Socialist Party of Canada

Jroc

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
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Barrie
Actually it was trying to run a business through ten years of dipper mismanagement that confirmed my belief that socialism is bad.
Your simplistic view of socialism makes you come across as a child. Take our word for it, socialism is bad and will destroy our collective wealth.

There really is nothing complicated about socialism. I am asserting that socialism has not been tried anywhere in the world, and in previous posts I have made clear my reasoning for this. Further, I have already discussed why the NDP has nothing to do with socialism, even they do not claim they are a socialist party.

Your assertion that socialism will destroy our collective wealth is ill thought out. Our current system, capitalism, mismanages and destroys our collective wealth. How can you honestly defend a system in which the wealth created through the labour of 90% of society is owned and controlled by the top 10% of people? That to me represents the destruction of collective wealth. Please explain how I am wrong.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
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In the bush near Sudbury
Have you seen what happens when blocks are put on company profits? I can show you a lot of empty fields where once big factories stood when those "capitalists" moved offshore. Maybe if you can convince the entire planet at the same time and re-educate the wealthy, the educated....
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Jroc; How can you honestly defend a system in which the wealth created through the labour of 90% of society is owned and controlled by the top 10% of people? [/QUOTE said:
Because we like it and we voted for it? We all have the opportunity to be in that top 10%- a lot of us choose not to. When we feel "the top 10%" is ripping us off we look for another job. :smile: I understand how your system works- you can take a litter of pigs down to the car dealership and come home with a car, in the present system we just sell the pigs first and still come home with a car. :smile:
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
There really is nothing complicated about socialism. I am asserting that socialism has not been tried anywhere in the world, and in previous posts I have made clear my reasoning for this. Further, I have already discussed why the NDP has nothing to do with socialism, even they do not claim they are a socialist party.

Your assertion that socialism will destroy our collective wealth is ill thought out. Our current system, capitalism, mismanages and destroys our collective wealth. How can you honestly defend a system in which the wealth created through the labour of 90% of society is owned and controlled by the top 10% of people? That to me represents the destruction of collective wealth. Please explain how I am wrong.


Your ideals are too simplistic and reliant upon a dependency that all people are perfectly equal in all ways. The reality is that people are different and represent different abilities and skill sets. These differences translate into hierarchies being established which leads to differential treatment of those people.

By your generalized definitions/descriptions, we are now in the capitalist realm.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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Jroc: Apparently you have never had any interaction with the B.C. NDP. Most of them make Layton look like a moderate conservative. Anyway if you like socialism so much you should move to Greece. I hear it is working out really well for them.

Actually it is nowhere near 90% of the labour force creating wealth since we have so many government employees and they do not create any wealth. Also under the capitalist system EVERYONE has the right to belong to the upper 10%
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Excuse me if you think I'm being nosy Jroc, but if you feel inclined I'd be interested in knowing your background. (You don't have to answer) I'd like to know your age, formal education level, years in the work force and your occupation. :smile:
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
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Good question. Currently there are many colborative software systems out there. Linux and wikipedia are just two off the top of my head. In a socialist society, all information, software, computure code, and ideas would be free and open for all to use and contribute to. This is in opposition to the situation we have now where information is owned, controlled, and commodified.

Socialism will allow humanity to share and develope ideas like we never have before. Because all wealth, even intangible wealth would be free for everyone, no monopoly over information could occur, and thus ideas and solutions to problems could develope much quicker.
cheers
The Wikipedia cooperative makes no one a red cent. They beg for handouts every year to pay their bills.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Jroc: Apparently you have never had any interaction with the B.C. NDP. Most of them make Layton look like a moderate conservative. Anyway if you like socialism so much you should move to Greece. I hear it is working out really well for them.

Actually it is nowhere near 90% of the labour force creating wealth since we have so many government employees and they do not create any wealth. Also under the capitalist system EVERYONE has the right to belong to the upper 10%

I couldn't agree more.
 

Jroc

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
44
1
8
Barrie
Jroc: Apparently you have never had any interaction with the B.C. NDP. Most of them make Layton look like a moderate conservative. Anyway if you like socialism so much you should move to Greece. I hear it is working out really well for them.

You are correct, I have never had any interaction with the BC NDP. I have said it in my previous posts, and I will reiterate it once again; socialism has never been implemented anywhere in the world. What you are refering to in Greece, is state capitalism, the government is socialist in name only. The problem with parties like the NDP and the Greek socialist party is that they attempt to reform capitalism to work in the interests of the working class. This is impossible. It is akin to running a slaughter house in the interests of cattle.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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But reforming the world, or all the people of a country, to work under a cooperative is impossible. That's why it has never happened and never will.
 

Jroc

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
44
1
8
Barrie
Excuse me if you think I'm being nosy Jroc, but if you feel inclined I'd be interested in knowing your background. (You don't have to answer) I'd like to know your age, formal education level, years in the work force and your occupation. :smile:

For what reason do you want to know this?
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
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You are correct, I have never had any interaction with the BC NDP. I have said it in my previous posts, and I will reiterate it once again; socialism has never been implemented anywhere in the world. What you are refering to in Greece, is state capitalism, the government is socialist in name only. The problem with parties like the NDP and the Greek socialist party is that they attempt to reform capitalism to work in the interests of the working class. This is impossible. It is akin to running a slaughter house in the interests of cattle.

I think communism is just enforced socialism. So U.S.S.R. (1917-1989) would be a good example.

For what reason do you want to know this?

So I know where you are coming from. But for the hell of it I'm going to take a stab.
Age 25-35, formal education- some university, years in the work force - less than 10, occupation - in the service sector. How close am I?
 

Jroc

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
44
1
8
Barrie
I think communism is just enforced socialism. So U.S.S.R. (1917-1989) would be a good example.

Im sorry to say that your assertion has no basis in fact. The terms communism and socialism can be used interchangeably. Both terms refer to a system of society based upon the democratic common ownership of the means and instruments of producing wealth. Ask yourself whether or not the Soviet Union fit this definition. Such a society would be devoid of class structure, have free access to wealth, and have no exploitation. Cheers

I think communism is just enforced socialism. So U.S.S.R. (1917-1989) would be a good example.



So I know where you are coming from. But for the hell of it I'm going to take a stab.
Age 25-35, formal education- some university, years in the work force - less than 10, occupation - in the service sector. How close am I?

Pretty close:lol: Good work sherlock lol
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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For what reason do you want to know this?

Because your simplistic idea of life is why I made the reference to your having just read Marx.Or is still in school debating team. And I agree that on paper socialism is great. but only on paper.
It is rather like having an engineer with a computer just out of university telling us how to build something. True story- I grew up in a logging camp and mostly build logging roads. On a bridge that I was installing the MoF engineer in charge was right out of university and had a pretty little computer drawing with the rip rap(large boulders) in a nice neat row, all exactly the same size. When we were finished he made the rather stupid remark that the rip rap did not look anything like his computer generated drawing. The laughter caused several coffee cups to spill.
Moral-Life experience is often much more important and workable than theory and schoolboy debates.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Such a society would be devoid of class structure, have free access to wealth, and have no exploitation. Cheers

That is a myth unless you are talking about someone with a rich family who doesn't have the gumption to boot their ass out the door as soon as they reach 18.
 

Jroc

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
44
1
8
Barrie
Because your simplistic idea of life is why I made the reference to your having just read Marx.Or is still in school debating team. And I agree that on paper socialism is great. but only on paper.
It is rather like having an engineer with a computer just out of university telling us how to build something. True story- I grew up in a logging camp and mostly build logging roads. On a bridge that I was installing the MoF engineer in charge was right out of university and had a pretty little computer drawing with the rip rap(large boulders) in a nice neat row, all exactly the same size. When we were finished he made the rather stupid remark that the rip rap did not look anything like his computer generated drawing. The laughter caused several coffee cups to spill.
Moral-Life experience is often much more important and workable than theory and schoolboy debates.

I respect your opinion, and agree that experience trumps theory, most of the time. Interesting that you worked in a logging camp in BC. That is tough work, I would imagine. It was in the BC logging camps that the Socialist Party had its greatest support in Canada. In fact, at one time, it was the support of the loggers that allowed 13 socialist party members to be voted to the BC legislature in the first half of the 20th century.

That being said, socialism, on paper, offers us more than can be imagined. It has never been tried, and therefore we cannot know if it is feasible. It would be very unwise to suppose that capitalism will remain as the current system in the world indefinately. Either it is replaced by a more sane system of society, or it will eventually run this planet into the ground. It is my opinion that, sadly, the end of capitalism, may be the end of the world.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
547
113
Vernon, B.C.
Because your simplistic idea of life is why I made the reference to your having just read Marx.Or is still in school debating team. And I agree that on paper socialism is great. but only on paper.
It is rather like having an engineer with a computer just out of university telling us how to build something. True story- I grew up in a logging camp and mostly build logging roads. On a bridge that I was installing the MoF engineer in charge was right out of university and had a pretty little computer drawing with the rip rap(large boulders) in a nice neat row, all exactly the same size. When we were finished he made the rather stupid remark that the rip rap did not look anything like his computer generated drawing. The laughter caused several coffee cups to spill.
Moral-Life experience is often much more important and workable than theory and schoolboy debates.

Unbelieveable- your engineer was even dumber than some I worked under. I did work for one smart engineer. He got his degree by correspondence while working. He was about 90% common sense, 10% technical.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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Unbelieveable- your engineer was even dumber than some I worked under. I did work for one smart engineer. He got his degree by correspondence while working. He was about 90% common sense, 10% technical.

Had a few like that as well. Sure make the job go smoother.

I respect your opinion, and agree that experience trumps theory, most of the time. Interesting that you worked in a logging camp in BC. That is tough work, I would imagine. It was in the BC logging camps that the Socialist Party had its greatest support in Canada. In fact, at one time, it was the support of the loggers that allowed 13 socialist party members to be voted to the BC legislature in the first half of the 20th century.

That being said, socialism, on paper, offers us more than can be imagined. It has never been tried, and therefore we cannot know if it is feasible. It would be very unwise to suppose that capitalism will remain as the current system in the world indefinately. Either it is replaced by a more sane system of society, or it will eventually run this planet into the ground. It is my opinion that, sadly, the end of capitalism, may be the end of the world.

Therein lies the problem. It looks so good on paper. But you have to factor in human greed and I don't mean just the management(for lack of a better term). All it takes is one lazy bum to drag down the whole operation. And why should some of us bust our butts to get ahead or even get an education with all the responsibility that goes with it when some one else pushes a broom around a bit and has the same pay?
Read Animal Farm and really pay attention to the story. That is how socialism would work in reality. Read Ann Rand. I know she is a little right of you but there is a message in the stories about socialism and they are not that far off base.
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
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Mountain Veiw County
Perhaps a cursory look at the study of anthropology will educate you on this. Hunter gatherer societies that are still in existence today are a more or less sufficient example of what human societies looked like before the neolithic revolution. Further, your math is wrong. As I said, humans have been around in their present evolutionary form for around 200,000 years. It was not until the neolithic revolution, circa 10,000-5,000 BC that civilization developed. If you do the math you will see that from the neolithic to current day is only approximately 2.5-5% of our history as modern homo sapien, not to even mention our evolutionary ancestors. Not a very large percentage to make an argument about the nature of mankind.

Who's to say what human societies looked like before written history? This is still studied, debated and argued. I don't remember using any math to be wrong or otherwise, but using the time period between history and prehistory to develop public policy, especially when it cannot be proven, would seem ludicrous to even the least reasonable person. The most primitive hunter/gatherer societies in both the human and animal world still have their hierarchies, and the higher up you are the more you are rewarded.

The rich owners of wealth are, by definition parasitic.

Huh? They got rich by osmosis? Except, I suppose for those who inherited wealth, the others who achieved it did so by actually doing something profitable.

Many people use the absurd argument that we need rich people to give us jobs. This is nonsense. Work is carried out socially because, as a society we need to produce things. Even if there were no capitalists, rich people, work would still take place, albeit, production would be organized in much more democratic and horizontal way.

Well, the unfortunate reality is that someone needs to own the means of production, it follows that it is the rich who do, it is not absurd. As a society we do not need to produce things, only survive. What you are doing is putting the cart before the horse. Necessity being the mother of invention, we produce things because we want or need them, the inventors get paid to invent, the workers get paid to produce, and someone has to have the venture capital to start it up, simple. I don't know about you but I can't afford the equipment I use for employment, but I'm glad someone else can, and I don't work just for the fun of it.

What you are confusing, and fail to understand is this;

All wealth is produced through the labour of the working class. The working class has no ownership over the wealth THEY produce, rather it is appropriated into the hands of capitalists. Capitalists do nothing except for siphon off wealth that is created through the labour of workers.

You are the one confused, wealth would not be created without capital, and unless the working class are willing to put up the capital they are not deserving of ownership of the wealth they create, only the wages they are able to negotiate. Socialism wants all the reward with none of the risk.

It actually sounds like a way to punish those with more ability.

I'm only quoting the Marxist mantra, I think. They think it is Utopia, but you and I know it for what it is.