Freedom, Justice and Democracy RE:Egypt

[darkbeaver]

well, ok. I agree with the democracy aspect, let's just hope to god they don't then elect the Hezbollah into power or someone else who despises Western Civilization..

Like Ghandi said, western civilization is a good idea and someday it could be a reality. The modern junk popculture is too often mistaken for civilization, it plainly and painfully is not.

Mubarak's supporters are the Army as I mentioned before, so far they are a big mystery as which way they will go, as for Mubarak I agree he must resign tonight, he has no tomorrow in Egypt. Free elections, in name only. Egypt will never have a truly free election.

You should be hoping that Egypt does someday soon have free democratic elections because in that case perhaps the USA will also entertain the thought of free elections for it's people, instead of the usual tacky soap opera. Egypt will be an example to the long deluded citizens of the USA.

 

[earth_as_one]

Mubarak's supporters are the Army as I mentioned before, so far they are a big mystery as which way they will go, as for Mubarak I agree he must resign tonight, he has no tomorrow in Egypt. Free elections, in name only. Egypt will never have a truly free election.

I have no doubt that at the top levels, the military supports Mubarak. But the rank and file have more in common with the protesters. If the order came down for soldiers to shoot friends and family, my guess they will join the revolt.

So far the Egyptian military has acted with neutrality and professionalism.

I would agree that Egyptians will never free elections.... with the qualifier: "while Mubarak is in control".

I don't believe Egyptians are inferior and incapable of holding free elections. All nations are potentially capable of holding free and fair elections. This popular revolt indicates Egyptians are ready. It still remains to be seen if their leaders are also ready.

Compare Egyptians with Afghans and Iraqis who never fought for free and fair elections. A shamocracy was imposed on them by foreigners and the result was massive election fraud.

As Mabarak spoke. The crowd in Tahrir square booed and heckled him. He stated he would not seek re-election. The people responded with chants of "leave! leave!..."
The crowd is dispersing now, but already the organizers are planning another big protest on Friday. My guess is that if Mubarak doesn't step down by then, they intend to trash the place and then things really will get ugly.
Its time everyone who wants to see Egypt transition peaceful into a free democracy state clearly their solidarity with the protesters. Mubarak must leave now, or this is going to turn very ugly.
Where do you stand Stephen Harper, Mike Ignatieff and Jack Layton? Are you with Mubarak or with the Egyptian people? Time to make a statement one way of the other.

 

[ironsides]

This might be a rough night tonight.

 

[Johnny Utah]

Whoever ends up the new leader has a hard road ahead of him because he needs to send the message to the people and the World Egypt is safe and still open for foreign business because if he doesn't the economy will sink even more creating more heartache..

 

[earth_as_one]

A riot has broken out in Alexandria. Shots fired...

Pro-Mubarak supporters are clashing with the protesters and the military is trying to keep the two groups apart as they hurl projectiles at each other...

Al Jazeera English: Live Stream - Watch Now - Al Jazeera English

Looks like the shots were fired in the air to disperse pro-Mubarak trouble makers and the military succeeded in preventing a huge brawl for the moment. The current situation is tense as soldiers have their weapons drawn.

The military did not fire into the crowd, but seem to have used gunfire to catch everyone's attention. It worked.

Looks like the pro-Mubarak people have regrouped but keeping their distance as the military talks to both sides. The situation seems to be defusing.

 

[Johnny Utah]

A riot has broken out in Alexandria. Shots fired...

Pro-Mubarak supporters are clashing with the protesters and the military is trying to keep the two groups apart as they hurl projectiles at each other...

Al Jazeera English: Live Stream - Watch Now - Al Jazeera English

Looks like the shots were fired in the air to disperse pro-Mubarak trouble makers and the military succeeded in preventing a huge brawl for the moment. The current situation is tense as soldiers have their weapons drawn.

The military did not fire into the crowd, but seem to have used gunfire to catch everyone's attention. It worked.

Looks like the pro-Mubarak people have regrouped but keeping their distance as the military talks to both sides. The situation seems to be defusing.

Hopefully cooler heads prevail because if they don't this could spin out of control very fast into a nightmare..

 

[earth_as_one]

The military is keeping the two groups apart... People are leaving the square. More shots fired, but it looks like the military are just firing into the air.

Similar clashes are taking place in Cairo, between 300 pro-Mubarak people in cars with protesters as they leave Tahrir square. Again the military has intervened between the groups

That situation in Alexandria seems back to normal now. If it wasn't for the military, that could have easily turned into a riot.

 

[damngrumpy]

The whole exercise has nothing to do democracy. There are conflicting groups that
want to maintain their own brand of dictatorship for different reasons. Mubarak wants us
to believe he is right for the country. Never has been and won't be in the future. This man
should leave town before the roof falls in completely.
America wants an Egypt that is friendly to Israel and is a stabilizing influence on the rest of
the region. there are all kinds of demonstrators that are out there believing there is a future
of freedom while the Muslim Brotherhood pulls the strings, and the ball of wool over the eyes
of those who believe they are working toward freedom. Behind the scene is a despotic
group waiting to claim power and revamp the military into their own image and likeness.
If it were true that democracy even had a chance I would be inclined to support the demonstrators.
The truth is though, that as soon as the opportunity presents itself all images of freedom will be
swept away and more people will die than did under the current regime.
This is not about freedom. it is about the building of veiled curtain of terror and a lot of folks will
do the suffering.

 

[gopher]

''Iran's leaders are hypocrites. They already demonstrated their true colors when it comes to dealing with peaceful protests of freedom seekers''

Fascist Islam Karimov in Uzbek was a hundred times more brutal than anyone else and he got full support from Bush. I have raised this matter in the past on this forum and to this day I am still waiting for the forum's right wingers to condemn Bush for supporting him and his repression.

 

[darkbeaver]

"a stabilizing influence" for the greater part of the twentieth century was and still is the battle cry of fascists. Millions have been stabilized into the slavery of the international bankers, millions more stabilized into graves and still millions more stabilized into mindless consumers. Stability sucks.

 

[DaSleeper]

''Iran's leaders are hypocrites. They already demonstrated their true colors when it comes to dealing with peaceful protests of freedom seekers''

Fascist Islam Karimov in Uzbek was a hundred times more brutal than anyone else and he got full support from Bush. I have raised this matter in the past on this forum and to this day I am still waiting for the forum's right wingers to condemn Bush for supporting him and his repression.

You're suffering from Bush itis. Everything with you goes back to Bush. You have to mention his name every day

 

[Colpy]

You're suffering from Bush itis. Everything with you goes back to Bush. You have to mention his name every day

Funny about Mr. Bush.....you know, when he was setting up a democracy in Iraq, the left was crying out about how the Arab "culture" did not want democracy.............

Now, they may well have been correct. But my, how they have changed their tune.......

 

[lone wolf]

Democracy really seems to be doing great things - for they who hoard the loot. Funny how one can bitch and whine about Quebec being crammed down one's throat while, at the same time, being so rabid about forcing foreign ideals on another culture.

 

[Colpy]

Mubarak's supporters would like to frame this issue that way, but that's not what's going on. This is about freedom and democracy. You either support the right of Egyptians to freely choose their government by democratic means or you don't. While its possible that Egyptians might one day elect a government the US doesn't like, that's beside the point and not what's going on right now. The first step is to get replace the dictator with a caretaker government. I understand fear of the unknown, but that's no reason support injustice and oppression in Egypt.

The Muslim Brotherhood can not be allowed to seize power in Egypt.

That is not impossible.....remember the secular nature of Iran's revolution? And now the people have to take to the streets in the face of the tyranny of Islam.......a much more difficult enemy of liberty than a secular dictator.

Peace in the ME requires the suppression of the Muslim Brotherhood. It is that simple. These boys live by the Koran and the Hadith, which demand the killing of Jews......

I work with a girl that fled Algeria.......born and brought up Muslim, she refers to her co-religionists as 'barbarians"
And then there is Ayaan Hirsi Ali.....once a follower of the Brotherhood...

"The kind of thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia, and among the Muslim Brotherhood in Kenya and Somalia, is not compatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves a feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honour and shame. It rests on self-deception, hypocrisy, and double standards."

Infidel, by Ayaan Hirsi Ali page 347.

 

[earth_as_one]

If you don't like the Muslim Brotherhood, then I guess you shouldn't vote for them. BTW Are you Egyptian?

Since Egyptians can't tell Canadians who we can or can't elect, I guess we shouldn't presume to be able to tell them.

Meanwhile in Tahrir Square... downtown Cairo:

Aljazeera live blog:

10:45pm Clashes in Tahrir Square being described as medieval. Anti-government supporters are moving makeshift metal barricades slowly forward, one by one.

10:55pm Latest from Al Jazeera Web Producer in Cairo's Tahrir Square:

The pro-Mubarak crowd suddenly retreated, and the pro-democracy protesters advanced a moveable wall of metal shields to a new front line much further up.


A side battle erupted down a street behind the pro-Mubarak lines, with rock throwing and molotov cocktails.


An armored personnel carrier opened fire into the air, shooting red tracers up over Cairo, in an apparent effort to disperse/frighten the pro-Mubarak crowd, who contracted again.


The pro-democracy protesters are now advancing their line of staggered metal shields farther and farther and seem to have gained decisive momentum.
​

11:06pm Pro-democracy protesters beating on metal barricades in unison, in celebration after driving pro-Mubarak groups back.

Live blog Feb 2 - Egypt protests | Al Jazeera Blogs

 

[Dexter Sinister]

... pro-Mubarak groups...

What odds they're actually the secret police?

 

[Colpy]

What odds they're actually the secret police?

Very good.

According to a news report I just heard, the individual killed was a undercover police officer, and the police were paying pro Mubarak protestors.

Not the first time somebody has used rent-a-mob.

If you don't like the Muslim Brotherhood, then I guess you shouldn't vote for them. BTW Are you Egyptian?

Since Egyptians can't tell Canadians who we can or can't elect, I guess we shouldn't presume to be able to tell them.

Meanwhile in Tahrir Square... downtown Cairo:

Aljazeera live blog:

You claim to be a pacifist, interested in human rights

If that were so, you would be exceptionally concerned with the chance Egypt might slip into the hands of the Muslim Brotherhood........

Here is an example of what that would mean from the other great Muslim nation "freed" (lol) by a secular revolution...

Sayeh Hassan: Frightened Iran steps up its murders | Full Comment | National Post

There can not be liberty, human rights or peace under the Brotherhood.

One would think that might concern you. I guess not.

One does not have to be a Mubarak supporter to worry about the country slipping even further into tyranny......

 

[darkbeaver]

Tyranny is the evil country right next door, someday we will see Egypt slipping into it. Pay back is a bitch. Ultimately Egypts freedom depends on the control of the source of the weapons used to suppress the will of the people for the last three decades. Tyranny is running out of slither room.

 

[earth_as_one]

I'm sure the Egyptian people know who both the Muslim brotherhood and the boogie man are.

Yes they are a bit on the zealous side for my taste. I suspect a majority of secular Egyptians probably won't be voting for them. I predict that at best they might form part of a coalition. Ultimately, that's not my business or yours. Hopefully the rest of the world is going to have to deal with who ever the Egyptian freely elect in fair elections. Yes its possible that after 30 years of Western supported oppression and injustice might result in a hostile anti-West government. I don't propose solving this hostility problem by imposing another pro-West dictator on these people against their will.

Also I agree that the Iranian regime is extreme. Maybe we should learn from that mistake and not try to support an unpopular dictator long after the people have expressed their dissent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_Revolution#Start_of_demonstrations_in_late_1977

This time the military acted very professionally and maintained neutrality.. at least so far. Their maint focus has been to try to keep the protests peaceful, limiting violence and property damage as best they can. For that reason, I suspect the result will be different.

Frankly I find your attitude toward the Egyptian people rather condescending and maybe even arrogant.

 

[darkbeaver]

And we also have to think that insurrection right next door to the "light of the world" might be the flames of war being fanned to just the right temperature to set off WWIII with just a touch of plausible deniability afforded, what with all the western pleading for controlled prolonged transition.


never let a good crisis go to waste,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,who said that?