Taxed to death

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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48
Ontario
Well, there are two things people will do.

First, like you said, move to a more tax friendly country, or in other words take my business elsewhere. What does that do to the tax revenues, then when people move away? They're forwarding their pension cheques, taking their investment earnings with them and still using their OHIP if they work it right!

If anybody wants to do that, that is their right, it is a free country. If somebody goes to another country, he will be sacrificing the quality of life. According to UN, Canada has one of the highest qualities of life in the world.

Besides, which English speaking country do you think has lower taxation than Canada? USA? Britain? Australia? New Zealand? Dream on.


And how much money will NOT be spent here because people choose a more tax friendly country or province to reside or to do business?
If people do move to this mythical tax friendly country, I am sure Canada will survive.

Yes, you are certainly an obedient liberal, but the rule of law is the cornerstone of civilization, not taxation. Taxes pay for the rule of law,

It is quite well you remember that. Taxes indeed do pay for the rule of law. As they do for roads, bridges, infrastructure, education and defense. Take away taxation and take away all these things. What have you got left? Chaos, anarchy.

but if you remember, the total rate of taxation that brought down the Roman empire was approximately 10%, and the rate that instigated the Boston Tea Party was between 6% and 8%, (and we weren't living in caves). We are far beyond that now.

Do you really want to go back to the days of Boston Tea Party and its low taxes? Let us see. Cholera in New York, malaria in Philadelphia. No electricity, Salem witch trials were still to come.

Standard of living was appallingly low, so was the status of human rights. Do you really think that all the technological, economic and social advances from Boston Tea Party to today occurred without taxation playing a part in them?

I agree with SJP. Do you like roads, schools, a military??? I'd happily pay my taxes if I thought they were being spent responsibly. I'm not happy picking up the tab for Harper's recent $1B cocktail party which turned downtown Toronto into a mini police state.

Quite so earth, the important thing is to see to it that the tax money is spent wisely. But this constant grumbling about taxes really does not do anybody any good (I suppose it is a kind of psychological relief to be able to vent).

As far as not having money for retirement, well, I feel for some, but for most, you have yourself to blame. We have it pretty good in this country, and if you can't manage to carve out a pretty good life for yourself here, then you couldn't do it anywhere.

Quite so, I have said so many times. Many Canadians have provincial outlook, they like to bitch and grumble about anything and everything that happens in Canada. They don’t know how good they have it here. They should live abroad for a while.

Well, I have lived in USA and in Britain, for 7-8 years each, and from experience; I can categorically say that of the three, Canada is by far the best place to live. And UN agrees with that, Canada consistently scores near the top in their annual quality of life survey, Human development Index.
 

ansutherland

Electoral Member
Jun 24, 2010
192
2
18
Not only does Canada score amongst the top on the Human Developement Index, it has been number 1 many times.....I think more times than any other country.....maybe Norway wins that title?

Actually, on the topic of taxes and the HDI, if you look at the HDI, there is a pretty strong correlation between high rates of taxation and high HDI scores. Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Canada.....you don't see the US at the top, and if low taxes is where it's at, then why don't we see Monaco or the UAE near the top of the HDI?
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
You have so many topics going at once in your thread you might want to consider breaking them up. Do you want to discuss tax reform, crime and punishment, food additives, or energy costs?
 

bobnoorduyn

Council Member
Nov 26, 2008
2,262
28
48
Mountain Veiw County
It is quite well you remember that. Taxes indeed do pay for the rule of law. As they do for roads, bridges, infrastructure, education and defense. Take away taxation and take away all these things. What have you got left? Chaos, anarchy.

I do know this but it is your backward logic that obfuscates the truth. Taxes are the price we pay for the rule of law, a contract if you will, the result of rather than the reason for peaceful society. Taxes in and of themseves do not a just society make. Some seem to reason that if we raise taxes good things follow. In addition to the taxes you support for infrastructure, education, the good life, we have a plethora of user fees for services that were once covered by taxation, and taxes haven't gone down. When government becomes the largest single employer, or worse, employing up to half or more of the taxpaying workforce, we have a problem. Governments do not create wealth, they are a consumer of it. It cannot be all things to all people, though too many rely on the nanny state for just that. Many governments have fallen or are in such deep debt that quality of life suffers. Just take a look South to see how big government, even in a free country, is set to implode under its own weight. Raising taxes seems to be the only tool on governments' shelves, because they are loathe to cut the fat in their powerhouse.


Do you really want to go back to the days of Boston Tea Party and its low taxes? Let us see. Cholera in New York, malaria in Philadelphia. No electricity, Salem witch trials were still to come.

Do you think medical advances were made because of taxes? They were either made for profit or out of necessity. Why do you think drug companies have 20 year patents? Electricity? I don't know about you, but I pay for mine, it too is a profit driven enterprise. As for witch trials, we still have them, except they are called Human Rights Tribuanls, and paid for by us.

Standard of living was appallingly low, so was the status of human rights. Do you really think that all the technological, economic and social advances from Boston Tea Party to today occurred without taxation playing a part in them?

Who's to say that 200 years from now our standard of living will appear appalingly low? It is subjective, maybe the standard of living was quite adequate for the times.

I still fail to see how taxation can advance technology and the economy in any substantial way. Technology is again either out of necessity ond/or profit driven. Although most major advances are made during wars, (which of course we do pay for), do you think Edison relied on taxes? Bell? Gates? Profit is a great motivator. Government grants and support are motivators for lethargy, in any industry. Hey, it's free money right? Let's milk this cow for all she's got.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
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48
Ontario
You have so many topics going at once in your thread you might want to consider breaking them up. Do you want to discuss tax reform, crime and punishment, food additives, or energy costs?

Well, the discussion seems to be centred around taxation (and whether it is good or bad).

I do know this but it is your backward logic that obfuscates the truth. Taxes are the price we pay for the rule of law, a contract if you will, the result of rather than the reason for peaceful society. Taxes in and of themseves do not a just society make.

There is nothing backward about it. Taxes fund services such as police force, defense, education, roads, infrastructure, scientific research etc. These things lead to better standard of living, better quality of life. Hence, taxation is indirectly responsible for higher living standard and a better quality of life. This is not backward logic, this is deductive logic.

Some seem to reason that if we raise taxes good things follow.
Not at all. Reasonable amount of taxation, wise use of the taxpayer's money and good things will follow (and good things have followed).

In addition to the taxes you support for infrastructure, education, the good life, we have a plethora of user fees for services that were once covered by taxation, and taxes haven't gone down. When government becomes the largest single employer, or worse, employing up to half or more of the taxpaying workforce, we have a problem. Governments do not create wealth, they are a consumer of it. It cannot be all things to all people, though too many rely on the nanny state for just that. Many governments have fallen or are in such deep debt that quality of life suffers. Just take a look South to see how big government, even in a free country, is set to implode under its own weight. Raising taxes seems to be the only tool on governments' shelves, because they are loathe to cut the fat in their powerhouse.
What you are talking here is prudent fiscal management. And I quite agree, prudent fiscal management is necessary. But that is apart from taxation.

Do you think medical advances were made because of taxes? They were either made for profit or out of necessity. Why do you think drug companies have 20 year patents? Electricity? I don't know about you, but I pay for mine, it too is a profit driven enterprise.
Have you heard of a little organization called National Institute of Health (NIH)? They have poured billions of dollars into medical research, research that has immeasurably benefited the drug companies.

And not only medical sciences, government sponsors basic research in all the physical sciences, research that companies are unwilling to sponsor (because it doesn't have any immediate, applicable benefits). What drug companies, petrochemical companies etc, do is applied research.

Applied research takes the knowledge gained in basic research and applies it to make a better product or a new product. But without the foundation of basic research, there can be no applied research.

So yes, taxpayers money is indirectly responsible for medical advances (and indeed, many other scientific advances).

Who's to say that 200 years from now our standard of living will appear appalingly low? It is subjective, maybe the standard of living was quite adequate for the times.
It probably will. I am an optimist, I have faith in science and technology to better the living conditions for humankind. Just as you or I wouldn't want to go back to Boston Tea Party days, I imagine somebody from 200 years into the future wouldn't want to return to the primitive world of today.

I still fail to see how taxation can advance technology and the economy in any substantial way.
I think I have already explained this in reference to medical research. Taxaton funds basic research, based upon which private companies develop the technology, by doing applied research.

Technology is again either out of necessity ond/or profit driven. Although most major advances are made during wars, (which of course we do pay for), do you think Edison relied on taxes? Bell? Gates? Profit is a great motivator. Government grants and support are motivators for lethargy, in any industry. Hey, it's free money right? Let's milk this cow for all she's got.
Let us consider this. Edison relied on theories of electromagnetism (Maxwell theory etc.) to develop a working model for producing electricity. Without theories of electromagnetism, he would not have been able to develop a thing.

Such basic research is mostly sponsored by the government, not by the industry. Bell relied on theory of sound propagation to develop the telephone; again he relied on basic research. Gates relied on theories of computers, computer languages etc. which were developed in the universities, with government money.

Government grants support basic research at universities, which is the foundation upon which industry bases its applied research and technology development. Take out government from the mix, and industrial progress and innovation will freeze almost completely, without any basic, fundamental research.
 
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Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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Oshawa
Yup, ours just went back up to 15%, and I deal in cash now more than ever, we do adapt.

Freeloader.:roll:

What, so people should stfu and be complacent while the government steals their money? What are these benefits anyways?

No, I never said stfu, I said revolt, move or accept it.

That's not what most do though, they whine and whimper about it.:roll:

Benefits...like health care, cheap drugs, education, roads, police, fire protection, military, transit, parks....etc etc etc.

You didn't think was all free did you?
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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Oshawa
Did anyone notice what the VAT in the UK just went up to in the new budget?

As of Jan next year, 20 percent.

I was there two years ago this month and you never notice the VAT....it's included in the price.

Pub food was still cheap.;-)
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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... I deal in cash now more than ever, we do adapt.

That means the rest of us who do pay our taxes also have to pay yours too. I suggest you suck it up and gratefully pay your taxes like a good Canadian. Or at least tear the "I support our troops" off the car you drive on roads the rest of us paid to build and maintain.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,342
113
Vancouver Island
And you're proud of that!?!

It's bloody sad.

I would be proud of that. I have a friend that is 85 and still goes to work every day. He operates a gravel pit. Still gets in a machine from time to time. I hope I am still capable of working at that age. This is what keeps some of us going.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
11,956
56
48
Ontario
Did anyone notice what the VAT in the UK just went up to in the new budget?

As of Jan next year, 20 percent.

They are trying to cut the budget deficit. The only way to cut the deficit is to increase taxes and reduce spending, there is no other way of doing it. So it makes perfect sense.

I was there two years ago this month and you never notice the VAT....it's included in the price.

Pub food was still cheap.;-)

I think that is the mistake they made in Canada; they kept the GST, PST, HST etc. out in the open, so everybody could see it. Now, that maybe conducive to open government. However, it aggravates the public every time they see how much tax they have to pay.

When it comes to taxation, maybe what people don’t know won’t hurt them. Perhaps it is better to keep it hidden, like VAT is in most European countries.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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The current system is dumb. I just want to know the final price so I can judge if I can afford to buy something with the change in my pocket. I shouldn't have to calculate +13% to figure that out. All sales should only show the final price--- tax rate upon request. Also the less visible, the less bitchin' about it.
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
11,596
141
63
Backwater, Ontario.
The current system is dumb. I just want to know the final price so I can judge if I can afford to buy something with the change in my pocket. I shouldn't have to calculate +13% to figure that out. All sales should only show the final price--- tax rate upon request. Also the less visible, the less bitchin' about it.

Ya, but" You can always take the item up to the cash, have them ring it through, and then say:..............."mehhhhhhhhhhhhhh........NO!..........too much tax." Then leave. Might get awkward when it's like a lawnmower, or a boat, or something, but think of the FUN!!!

You might not want to do this more than twice at the same store, or at all if you live in a small town.

Just sayin :bigsmurf:
 

Bar Sinister

Executive Branch Member
Jan 17, 2010
8,252
19
38
Edmonton
I do know this but it is your backward logic that obfuscates the truth. Taxes are the price we pay for the rule of law, a contract if you will, the result of rather than the reason for peaceful society. Taxes in and of themseves do not a just society make. Some seem to reason that if we raise taxes good things follow. In addition to the taxes you support for infrastructure, education, the good life, we have a plethora of user fees for services that were once covered by taxation, and taxes haven't gone down. When government becomes the largest single employer, or worse, employing up to half or more of the taxpaying workforce, we have a problem. Governments do not create wealth, they are a consumer of it. It cannot be all things to all people, though too many rely on the nanny state for just that. Many governments have fallen or are in such deep debt that quality of life suffers. Just take a look South to see how big government, even in a free country, is set to implode under its own weight. Raising taxes seems to be the only tool on governments' shelves, because they are loathe to cut the fat in their powerhouse.




Do you think medical advances were made because of taxes? They were either made for profit or out of necessity. Why do you think drug companies have 20 year patents? Electricity? I don't know about you, but I pay for mine, it too is a profit driven enterprise. As for witch trials, we still have them, except they are called Human Rights Tribuanls, and paid for by us.



Who's to say that 200 years from now our standard of living will appear appalingly low? It is subjective, maybe the standard of living was quite adequate for the times.

I still fail to see how taxation can advance technology and the economy in any substantial way. Technology is again either out of necessity ond/or profit driven. Although most major advances are made during wars, (which of course we do pay for), do you think Edison relied on taxes? Bell? Gates? Profit is a great motivator. Government grants and support are motivators for lethargy, in any industry. Hey, it's free money right? Let's milk this cow for all she's got.

I can answer a few of your points about how taxes advance society. First of all, most of our basic institutions like schools, hospitals, and recreation facilities are all built with tax money. Second, other basic infrastructure like roads are also built using taxes.

Contrary to your point about governments not creating wealth, the opposite can be true. Take away the infrastructure spending I mentioned above and most societies would be considerably poorer.

As for advances like medicine the answer is yes - many medical advances occur at government medical research facilities. There is pretty strong evidence that large for profit medical companies such as those in the pharmaceutical industry have little interest in medical advances unless they can make a profit. That is why commercial facilities have yet to find a cure for the common cold - there is simply more money in developing drugs that mask cold symptoms, but not cure it.

So far as electricity is concerned, in many countries including parts of Canada electrical companies are publicly owned. It is interesting to note that in Canada the highest prices for electricty occur in provinces that have privately owned companies.

And I am not sure how you got the idea that most major advances are made during wars. That is simply not true and there are thousands of historical examples that prove that idea wrong.

So far as your examples of inventors are concerned, yes - Edison took full advantage of incentives offered to him by government, As did John D. Rockefeller, and a host of 19th and early 20th century industrial giants including Henry Ford.

The point is that any balanced society must have a mix of free enterprise and government enterprise. No modern nation could operate effectively without this mix. The point is to determine what sector of the economy can do something best, rather than turn everything over to one or the other.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
The harder we work, the more tax we are hit with. So then we work harder and get hit with more taxes.
Dalton has now imputed an eco tax on all sprays, all green products that we have been encouraged to buy like light bulbs, Soap, shampoos, medications, cleaners, and more. This is on top of the HST and also took effect July 1.
We now spend how much time working to pay our bills to keep afloat?
.

It's a two edged sword- we demand services. If you are going to fret about criminals getting a free ride in jail, why not fret about criminals getting a free ride in Ottawa and Victoria? While I was on holidays in Alberta I bought some high priced stuff there to avoid H.S.T. You have to live by your wits. If you don't want to pay taxes don't call the cops, don't call the ambulance, don't go to the library, in the winter time shovel the snow off the road to work yourself, don't get any flu shots. Don't forget we still live in the best country in the world for all its corruption.