as a state. Frankly it was a powerful and persuasive plea, especially in the view of the reality of Israeli intentions, in full play by way of settlements, to amalgamate the West Bank, and to expel the Palestinians from their homeland.. to create a historical ''Geater, 'Biblical' Israel.

Unfortunately the U.S under Obama., in thrall of the powerful and affluent Jewish lobby, and even more so the Apocalyptic Evangelical Christians, does not have the wherewithal to take an objective and just position on the matter. Another nick on the very mediocre and wind swept Presidency of Barak Obama.. not that the Republicans offer anything better.. probably worse.. but in reality there is no longer any difference in real political or economic policy between the Republicans and the Democrats.

 

[In Between Man]

seriously? Even the Israelis know they have illegally stolen Palestinian land and property.

How can you steal something that is rightfully yours? "Palestinian Land"? No such thing.

The West Bank is NOT OCCUPIED, it is DISPUTED. And the facts show that every grain of sand in the West Bank belongs to the Jews, not the Arabs.

Any state created for the "Palestinians" in the West Bank will be a gift from Israel, not because the "Palestinians" are entitled to it.

Watch the video in its entirety and realize that when you disagree with it, you are disagreeing with the facts:

Israel Palestinian Conflict: The Truth About the West Bank - YouTube

 

[CDNBear]

Can they be proud of their nationless refugee status rather than being citizens of a country like you and I?

They turned it down in 47.

Can they be proud of having to live on a limited amount of international food and medical rations, based on the occupying country's mood?

You keep saying that lie, we keep proving you wrong.

Stop crying about being a Jew hating scumbag, if you want to keep posting lies, hate propaganda, to demonize Israel.

More irrational fear and hate mongering...

Finally you add a disclaimer.


Not that we weren't expecting the same old hate filled post following it.

 

[earth_as_one]

1947 partition plan was rejected because a minority of people (recent immigrants to the area) were given dominion over most of the land, the best land and control of water resources. The majority Arabs got less land, the land they were offered was mostly empty desert containing little water or arable land. Anyone looking at the 1947 plan objectively can see how unfair it was. The Arab counter offer was a single state, where Jews would have the same rights as non-Jews and complete autonomy in areas where they predominate.

Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam:
"We are fighting for an Arab Palestine. Whatever the outcome the Arabs will stick to their offer of equal citizenship for Jews in Arab Palestine and let them be as Jewish as they like. In areas where they predominate they will have complete autonomy."”

If the Zionists had accepted that offer, they would have avoided 63 years of war and the money spent on arms could have bought Israel several times over. It would have been a win-win resolution. Zionists could buy out Arabs willing to move. Arabs not willing to move, would slowly found themselves surrounded by Jews going about their business, peacefully. Instead, Zionists started an ethnic cleansing war which continues to this day.

If this bid for a Palestinian nation fails, then the two state solution is dead. Palestinians will demand equal rights in a single state.

More regarding Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam
In 1945, Azzam was selected to be the first Secretary General of the Arab League. One of Azzam's first acts as secretary-general was to condemn anti-Jewish rioting in Egypt of November 2–3, 1945 during which Jewish and other non-Muslim owned shops were destroyed and the Ashkenazi synagogue in Cairo's Muski quarter was set aflame.[30]

On March 2, 1946, in an address to The Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry into the Problems of European Jewry and Palestine, Azzam explained the Arab League’s attitude towards the Palestine question and rejected the Zionist claim to Palestine:

Our brother has gone to Europe and to the West and come back something else. He has come back with a totally different conception of things, West and not Eastern. That doesn’t mean that we are necessarily quarreling with anyone who comes from the West. But the Jew, our old cousin, coming back with imperialistic ideas, with materialistic ideas, with reactionary or revolutionary ideas and trying to implement them first by British pressure and then by American pressure, and then by terrorism on his own part – he is not the old cousin and we do not extend to him a very good welcome. The Zionist, the new Jew, wants to dominate and he pretends that he has got a particular civilizing mission with which he returns to a backward, degenerate race in order to put the elements of progress into an area which wants no progress. Well, that has been the pretension of every power that wanted to colonize and aimed at domination. The excuse has always been that the people are backward and that he has got a human mission to put them forward. The Arabs simply stand and say NO. We are not reactionary and we are not backward. Even if we are ignorant, the difference between ignorance and knowledge is ten years in school. We are a living, vitally strong nation, we are in our renaissance; we are producing as many children as any nation in the world. We still have our brains. We have a heritage of civilization and of spiritual life. We are not going to allow ourselves to be controlled either by great nations or small nations or dispersed nations.

How wrong he was....

 

[Colpy]

1947 partition plan was rejected because a minority of people (recent immigrants to the area) were given dominion over most of the land, the best land and control of water resources. The majority Arabs got less land, the land they were offered was mostly empty desert containing little water or arable land. Anyone looking at the 1947 plan objectively can see how unfair it was. The Arab counter offer was a single state, where Jews would have the same rights as non-Jews and complete autonomy in areas where they predominate.

Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam:
"We are fighting for an Arab Palestine. Whatever the outcome the Arabs will stick to their offer of equal citizenship for Jews in Arab Palestine and let them be as Jewish as they like. In areas where they predominate they will have complete autonomy."”

If the Zionists had accepted that offer, they would have avoided 63 years of war and the money spent on arms could have bought Israel several times over. It would have been a win-win resolution. Zionists could buy out Arabs willing to move. Arabs not willing to move, would slowly found themselves surrounded by Jews going about their business, peacefully. Instead, Zionists started an ethnic cleansing war which continues to this day.

If this bid for a Palestinian nation fails, then the two state solution is dead. Palestinians will demand equal rights in a single state.

More regarding Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam
In 1945, Azzam was selected to be the first Secretary General of the Arab League. One of Azzam's first acts as secretary-general was to condemn anti-Jewish rioting in Egypt of November 2–3, 1945 during which Jewish and other non-Muslim owned shops were destroyed and the Ashkenazi synagogue in Cairo's Muski quarter was set aflame.[30]

On March 2, 1946, in an address to The Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry into the Problems of European Jewry and Palestine, Azzam explained the Arab League’s attitude towards the Palestine question and rejected the Zionist claim to Palestine:

Our brother has gone to Europe and to the West and come back something else. He has come back with a totally different conception of things, West and not Eastern. That doesn’t mean that we are necessarily quarreling with anyone who comes from the West. But the Jew, our old cousin, coming back with imperialistic ideas, with materialistic ideas, with reactionary or revolutionary ideas and trying to implement them first by British pressure and then by American pressure, and then by terrorism on his own part – he is not the old cousin and we do not extend to him a very good welcome. The Zionist, the new Jew, wants to dominate and he pretends that he has got a particular civilizing mission with which he returns to a backward, degenerate race in order to put the elements of progress into an area which wants no progress. Well, that has been the pretension of every power that wanted to colonize and aimed at domination. The excuse has always been that the people are backward and that he has got a human mission to put them forward. The Arabs simply stand and say NO. We are not reactionary and we are not backward. Even if we are ignorant, the difference between ignorance and knowledge is ten years in school. We are a living, vitally strong nation, we are in our renaissance; we are producing as many children as any nation in the world. We still have our brains. We have a heritage of civilization and of spiritual life. We are not going to allow ourselves to be controlled either by great nations or small nations or dispersed nations.

How wrong he was....

Idiocy.

If the Jews had accepted the offer of living as a minority in a Arab Muslim state they would be at the mercy of a people that believe the last requirement of the end days, as foreseen by Mohammed (Fleas be upon him), is the murder of all Jews.

Yeah.........right. You might be that ****ing stupid, but the Jews weren't. Thankfully.

Yep....the Jews brought back degenerate "elements of progress", like equal rights for women, democracy, gay rights.........

the Horror!!!!

How can you steal something that is rightfully yours? "Palestinian Land"? No such thing.

The West Bank is NOT OCCUPIED, it is DISPUTED. And the facts show that every grain of sand in the West Bank belongs to the Jews, not the Arabs.

Any state created for the "Palestinians" in the West Bank will be a gift from Israel, not because the "Palestinians" are entitled to it.

Watch the video in its entirety and realize that when you disagree with it, you are disagreeing with the facts:

Israel Palestinian Conflict: The Truth About the West Bank - YouTube

Shameless bump.....GREAT video!

 

[BruSan]

God help them when they finally run out of oil; they'll go back to knifing each other in the night over who gets to sleep with the goat!

 

[Colpy]

God help them when they finally run out of oil; they'll go back to knifing each other in the night over who gets to sleep with the goat!

 

[captain morgan]

When did Palestinians get that? They haven't had any dignity for 60+ years. Can they be proud of their nationless refugee status rather than being citizens of a country like you and I? Can they be proud of having to live on a limited amount of international food and medical rations, based on the occupying country's mood?

No one "gives" you dignity EAO, you earn it yourself.

Suffice to say, the Palestinians don't have any as they probably realize that the indiscriminate bombing of families in Israeli settlements does not merit any form of dignity in any way, shape or form.

By the way, how do the Palestinians expect to live without the Israelis' around to provide irrigation and agri-tech?.... Maybe by importing more arms and explosives, do they believe that the requisite food and medical aid will magically appear out of the Earth?

 

[Bar Sinister]

When Palestinian radicals stop blowing themselves up in Israeli marketplaces, lobbing rockets across the border into Israeli townships, and killing children in school buses and elementary schools; then they might have a claim to statehood. The key thing is, however, to start acting like responsible citizens within the areas they now occupy. Until they do that they are going to get very little sympathy form the key players in this game, which happens to be the state of Israel and the United States. Unless these two states decide to cooperate with the Palestinians then what the rest of the world wants is pretty much irrelevant. The Chinese showed us how that works in the case of Tibet.

 

[earth_as_one]

I agree that people can be sripped naked and still maintain their dignity.

However, the worse your conditions the harder it becomes to maintain your dignity and everyone has their limits.

For example, could you maintain your dignity while being inundated by a flood of human excrement?

Sewage Reservoir Floods in Gaza, Killing 5
By AP
Published: March 28, 2007
GAZA, March 27 (AP) — An earthen embankment around a sewage reservoir that was filled to capacity collapsed Tuesday, and officials said it spewed a “tsunami” of waste and mud that killed five people and forced residents to flee Umm Naser, a village in the northern Gaza Strip.

Mahmud Hams/Agence France-Presse
Villagers tried to rescue goats from rising floodwaters that injured 25 people and submerged at least 25 houses. More Photos »

Multimedia

Photographs 'Sewage Tsunami' in Gaza



Enlarge This Image

Abid Katib/Getty Images
Residents inspecting the damage in their homes. More Photos >

Enlarge This Image

Ibraheem Abu Mustafa/Reuters
At least 4 people were killed today in the northern Gaza Strip and more than 30 injured when a sewage system collapsed.

Sewage Reservoir Floods in Gaza, Killing 5 - New York Times

Incompetence was certainly a factor. But the primary cause was the embargo. The reservoir collapsed because Gazans lacked spare parts, resources and materials. Spare parts would have repaired the reservoir's pumps and dilapidated infrastructure. Fuel shortages led to rotating blackouts.

A brief outline of the sewage infrastructure and public health
risks in the Gaza Strip for the World Health Organisation
April 2009
The siege and recent violent military invasion of the Gaza Strip by Israel has put
additional pressure on the long standing undeveloped sewage infrastructure of the Gaza
Strip. A simple visible manifestation of this is the significant volume of raw and partially
treated sewage discharging into the environment (e.g. Wadi Gaza in Middle Zone, and
the Stormwater Reservoir in Khan Yunis) and the Mediterranean Sea at multiple points
along the coast line of the Gaza Strip (about 80,000 m3/day, refer to the Figures below).
There is considerable world literature about the risk of cholera outbreaks from
contaminated and warm seawater (Lipp et al 2003; Madico et al 1996; Munro & Colwell
1996; Tauxe et al 1995). Microbiologically contaminated seawater has been found along
the Gaza Strip coast (WHO 2009a), and there is evidence of sanitation-related infections
in the Gaza Strip (Halileh & Gordon 2005; Issa et al 2005; Kuhail & Tulaib 2005; Abu
Mourad 2004; Astal 2004; Yassin et al 2001).
http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/WASH_SewageInfra-PubHealthRisks.pdf

 

[CDNBear]

More irrational fear and hate mongering...

I agree that people can be sripped naked and still maintain their dignity.

However, the worse your conditions the harder it becomes to maintain your dignity and everyone has their limits.

For example, could you maintain your dignity while being inundated by a flood of human excrement?

Sewage Reservoir Floods in Gaza, Killing 5 - New York Times

Incompetence was certainly a factor. But the primary cause was the embargo. The reservoir collapsed because Gazans lacked spare parts, resources and materials. Spare parts would have repaired the reservoir's pumps and dilapidated infrastructure. Fuel shortages led to rotating blackouts.

A brief outline of the sewage infrastructure and public health
risks in the Gaza Strip for the World Health Organisation
April 2009
The siege and recent violent military invasion of the Gaza Strip by Israel has put
additional pressure on the long standing undeveloped sewage infrastructure of the Gaza
Strip. A simple visible manifestation of this is the significant volume of raw and partially
treated sewage discharging into the environment (e.g. Wadi Gaza in Middle Zone, and
the Stormwater Reservoir in Khan Yunis) and the Mediterranean Sea at multiple points
along the coast line of the Gaza Strip (about 80,000 m3/day, refer to the Figures below).
There is considerable world literature about the risk of cholera outbreaks from
contaminated and warm seawater (Lipp et al 2003; Madico et al 1996; Munro & Colwell
1996; Tauxe et al 1995). Microbiologically contaminated seawater has been found along
the Gaza Strip coast (WHO 2009a), and there is evidence of sanitation-related infections
in the Gaza Strip (Halileh & Gordon 2005; Issa et al 2005; Kuhail & Tulaib 2005; Abu
Mourad 2004; Astal 2004; Yassin et al 2001).
http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/WASH_SewageInfra-PubHealthRisks.pdf

You forgot your disclaimer.

Don't worry, I fixed it for you.

 

[BruSan]

EAO: Please bear with me on this one as I'm going into uncharted territory. In reading this entire thread it occurred to me that you could do no better job of presenting the Israeli's case for them than to continue posting various items that attempt to present the current plight of the Palestinians in a condescending and sympathetic manner but which instead ALWAYS bring the thinking folks on this forum back to the very questions of WHY, WHAT and WHEN.

I'm sure it's occurred to many of us reading your above posts that it is strange indeed they can smuggle rockets, grenades and other bomb making materials into Gaza but the embargo prevents them from smuggling in repair parts or a workable sewage pump? Perhaps their priorities are a tad misplaced? Just whose sewage is that anyway? None of them could take up a shovel to strengthen the berm's but seemingly endless numbers of their youth can carry stones over great distances to throw at armoured vehicles and Jewish troops.

I find it remarkable indeed, given your statements that you might in fact be of Jewish ancestry, that you haven't considered we may ultimately think you are a 'shill' operating for the Jewish League as your posts could not make their case appear any more legitimate were you to sit us in an auditorium and start lobbing rockets at us with "made in Palestine er, Gaza" on them.

Virtually every one of your posts attempts to garner symapathy for the displaced arabs but instead brings us full circle to all of the missed opportunities they've squandered while maintaining their intractable position of never recognizing Israel's right to exist and continuing to operate as the pointy end of an Arab spear on behalf of those Arab states that don't wish to get their personal hands dirty.

If, as you say, you are truly compassionate for the displaced Arabs, why don't you make better use of your time and lobby the OTHER Arabs into considering the plight of their displaced brethren. Proposing that they accept them into their territories in meaningful numbers so as to negate the necessity of them living in squalor fully reliant on Israeli's compassion would be a more productive use of your time instead. That should be the unbearable shame of all Arab's but instead is merely the tool by which they go about keeping Israel on it's toes and in the news. In that sense Arabs are merely proving to the world their moral underpinnings as being no firmer than quicksand and willing to sacrifice their brethren to the greater good of eradicating Jews.

 

[captain morgan]

I agree that people can be sripped naked and still maintain their dignity.

However, the worse your conditions the harder it becomes to maintain your dignity and everyone has their limits.

For example, could you maintain your dignity while being inundated by a flood of human excrement?

Sewage Reservoir Floods in Gaza, Killing 5 - New York Times

Incompetence was certainly a factor. But the primary cause was the embargo. The reservoir collapsed because Gazans lacked spare parts, resources and materials. Spare parts would have repaired the reservoir's pumps and dilapidated infrastructure. Fuel shortages led to rotating blackouts.
http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/WASH_SewageInfra-PubHealthRisks.pdf

Yet, there is more than enough money and supplies for bomb making materials and missiles.... Funny how that works

 

[Colpy]

I agree that people can be sripped naked and still maintain their dignity.

However, the worse your conditions the harder it becomes to maintain your dignity and everyone has their limits.

For example, could you maintain your dignity while being inundated by a flood of human excrement?

Sewage Reservoir Floods in Gaza, Killing 5 - New York Times

Incompetence was certainly a factor. But the primary cause was the embargo. The reservoir collapsed because Gazans lacked spare parts, resources and materials. Spare parts would have repaired the reservoir's pumps and dilapidated infrastructure. Fuel shortages led to rotating blackouts.

A brief outline of the sewage infrastructure and public health
risks in the Gaza Strip for the World Health Organisation
April 2009
The siege and recent violent military invasion of the Gaza Strip by Israel has put
additional pressure on the long standing undeveloped sewage infrastructure of the Gaza
Strip. A simple visible manifestation of this is the significant volume of raw and partially
treated sewage discharging into the environment (e.g. Wadi Gaza in Middle Zone, and
the Stormwater Reservoir in Khan Yunis) and the Mediterranean Sea at multiple points
along the coast line of the Gaza Strip (about 80,000 m3/day, refer to the Figures below).
There is considerable world literature about the risk of cholera outbreaks from
contaminated and warm seawater (Lipp et al 2003; Madico et al 1996; Munro & Colwell
1996; Tauxe et al 1995). Microbiologically contaminated seawater has been found along
the Gaza Strip coast (WHO 2009a), and there is evidence of sanitation-related infections
in the Gaza Strip (Halileh & Gordon 2005; Issa et al 2005; Kuhail & Tulaib 2005; Abu
Mourad 2004; Astal 2004; Yassin et al 2001).
http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/WASH_SewageInfra-PubHealthRisks.pdf

All they have to do to NOT get invaded andshot at is stop shooting at Israel.

 

[petros]

Yup. Not attacking would be a good idea on both ends of the spectrum but not get invaded? What is an occupation?

 

[Colpy]

Yup. Not attacking would be a good idea on both ends of the spectrum but not get invaded? What is an occupation?

Israel left Gaza completely,forcibly taking all settlers with her, in 2005. They have not occupied Gaza in over 6 years.

 

[petros]

How about the West Bank? Still occupied?

 

[Colpy]

How about the West Bank? Still occupied?

Actually, as the vid down below indicates, "disputed" is a better term......

 

[petros]

So it is or isn't occupied?

 

[earth_as_one]

BruSan,

If you read through this entire thread, and you only had problems with my posts, then you came to this thread with your mind already made up. Are you here to troll like CB or insult like Goober? If you are civil like Colpy, I'll read and consider your posts.

Let me clarify the way I perceive things.

I don't distinguish between Jews, Arabs, Christians, Muslims, Chinese. From my viewpoint, we are all brethren.

The people responsible for cleaning up a mess should be the same people who created it.

All war criminals should be held accountable for their crimes.

Ethnic cleansing is a crime against humanity.

Everyone should have the same fundamental human rights.

You cannot be a foreigner to the land where you were born.

All refugees have a right to their property and/or receive compensation.

I am against all oppression and injustice. I oppose it, regardless of the cause. In the cases of Tunisia, Egypt, Libya,Syria, Yemen, possibly Jordan, I support overthrowing the dictator. In the case of the Zionist State of israel, I oppose Zionism in its current violent form. I would support it, if the process was fair, just and mutually agreed upon.

I support a single state solution to this conflict where everyone has the same rights and freedoms because that would be a fair and just solution. A US veto of the Palestinian bid for statehood effectively kills all hope of a two state solution and increase pressure on Israel to grant Palestinians Israeli citizenship. Israel includes the West Bank and Gaza until the UN recognizes the State of Palestine and Palestinian citizenship. Until then, Israel, as the occupying force is responsible for all Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

Perhaps you'd like to share your opinions.

Do Israelis have any responsibility for the suffering described in detail by AI's 2010 report?
Amnesty International | Working to Protect Human Rights

Should Arabs and Jews be allowed to intermarry? Please describe your honest reaction to the thought of an Arab man marrying a Jewish woman.

Regarding the reservoir incident. The situation back then at the time of the sewage reservoir's collapse is much different than it is now. Since then, Gazans have increased their living standard. The improvement is nearly 100% attributable to smuggling. Currently cement and other building materials coming through the tunnels fuel a Gaza housing boom. Gazans can repair/replace broken infrastructure. Construction workers are busy again. Gaza almost has free trade with Egypt. Rates of malnutrition and disease have declined. While Gazans continue to suffer injustice and oppression, fewer are homeless or hungry. No doubt, the quantity and quality of arms smuggled into Gaza has also improved.

FYI: I oppose violence against both Palestinians and Israelis. I recognize the legitimacy of Israel's arms embargo. I am against Israel's interference regarding international humanitarian aid. I am against Israel collecting and withholding Palestinian taxes. I am against Israel shutting down Gaza's border when Gazans harvest flowers and fruit. Blocking Gaza exports are economic warfare and a form of collective punishment.