Terrorism: Made in the U.S.A.

[CDNBear]

Bear, your version is not much more than a watered down agreement of what I said.

It isn't watered down, it's factual, balanced, sans rhetoric, and hyperbole. Which is likely why you think it's watered down.

I said what I did in response to the Disney-esque version of US benevolence some posters seem to have.

That's all well and good and you're free to your way of communicating.

The US rarely does anything that is not to their own benefit.

And you differ from that how? I know I don't. I've given when the mood strikes and look out for me and mine foremost. Like most people.

US foreign policy has created turmoil and suffering the world over.

Yes, but has also eased and or prevented it on almost as many occasions, especially when natural disaster strikes.

And how many countries have US military bases on them? That is occupation by intimidation, so ironside's view is from wearing rose coloured glasses - too close to see the forest for the trees - my country right or wrong (mostly wrong).

I agree, it's a form of occupation, and I agree, sometimes some people have rose coloured glasses on, hence my addressing Irons view. Only I didn't try and take a great big shyte on the States in the process. In some lame manner to make me feel better about my country. I am quite proud of my country, without having to compare it to any other. As some people simply can not do.

I really don't know about Granada, but every other nasty dictator the US has had to remove was one they supported, trained and/or installed.

Not in the case of Grenada. But anyone is free to educate me on that, as like yourself, I'm not fully up to speed on that event.

That is occupation by proxy.

I agree.

In every case, their interference with the internal politics of a nation has resulted in great suffering of its people.

Not in all cases.

It is time that the US withdrew its "support" of every country so as to take a long hard look at why so many people hate them and why there is so much "terrorism" as a result of their interference.

I would otherwise agree, but then you run the risk of even greater problems created by power vacuums and old grudges.

That is not selfish on my part as none of it directly affects me. I am trying to speak for those oppressed by US foreign policy (an Canadian since Harpy has been kissing American butt.)

:roll:...Although I am well aware of the flaws in US foreign policy, I'm not willing to use hyperbole to make a point.

 

[taxslave]

Oh Cliffy - you are indeed a good man but come on - every one of those countries is governed by people who are out for themselves. They aren't stupid, they aren't rubes or country bumpkins. They choose their alliances for whatever reason. Blame the States for offering the carrot? No one is putting the gun to their heads - they choose to do what they do because they want to do it, and from what I see, most chose at the expense of their citizens. You want to blame the States. Sorry - that's grabbing at low hanging fruit. It's way too easy. The world should start putting the blame where it belongs. Corrupt leaders who don't give a damn about their citizens and care more about lining their own pockets.
And here's another thought. All these hard done by countries, the ones who have been 'taken advantage of'? They'd do the same to another less advantaged country in a heartbeat.
I'm not a cynic - I'm a realist.

And you think perhaps junior and slick dick were not in it for themselves and their buddies? Just look at the mess in the Gulf of Mexico. That is a direct result of greed overriding safety. No different than mine collapse caused by inadequate shoring.
If the US was not so desperate for oil they would not worry about a few semi literate tribes in the middle east kill each other off.

 

[AnnaG]

And what do you think causes people to blow themselves up? Their lives have been so marginalized, so demeaned that they feel the only response they have is to kill and be killed. US Foreign Policy is to blame for creating terrorist in third world countries by terrorizing them in the name of freedom and democracy (read: theft of their resources). The price of freedom in the US comes on the subjugation and domination of third world countries and their people.

Sorry, Cliffy, the low self-esteem thing apparently is only true of the regular suicide victim, not the self-immolating bombers.

http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/suicide_bombers/

Suicide Terrorism | Psychology Today

If those poor, down-trodden Taliban are the product of the USA, where did they get the idea that demeaning, terrorising, mutilating, and killing women and kids was an ok idea? Where did they learn stuff like the following? Was it really the USA that taught them this stuff? How many American troops do things like this on a regular basis?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wor...ng_a_spy_suicide_bomber_kills_40_at_afgh.html

http://sweetness-light.com/archive/afghan-school-girls-attacked-with-acid

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37589087/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

Where exactly have we expanded to making creating a new U.S. territory, protectorate or what ever you want to call it lately? Where are we expanding to? Except for putting out a few fires and leaving, no where. The U.S. has nothing to apologize for, we just do things that must be done that others don't care to do or are afraid to do. Your kind are everywhere, little voices saying don't do this, don't do that. People who just want to live their own little isolated lives not offering serious help to anyone. When we leave a country, we usually leave it in much better condition than when we arrived. Two countries you happened to mention are case in point. Panama and Granada. Both were being lead by dictator who headed death squads and or were drug lords we went in and set thing right. No they didn't invite us to invade them, dumb statement, but we did not permently occupy any of them.

It isn't on a military basis that the USA seems to want to conquer the planet, Ironsides. It's on the basis of mercantilism, commercialism, and that sort of thing.

 

[L Gilbert]

USA invented by the USA? I hardly think so. It's been around a lot longer than the USA has been a country.
Sicarii:
Meridian Magazine : Who were the Sicarii?
Ninja:
Ninja - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thuggee:
Thuggee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
etc.

 

[Bar Sinister]

And what do you think causes people to blow themselves up? Their lives have been so marginalized, so demeaned that they feel the only response they have is to kill and be killed. US Foreign Policy is to blame for creating terrorist in third world countries by terrorizing them in the name of freedom and democracy (read: theft of their resources). The price of freedom in the US comes on the subjugation and domination of third world countries and their people.

I didn't think I would actually have to point out any non-US inspired terrorist groups, but here are a few:

The Muslim Chechnyan freedom groups who aim all of their attacks at Russia.
Sikh and Muslim terrorist groups who aim all of their attacks at India. These include the clowns who blew up the Air India plane carrying over 300 Canadians
Various separatist groups around the world including the Tamils in Sri Lanka and the FLQ in Quebec, as well as those in China and Indonesia.
Tribal based separatism in many parts of Africa.
The Basque separatists in Spain.
Breton separatists in France.
The IRA.

I am sure I could find more examples, but these few should make my point.

 

[Cliffy]

As my pappy used to say, "You made your point, now sit on it." Just kidding (but he did say that to me a lot.)

Yes, you are right. I concede. I really should have said the ruling elite without borders of which the Us is but the enforcement arm, but I didn't think most people besides DB and a few others would have got it. Also, the news generally likes to shine on a light on American activities with only rare mention of other countries unless it affects us directly. And then again I rarely listen to or read the news as most of it is pure BS. I like to get my news on this forum. I am kinda perverse like that.

 

[captain morgan]

And then again I rarely listen to or read the news as most of it is pure BS. I like to get my news on this forum. I am kinda perverse like that.

You're dead right on this Cliffy.. There is a big difference between media and journalism and generally speaking, one follows the dollar and the other states (kinda) facts.

In terms of what you've mentioned about (American) foreign policy - no doubt, they have a lot to answer for; however, all nations that poke their nose into others' business hold that very same responsibility.

I will say this for the Americans, whenever there is help required, they are among the first and expend near the most....

 

[ironsides]

Nobody is willing to do or change anything as usual. As long as we have two governments we will never have that perfect world. Do I hear any other country will to step in and fill the void if the U.S. decided not to help anyone and just watch.

 

[Cliffy]

Nobody is willing to do or change anything as usual. As long as we have two governments we will never have that perfect world. Do I hear any other country will to step in and fill the void if the U.S. decided not to help anyone and just watch.

I was not talking about helping anyone. Could you explain to me how the US has helped the Iraqi people? Or the Afghan people? Or how the people who suffered under innumerable oppressive dictatorships supported or installed by the CIA for the benefit of US corporations has benefited any of its citizens? Yes the US helps out in the case of natural disasters, but does it come close to balancing out the harm it has caused with its foreign policies?

 

[CDNBear]

I was not talking about helping anyone. Could you explain to me how the US has helped the Iraqi people? Or the Afghan people? Or how the people who suffered under innumerable oppressive dictatorships supported or installed by the CIA for the benefit of US corporations has benefited any of its citizens? Yes the US helps out in the case of natural disasters, but does it come close to balancing out the harm it has caused with its foreign policies?

Yes.

Though US foreign policy is oft based on protecting or advancing US interests. That is completely understandable. Like I asked you earlier, do you live your life for you and yours? Or do you live your life for everyone in the world?

Though US foreign policy can be examined myopically, that is simply unbalanced and lazy. There are always two sides to a conflict. Do you place equal blame upon the Soviet Union for feeding the cold war hysteria? Do you recognize the violence and atrocities committed by those that opposed US expansionism, for their own brutal expansionist ideologies?

All throughout the Cold War, there were truly two sides to the covert conflict, both equally in the wrong. Both using propaganda and violence to forward their mission of global control. The US won. Thus proving, history is not always written by the victor.

Quite frankly I find that US foreign policy has been flawed for decades. But without it, the entire standard of living in North America would have been stunted. Now, you can simply fall off the grid, walk, ride a bike or take a horse anywhere you need to go. But like most, I assume you enjoy your creature comforts. Comforts of which you simply enjoy, while condemning one of the parties to the actions that facilitated those comforts.

There is no doubt that in the long run up to the level of comfort we have here in North America, many bad acts have occured, and my commentary in no way is meant to dismiss, diminish or downplay that fact. It is however a look at the hypocrisy surrounding the blanket, unbalanced and uneducated view of "America Bad".

For if one were to equally view history without blinders and predetermined notions. One would find that there are no innocents. Canda itself is an equal participatory partner in illicit acts, from war crimes to exploitation in search of resources to support a growing economy and populace.

If you fail to acknowledge that, and simply wish to pin all the worlds woes on one entity, it's dishonest and you do yourself and the world a great disservice. For it is tantamount to ignoring history, which leaves you bound to repeat it.

 

[AnnaG]

USA invented by the USA? I hardly think so. It's been around a lot longer than the USA has been a country.
Sicarii:
Meridian Magazine : Who were the Sicarii?
Ninja:
Ninja - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Thuggee:
Thuggee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
etc.

lol I think you meant "Terrorism invented by the USA?"

I was not talking about helping anyone. Could you explain to me how the US has helped the Iraqi people? Or the Afghan people?

How would you like to be female under the Taliban in Afghanistan? Mention schooling and you are dead (which may quite well be better than living a miserable life enslaved to brutal and oppressive men). If anything Americans and others being in Afghanistan have kept the focus of the Taliban rather than the civilians for the most part.

 

[EagleSmack]

How would you like to be female under the Taliban in Afghanistan? Mention schooling and you are dead (which may quite well be better than living a miserable life enslaved to brutal and oppressive men). If anything Americans and others being in Afghanistan have kept the focus of the Taliban rather than the civilians for the most part.

I think the women are expendable in the opinion of many as long as the mission over there fails.

 

[ironsides]

I was not talking about helping anyone. Could you explain to me how the US has helped the Iraqi people? Or the Afghan people? Or how the people who suffered under innumerable oppressive dictatorships supported or installed by the CIA for the benefit of US corporations has benefited any of its citizens? Yes the US helps out in the case of natural disasters, but does it come close to balancing out the harm it has caused with its foreign policies?

Cliffy, You still do not understand. We did not go into Afghanistan with the intention of helping the people, we went in to annihilate certain groups. The same reason for getting involved in Iraq. Initially other than getting rid of Saddam, we did want to help the Kurds. Mistakes were made and we got stuck in those countries. With Afghanistan we should have stayed till it was finished and not have gotten involved in Iraq. As for Iraq, we should have just supported a Kurdish homeland in the north and protected the Shias in the south. while enforcing UNSCR 688 rules in place (no fly zones etc.)

 

[CDNBear]

Cliffy, You still do not understand. We did not go into Afghanistan with the intention of helping the people, we went in to annihilate certain groups. The same reason for getting involved in Iraq. Initially other than getting rid of Saddam, we did want to help the Kurds. Mistakes were made and we got stuck in those countries. With Afghanistan we should have stayed till it was finished and not have gotten involved in Iraq. As for Iraq, we should have just supported a Kurdish homeland in the north and protected the Shias in the south. while enforcing UNSCR 688 rules in place (no fly zones etc.)

That sounds reasonable.

 

[taxslave]

On one of the radio stations I was listening to yesterday they said that A-stan is chock full of minerals that the multis would dearly like to have. This goes a long way to explain US military involvement there. It is not about democracy, it is about high profits for US mining companies.

 

[Cliffy]

That sounds reasonable.

It does sound reasonable and it would be if only it were true.

On one of the radio stations I was listening to yesterday they said that A-stan is chock full of minerals that the multis would dearly like to have. This goes a long way to explain US military involvement there. It is not about democracy, it is about high profits for US mining companies.

This is probably closer to the truth. As I have said before, there is no altruistic reason for being in either country. That is just a bunch of propaganda to justify the rape of their resources. A million men, women and children have died or been made refugees to get a handful of men. This is not sane or reasonable unless corporate profit is the true motivating factor.

 

[Cliffy]

Now, even god is POed.

6-story Jesus statue in Ohio struck by lightning
http://www.headlinecontent.com/NewsArticle.aspx?catId=2&articleId=2350506

 

[petros]

On one of the radio stations I was listening to yesterday they said that A-stan is chock full of minerals that the multis would dearly like to have. This goes a long way to explain US military involvement there. It is not about democracy, it is about high profits for US mining companies.

I know a guy who said that 8 years ago but....

 

[CDNBear]

It does sound reasonable and it would be if only it were true.

What part of his opinion that they shouldn't have gone into Iraq and simply stood by UN resolution wasn't true?

Or for the sake of bolstering your opinion, did you miss that part and go right to his opinions on why they went into Iraq and Afghanistan?

If so, how is his opinion wrong? I just had to justify my opinion in another thread, after being wrongly accused of simply dismissing your erroneous accusations. Now here you are actually dismissing, someones opinions.

Wow, double standards abound!

 

[AnnaG]

I think the women are expendable in the opinion of many as long as the mission over there fails.

.... and kids.

Cliffy, You still do not understand. We did not go into Afghanistan with the intention of helping the people, we went in to annihilate certain groups. The same reason for getting involved in Iraq. Initially other than getting rid of Saddam, we did want to help the Kurds. Mistakes were made and we got stuck in those countries. With Afghanistan we should have stayed till it was finished and not have gotten involved in Iraq. As for Iraq, we should have just supported a Kurdish homeland in the north and protected the Shias in the south. while enforcing UNSCR 688 rules in place (no fly zones etc.)

Pretty much.
It's slightly different with Canada, though. Different societal aims and all that.

On one of the radio stations I was listening to yesterday they said that A-stan is chock full of minerals that the multis would dearly like to have. This goes a long way to explain US military involvement there. It is not about democracy, it is about high profits for US mining companies.

.... and Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, Australia, Denmark, Sweden, UAE,, Mongolia, etc.?