Socialist Party of Canada

Jroc

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
44
1
8
Barrie
That wasn't my argument, that was somebody else. And no, basic behavioral traits do not differ in every member of the species, I didn't say that either, I was talking in much broader terms: genetically we are all different, even identical twins differ slightly, but we share a common humanity and heritage and certain common needs. At least most of us do, those that don't we call sociopaths or psychopaths, and evolution throws a few of them up every now and then too. It's a mistake to talk about "good traits," natural selection makes no value judgments, it simply favours those with traits that enable differential reproductive success. It's not a progression from lower to higher, or good to better to best, it's about what works in particular circumstances. Evolution has no direction, so it's also a mistake to talk about the inevitable evolution of societies toward socialism in Darwinian terms. That's not how things work, there's no inevitable "progress" in evolution, there's only adaptation to current conditions via differential reproductive success. That's all evolution cares about.

Your assessment of evolutionary development is sound. The only thing I take issue with is your assumption that socialist believe in social evolution in the Darwinian sense. Ideas such as this are, as you have rightly stated, incorrect. Rather, Marxists look the historical progression of society in a dialectical sense. Observing the historical transitions from one socio-economic order to the next show us that human history is one of class antagonisms, within which the oppressed class eventually overtake and become the new ruling class in society. In roman times there were on the one hand, patricians and nights, and on the other plebeian and slaves. Feudalism had the lords and the serfs. Capitalism has bourgeois and working class.

In each of these historical epochs, the subordinate class eventually overcame the dominant class, resulting in a new set of social relationships from which the next social order could develop. Primitive communistic food foraging society's gave way to the Asiatic mode of production, which in turn led to the Greek and Roman slave based economies. The decline of the Roman empire after the Germanic invasions synthesized Roman civilization with Germanic tribal society, eventually leading to the development of feudalism. Within Feudal society sprang up medieval towns and a rising class of merchants. These merchants eventually overtook the feudal lords, ushering in the era of capitalism. In each of these stages, there was the resolution of antagonism between a subordinate class and a dominant class, leading to the establishment of a new social order in which new class antagonisms develop. Capitalism has as its antagonism the struggle between capitalist and worker. Eventually, materialists argue, the workers will overtake the dominant bourgeois class and establish as system of society based on common ownership.
 
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Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
Eventually, materialists argue, the workers will overtake the dominant bourgeois class and establish as system of society based on common ownership.
And what makes you believe that the workers won't become just another dominant class and the cycle will begin all over again? That's been the history of every communist revolution, none of them have worked the way Marx said they would, and you and your fellow traveler Socialist just keep insisting those weren't really properly socialist revolutions. You begin to sound like you protest too much; somebody tries it, it fails, and your response is, "Oh, they didn't do it right, that wasn't real socialism." You're sounding in fact like a religious proselytizer.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
44,850
193
63
Nakusp, BC
And what makes you believe that the workers won't become just another dominant class and the cycle will begin all over again? That's been the history of every communist revolution, none of them have worked the way Marx said they would, and you and your fellow traveler Socialist just keep insisting those weren't really properly socialist revolutions. You begin to sound like you protest too much; somebody tries it, it fails, and your response is, "Oh, they didn't do it right, that wasn't real socialism." You're sounding in fact like a religious proselytizer.
Is there really such a big difference between politics and religion? Some are caught up in the dogma of it all, some dabble and some just don't give a damn. Both have various views of what they mean, how they should be implemented, who should be in control, who makes decisions. It all looks pretty much the same to me.

If we are to have a radical change in how humans interact, make a living and other wise live their lives, in other words, move ahead, we need to drop all the old models of both politics and religion and come up with something that is more in keeping with where we are as a technological species, not what we were in the past.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
12,255
1,271
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60
Alberta
I agree that all people have different wants, needs, and vices, but to say that greed is human nature is not exactly true. It may be counter-intuitive to think that humans are not by nature selfish and greedy, but there is a substantial volume of hard evidence against such thinking.

Human's by nature, are as different in their wants and needs as there are stars in the universe. I am not saying that all people are greedy or that all are selfish, but in order for a society to become a socialist society you will need to modify the behavior of the group. That's when we get into human rights issues. Why would I be selfish because I might be more ambitious than my neighbor and want a bigger house or car.

This anthropological study looks at human altruism as a beneficial social mechanism. This sociological article argues much the same thing, and this particular article discusses how human altruism developed as an evolutionary trait necessary for the survival and promotion of our species. There is countless more peer reviewed research to back up this claim all of which is fairly easy to access over the internet.

Propaganda. There are plenty of studies that say the Jews inflated the holocaust numbers. There are people who think that vaccinating your child leads to increased chances of developing autism. Pretty much any agenda can be pushed or slanted.


It is easy to think that it is human nature to be selfish and greedy, but in truth this is just a behavior that has been developed in response to the economic and material conditions under which humans live.

More propaganda. I am all for being my brothers keeper and subscribe to socialist programs like public education, public healthcare. However, I will not surrender my rights as an individual and socialism requires that in order to work.
 

Jroc

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
44
1
8
Barrie
Human's by nature, are as different in their wants and needs as there are stars in the universe. I am not saying that all people are greedy or that all are selfish, but in order for a society to become a socialist society you will need to modify the behavior of the group. That's when we get into human rights issues. Why would I be selfish because I might be more ambitious than my neighbor and want a bigger house or car.



Propaganda. There are plenty of studies that say the Jews inflated the holocaust numbers. There are people who think that vaccinating your child leads to increased chances of developing autism. Pretty much any agenda can be pushed or slanted.




More propaganda. I am all for being my brothers keeper and subscribe to socialist programs like public education, public healthcare. However, I will not surrender my rights as an individual and socialism requires that in order to work.

Funny, I did not know that peer reviewed scholarly research based on facts was considered propaganda.
 

Jroc

New Member
Aug 23, 2010
44
1
8
Barrie
Universities are the central nervous system of the propaganda machine.

That is rediculous. Yes, Im sure that the group of nerdy anthropologist studying primate groups, and the biologists studying genetics have some sordid hidden agenda. Get real.

Universities are the central nervous system of the propaganda machine.

That is rediculous. Yes, Im sure that the group of nerdy anthropologist studying primate groups, and the biologists studying genetics have some sordid hidden agenda. Get real.
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
12,255
1,271
113
60
Alberta
That is rediculous. Yes, Im sure that the group of nerdy anthropologist studying primate groups, and the biologists studying genetics have some sordid hidden agenda. Get real.



That is rediculous. Yes, Im sure that the group of nerdy anthropologist studying primate groups, and the biologists studying genetics have some sordid hidden agenda. Get real.

rediculous

Freudian Slip?

Have a sense of humor Jroc.

M
 

Socialist

New Member
Nov 19, 2010
31
0
6
Canada
Canadian Communist Conservative Party or CCCP...

How are they NOT Socialist?
Putting 'Communist' and 'Conservative' in the party name... Those (oxy)morons.

Is there really such a big difference between politics and religion? Some are caught up in the dogma of it all, some dabble and some just don't give a damn. Both have various views of what they mean, how they should be implemented, who should be in control, who makes decisions. It all looks pretty much the same to me.

If we are to have a radical change in how humans interact, make a living and other wise live their lives, in other words, move ahead, we need to drop all the old models of both politics and religion and come up with something that is more in keeping with where we are as a technological species, not what we were in the past.
Yes, that is exactly what Socialism proposes. Dropping Capitalism (the 'old system') and religion.

Ergo, Scientific Socialism, meaning not the whole "Jesus was a Socialist" act I've been hearing from some radical Christian-left peers.

Funny, I did not know that peer reviewed scholarly research based on facts was considered propaganda.
"To a conservative, everything is 'Socialist Propaganda'.... Except Fox news. They ''say it like it is'' "

Win?
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
114,207
13,103
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Low Earth Orbit
About a year ago a Chinese general gave a nice speech on China's military objectives for industry and living space for Chinese global encroachment.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
114,207
13,103
113
Low Earth Orbit
You're saying that. An American pimped out S.Korea is BROKE and needs China's invesment. N.Korea is merely going to be rolled over and aquired shortly.

You really need to pay attention to what is happening globally.
 

Socialist

New Member
Nov 19, 2010
31
0
6
Canada
You're saying that. An American pimped out S.Korea is BROKE and needs China's invesment. N.Korea is merely going to be rolled over and aquired shortly.

You really need to pay attention to what is happening globally.
I was confused, because of your lack of clarification in your post, so I interpreted.

I do pay attention to what happens globally, but China and N. Korea are somewhat secretive.