Gun Control is Completely Useless.

[cranky]

anti-gun law votes are really anti-rights and freedoms because they only propose to abolish private ownership of firearms. Criminals, police and military get to keep their firearms.

 

[petros]

Don't worry. I feel pre-disappointed for all those who were used in the last election and are going to get a wake up call soon enough.

 

[Taxx]

anti-gun law votes are really anti-rights and freedoms because they only propose to abolish private ownership of firearms. Criminals, police and military get to keep their firearms.

The military would be pretty screwed without them.

 

[Colpy]

Now that they don't need the support of the anti-gun law voters it will sink like a stone.

Wanna lay a small wager on that??

If the Long Gun Registry is not GONE by Dec. 31, 2011, I will post a thread called Petros is a Genius in which I will sincerely sing your praises in the initial post, with special emphasis on your analytical powers and your foresight.

If the Long Gun Registry is GONE by Dec. 31, 2011, you will post a thread called Colpy is a Genius in which you will sincerely sing my praises in the initial post, with special emphasis on my analytical powers and my foresight.



Oh, the initial post must be at least 200 words in length, without repetition.

 

[cranky]

darn, its a little outdated, and Peter Stoffer has already won, but check this out:

YouTube - Scrap the Long-gun Registry, vote Adam Mimnagh in Sackville-Eastern Shore

..............................................................

here's a quote from a macleans article that I like:

"You can build all the databases you like, but no properly trained officer of the law will ever enter a premises or stop a suspect without accounting for the possibility of a weapon coming into play. If one were to take the CACP at its word, and accept that the registry with all its inaccuracies is routinely used to “check for the presence of firearms” in homes being visited by police, one would be forced to consider the possibility that the damn thing is nothing but a digital Petri dish of overconfidence and carelessness—well worth consigning to oblivion in the name of safety and common sense alone."

Christie Blatchford - Topics - Macleans.ca

 

[Jack_Of_Spade]

Okay folks, I went crazy.

I got thinking about the insistence of the anti-gun folks that we don't want to be like the AMERICANS, with no gun control, and blood running in the streets! I had read that murder was so high in American ghettoes that it skewed national figures, as (obviously) there could be social causes for murder in those circumstances.........SOOOOOO

I went looking to isolate two populations, as close as possible in population make-up, culture, etc, with the ONLY difference being gun control laws. I settled on the west, the provinces of Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and Alberta in Canada, and the three American states that border them, Montana, North Dakota, and Minnesota. These seemed to be the best examples, as they are the two areas of Canada and the United States that are the most alike in population culture, etc., yet most different in gun legislation.

Let me lay it out for you.

In Canada, before you buy a long gun, you must pass a safety course, undergo an investigation, get references including your spouse, obtain a license, and register the firearm. Most military semi-autos are prohibited. Semi-auto rifles can only have magazines with 5 rounds

In these states, if you want the semi-auto version of the American military M-16, you walk into the gun store, put down your cash, buy the piece and as many 30 round magazines as you like. You wait a federally-mandated 7 days, and go get your rifle. No license, no registration, no course, any rifle is OK.

In Canada, the vast majority of handguns are prohibited. If you want a handgun, you must either be a collector, or a target shooter. Self-defense is NOT allowed. You must have a long gun license (see above), pass ANOTHER course, and register your pistol. You must belong to a gun club, and you are ONLY allowed to transfer the weapon back and forth from the club to home, it must be trigger locked, and in a locked case.

If you want a handgun in any of these states, it is exactly the same as the process for buying a military "assault" rifle in the Sates, as laid out above. No license, no registration, no course, no NOTHING. NO handguns are prohibited.

In Canada, getting a license to carry a handgun is practically impossible.

In these states, the gov't MUST give you a license to carry a handgun for self-defense if you don't have a criminal record.

Just to make it clear, here are the ratings for the states given by the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence: Montana (F), North Dakota (D), Minnesota ( C-)

Believe me, Canada would get an A+++ from Sarah Brady.

So, Canada is a wonderful, peaceful place where everyone is safe and happy, but step across the border and you trip over bodies and fall into the mess of blood, guts and expended shell casings, right?

Well, maybe not.

MURDER RATES
------------------------2000...2001...2002...2003...2004
Manitoba------------ 2.61...2.95...3.12...3.70... 4.27 (per 100,000)
(2002 - 1,151,000)-----30.....34......36.....43..... 49 (murders)

Saskatchewan------2.58...2.70... 2.71...4.12...3.92
(2002 - 1,000,000).... 26.... 27..... 27.....41.....39

Alberta---------------1.96...2.29... 2.25...2.03...2.69
(2002 - 3,056,000).... 60.....70......69.....62 .... 82

Montana.............1.80...3.80....1.80...3.30...3.20
(2003 - 917,000).......17.....35......17......30.....29

North Dakota.......0.60...1.10... 0.80....1.90...1.40
(2003 - 633,000)........4.......7.......5......12.......9

Minnesota..........3.10... 2.40... 2.20... 2.50...2.20
(2003 - 5,059,000)..157.....121.....111....126....111

HERE'S THE SHOCKER!


MURDER RATES PER 100,000
----------------------------------2000...2001...2002...2003...2004
Canada West-----------------2.22----2.52----2.54---2.80----3.26 (per 100,000)
Population 5,207,000........116.... 131.....132....146....170 (murders)

USA Northwest---------------2.69----2.47----2.01---2.54----2.25
Population 6,609,000........178.... 163......133....168.....149

GUN CONTROL IS A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME!
BTW Figuring this out took me HOURS.............Canadian stats are from Stats Canada, American Stats on population are from U.S. Population by State, 1790 to 2009 — FactMonster.com

American Stats on murder rates are from Murder Rates Nationally and By State | Death Penalty Information Center

Facts on state gun laws are from Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence

Math concerned is by ME.

Edited to say: DAMN, I had those all set out in coherent tables, but all spacing disappeared when I submitted it........so (being computer illiterate) I've used spacers......sorry about that)

This is a clear example of how smeone can bury facts using stats and per population evaluations.
Canadians want the numbers of poeple murdered or victims of fire arm related crimes and if we must lets compare to the States.

Fact! In 2006
Canadian police services reported just over 8,100 victims of violent gun crime, ranging from assault to robbery and homicide, accounting for 2.4% of all victims of violence. Handguns made up nearly two-thirds of all firearms used.

On average​

more than 1,200 Canadians ( avg. mean the number is around )are killed and over 1,000 injured with firearms​

each year.

According to the CDC in 2006 the gun related violence: Last up to date numbers, 30,896 total, of which, 642 accidental, 16,883 were Suicide, 12,791 were Homicide

220 were Undetermined and 360 by Legal intervention. Remember that in the same year, 43,664 were killed in Motor vehicle accidents, 37,286 died from poisoning, 20,823 died from unintention falls. In 2005 CDC reported 652,091 people died from heart disease, 559,312 from cancer and 143,579 from stroke.
If you look at the murder rate alone its 100 times greater in the States!
The average human bieng does care about distorted facts and stats . We care about poeple numbers and the smaller the body counts are in this contry the safer we feel.
The gun registry is not just about registering "your" gun its about giving our courts laws to fall back on when somone who who may be a suspect is found with a riffle in his trunk for example. An officer doesnt know what his intent is with that riffle so...A) if the gun is not registerd we have grounds to confiscate it and laws to detain that person with .Withought These laws to help our polices do ther jobs we have to let him go to do what ever his plan was and hope its not murder.


Read more: Answers.com - In America how many deaths are caused by guns annually
Read more: Answers.com - In America how many deaths are caused by guns annually​

​

 

[Colpy]

This is a clear example of how smeone can bury facts using stats and per population evaluations.
Canadians want the numbers of poeple murdered or victims of fire arm related crimes and if we must lets compare to the States.

Fact! In 2006
Canadian police services reported just over 8,100 victims of violent gun crime, ranging from assault to robbery and homicide, accounting for 2.4% of all victims of violence. Handguns made up nearly two-thirds of all firearms used.

On average​

more than 1,200 Canadians ( avg. mean the number is around )are killed and over 1,000 injured with firearms​

each year.

According to the CDC in 2006 the gun related violence: Last up to date numbers, 30,896 total, of which, 642 accidental, 16,883 were Suicide, 12,791 were Homicide

220 were Undetermined and 360 by Legal intervention. Remember that in the same year, 43,664 were killed in Motor vehicle accidents, 37,286 died from poisoning, 20,823 died from unintention falls. In 2005 CDC reported 652,091 people died from heart disease, 559,312 from cancer and 143,579 from stroke.
If you look at the murder rate alone its 100 times greater in the States!
The average human bieng does care about distorted facts and stats . We care about poeple numbers and the smaller the body counts are in this contry the safer we feel.
The gun registry is not just about registering "your" gun its about giving our courts laws to fall back on when somone who who may be a suspect is found with a riffle in his trunk for example. An officer doesnt know what his intent is with that riffle so...A) if the gun is not registerd we have grounds to confiscate it and laws to detain that person with .Withought These laws to help our polices do ther jobs we have to let him go to do what ever his plan was and hope its not murder.


Read more: Answers.com - In America how many deaths are caused by guns annually
Read more: Answers.com - In America how many deaths are caused by guns annually​

​

I understand that murder rates in the inner cities of the USA are astronomical...........and inflate the national rate immensely. But there are economic, racial, societal and cultural issues at work there.....I wanted to compare two entities very close in racial make-up, in comparative wealth, and in comparative culture......the ONLY difference being the availibility of firearms.

Turns out the guys carrying the handguns, and with full access to "assault" rifles are LESS apt to kill each other.

Argue THAT point.

Explain to me as well, why the murder rate in the USA has fallen 40% in the last 20 years, while gun restrictions have lessened to the point that 80% of American states allow legal concealed handgun carry by citizens??????

MUCH more importantly:
Explain to me why, immediately after the registration of Long Guns was completed (Dec.31, 2002) the murder rate in Canada INCREASED, and has yet to drop back below the rate prior to the registration???????

Hmmmm?????

And I just finished listened to Rex Murphy's Cross Country Check-up, on which show John Manley, formerly deputy PM for Chretien, listed gun control as one of the major reasons for the descent of the Liberal Party to near oblivion...

Which Charter right has been violated by the Firearms Act? You have to establish that a clause in the Charter has been violated before you can apply Oakes test.

The right to ber free from unreasonable search.

The right to remain silent.

There's the two most blatant violations.

 

[cranky]

Am I jumping the "gun" in believing the Registry is going to be gone before the end of the first session of the 41st parliament?

I was thinking of starting an email campaign that makes it very clear that we will not vote for a conservative party that does not dismantle the gun registry before the end of this term.

 

[Mowich]

I understand that murder rates in the inner cities of the USA are astronomical...........and inflate the national rate immensely. But there are economic, racial, societal and cultural issues at work there.....I wanted to compare two entities very close in racial make-up, in comparative wealth, and in comparative culture......the ONLY difference being the availibility of firearms.

Turns out the guys carrying the handguns, and with full access to "assault" rifles are LESS apt to kill each other.

Argue THAT point.

Explain to me as well, why the murder rate in the USA has fallen 40% in the last 20 years, while gun restrictions have lessened to the point that 80% of American states allow legal concealed handgun carry by citizens??????

MUCH more importantly:
Explain to me why, immediately after the registration of Long Guns was completed (Dec.31, 2002) the murder rate in Canada INCREASED, and has yet to drop back below the rate prior to the registration???????

Hmmmm?????

And I just finished listened to Rex Murphy's Cross Country Check-up, on which show John Manley, formerly deputy PM for Chretien, listed gun control as one of the major reasons for the descent of the Liberal Party to near oblivion...



The right to ber free from unreasonable search.

The right to remain silent.

There's the two most blatant violations.

A very potent argument, Colpy, especially the increase in the murder rate after the long gun registry came into being.

The long gun registry has been a black hole for taxpayers money since its inception. From the millions wasted on the wrong computer systems at the beginning right through and up to today, the LGR has been wildly inefficient. It was an ill-conceived law which did nothing to make the streets safer or prevent crime with hand-guns. It unjustly targeted law-abiding Canadians who depended upon hunting to help fill their freezers and whose 'streets' are dirt roads where crime is so rare an occurrence that it becomes part of local lore.

I will not be sorry to see this law abolished.

 

[Jack_Of_Spade]

I understand that murder rates in the inner cities of the USA are astronomical...........and inflate the national rate immensely. But there are economic, racial, societal and cultural issues at work there.....I wanted to compare two entities very close in racial make-up, in comparative wealth, and in comparative culture......the ONLY difference being the availibility of firearms.

Turns out the guys carrying the handguns, and with full access to "assault" rifles are LESS apt to kill each other.

Argue THAT point.

Explain to me as well, why the murder rate in the USA has fallen 40% in the last 20 years, while gun restrictions have lessened to the point that 80% of American states allow legal concealed handgun carry by citizens??????

MUCH more importantly:
Explain to me why, immediately after the registration of Long Guns was completed (Dec.31, 2002) the murder rate in Canada INCREASED, and has yet to drop back below the rate prior to the registration???????

Hmmmm?????

And I just finished listened to Rex Murphy's Cross Country Check-up, on which show John Manley, formerly deputy PM for Chretien, listed gun control as one of the major reasons for the descent of the Liberal Party to near oblivion...



The right to ber free from unreasonable search.

The right to remain silent.

There's the two most blatant violations.

First of all Colby don't get me wrong I persoanly believe that every Canadian should have the right to bare arms and the right to use it for self defence. I dont believe in conventional war but I do believe in each individuals right to protect his life since we only have one life. No goverment has the right to take that away from me. I belive every canadian should be protected under the same rules of protection alowd to police officer when they carry and use there weapons.When our goverment writes in our contitution that No arm of the goverment (ex. Police) shall have th right to use guns on a citizen of Canada then I will vote against owning a gun.
My argument is in using comprative stats based on population quotas. Inviroment and conditioning is a direct cause of violence so it would be to simplistic to say guns are the problem. The body counts is what I look at and the American lead us on that one. The weapon of choise is actualy knives in canada but I dont know about America ! The fact is though that alot of poeple who easly kill from a distance would not do so up close . Guns alow them the bravery they dont have up close. The gun is the great equalizer since you dont have to be 6 foot 4 inches to win a fight with a gun.The gun registry doent bother me if it alows me to own a gun or a riffle for when the need to protect my life ever occurs.

First of all Colby don't get me wrong I persoanly believe that every Canadian should have the right to bare arms and the right to use it for self defence. I dont believe in conventional war but I do believe in each individuals right to protect his life since we only have one life. No goverment has the right to take that away from me. I belive every canadian should be protected under the same rules of protection alowd to police officer when they carry and use there weapons.When our goverment writes in our contitution that No arm of the goverment (ex. Police) shall have th right to use guns on a citizen of Canada then I will vote against owning a gun.
My argument is in using comprative stats based on population quotas. Inviroment and conditioning is a direct cause of violence so it would be to simplistic to say guns are the problem. The body counts is what I look at and the American lead us on that one. The weapon of choise is actualy knives in canada but I dont know about America ! The fact is though that alot of poeple who easly kill from a distance would not do so up close . Guns alow them the bravery they dont have up close. The gun is the great equalizer since you dont have to be 6 foot 4 inches to win a fight with a gun.The gun registry doent bother me if it alows me to own a gun or a riffle for when the need to protect my life ever occurs.

So in essence we both belive in owning gun we just dont have the same reason why. As for the gun registry the only reason it cost so much is because it wasnt handled likle any othert registerd item like cars.

What evidence has the Gov given that it will abolish anything?

Politics is about stratigy! Its easy to stand up and publicly declare you will abolish something when you know that you dont realy have the majority votes to do it! That what I was missing concerning Harper trying to abolish the registry! It didn't fit his persoanlity profile until I realise it was a stratigy! He has no intention of abolishing the regiustry. Here 's what I predict now that he has majority! He will come back with a revised gun control registration and the owners will pay the cost of the registration.

 

[Colpy]

Politics is about stratigy! Its easy to stand up and publicly declare you will abolish something when you know that you dont realy have the majority votes to do it! That what I was missing concerning Harper trying to abolish the registry! It didn't fit his persoanlity profile until I realise it was a stratigy! He has no intention of abolishing the regiustry. Here 's what I predict now that he has majority! He will come back with a revised gun control registration and the owners will pay the cost of the registration.

Care to lay a small wager on that???

Warning: I don't bet unless it is a sure thing.

 

[Jack_Of_Spade]

Care to lay a small wager on that???

Warning: I don't bet unless it is a sure thing.

You have my bet! Since it would not be gentalmenly to wager $ on such a serious issue the looser will make a sincere public appoligy to the other on this site . If I loose I will also publicly appoligise to PM Harper and give him a chance before I next critisize him on a issue.

 

[Colpy]

you have my bet! Since it would not be gentalmenly to wager $ on such a serious issue the looser will make a sincere public appoligy to the other on this site . If i loose i will also publicly appoligise to pm harper and give him a chance before i next critisize him on a issue.

done!

 

[cranky]

you should up the stakes and make that a sincere apology on youtube,,,,,how does that sound?

 

[Jack_Of_Spade]

you should up the stakes and make that a sincere apology on youtube,,,,,how does that sound?

I am so sure that Harper will not scrap the gun registry that I agree to apoligise on You Tube to both Colby and Harperif I am wrong.

 

[DaSleeper]

I am so sure that Harper will not scrap the gun registry that I agree to apoligise on You Tube to both Colby and Harperif I am wrong.

And if he turns around and just makes it a voluntary registry? which would be a solution to placate everybody that only long guns you hunt with would have to be registered.
Which of the two wins in that instance????

 

[Colpy]

And if he turns around and just makes it a voluntary registry? which would be a solution to placate everybody that only long guns you hunt with would have to be registered.
Which of the two wins in that instance????

I'll put it this way....the registry for non-restricted LONG GUNS will cease to exist in any form whatsoever.

 

[mentalfloss]

I am so sure that Harper will not scrap the gun registry that I agree to apoligise on You Tube to both Colby and Harperif I am wrong.

Please be sure to apologize to Canada as well.

 

[Colpy]

Please be sure to apologize to Canada as well.

No Chretien owes the apology for costing us 2 billion dollars for NOTHING.

 

[mentalfloss]

No Chretien owes the apology for costing us 2 billion dollars for NOTHING.