Israel 'attacks' Gaza aid fleet

[Ron in Regina]

db.....please scroll up & read post #1206. Four posts up from your last post.

 

[darkbeaver]

Jewish Operas Vol 1 or 2? The new deals are weapons deals that are field proven in Palestine and sold in Las Vegas and Florida.

Don't worry Beave. We'll all be on the same footing whether Christian Muzzie Heeb Hindu Buddhist or other and it won't be a good place to be standing.

Ain't that the truth, I am pissed beyond ignition that I will be spending eternity as DUed dust particles with heartless pricks who murdered for god or money or just because it made them feel special. And I suppose we'll all be covered with oil and dead pelicans. There will be some interesting fossils some day.

Israel Navy Reserves Officers Call for External Gaza Flotilla Investigation Officers denounce operation as 'military and diplomatic failure', slam government for placing blame on the activists.
- by Anshel Pfeffer - 2010-06-08

 

[sombraa110]

The fleets were told that they had to stop because israeli forces had to do a check to make sure there were no weapons/artillery carried into their country, they had permission to pass through but they didnt listen to the warning they gave them.

 

[darkbeaver]

db.....please scroll up & read post #1206. Four posts up from your last post.

Sorry Ron I missed that? Should I retract my humourous speel? I am loath to do it you know, it is quite good I think. But you know me, ever in the interest of diplomacy, first and foremost, as I always say.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Carry on, go forward from here, but keep it in mind.

 

[darkbeaver]

Carry on, go forward from here, but keep it in mind.

Roger R&R, over

 

[Extrafire]

[...]The dismemberment of Israel will be justice served and served well. And that my stinky fellow is the democratic will of the world that I am sure will be exercised before the planet is asked to suffer additional decades of Israeli arrogance and murder.

Got the ovens warming up?

I hope you get a bumper crop, lol.

I wish I had the perfect answer.

The only answer I have is, one I have suggested before. Israel drop the blockade. Allow free passage to any and all goods, services and travel, in and out of Gaza, to anyone.

Israel must withdraw all, but a reasonable contingent of security personnel from the Gaza and the West Bank boundaries, and must not interfere with crossing of the boarder at all what so ever.

Israel should recognize Palestine as a state and begin a formal dialogue for a lasting peace and trade arrangement.

If rocket attacks continue, Israel should use extreme restraint and commonsense if she so chooses to retaliate. And fully recognize the very real fact that militant groups, beyond the control of Hamas, may very well be the peprtrators, and that they are very likely not going to be the victims of Israel's retaliatory strikes.

If Israel does become the victim of rocket attacks, suicide bombings. I would fully support a UN Peace Keeping mission, consisting of Canadian Forces personnel. Ensuring the safety of Israel and Palestine, by assisting in full investigations of attacks.

Ya know, I think there's quite a bit of naivity here. Israel has tried all these things in the past. When they tried it with Egypt they got peace with Egypt. But any time they tried it with the Palestinians all they got was more attacks. What would make you think there would be any different result if they tried that again?

If Israel was meant to survive, why would it be located among neighbours known to be easily irritated? Britain had long experienced Arab discontent with strangers - often at the point of a scimitar. Were displaced European Jews put there to be a nation - or to complete a job that Hitler didn't without getting one's own hands dirty? Either way, Israel survived - but the resent has never died. Nothing can be done about it now. It's like any invasive species. It has made itself native. I think outside influences should stop meddling and allow Israel and everyone else to sort out their own differences.

After the centuries long occupation of the ME by the Ottoman Empire, the Brits, after WWI, were left administering a large area with diverse peoples whose countries of origin weren't much more than vague histories. One of those peoples was the Jews who had their country destroyed by the Romans. They asked the Brits for their own country again, and the Brits promised them they would get it, but they kept stalling until after the WWII when the new UN got involved, even though they had given other peoples their own countries (Jordan). Israel is located where it is because that's where their (much larger) country had been located in the past, and because there was a very large population of them already living there. The Jews of the diaspora used to have a toast, "Next year in Jerusalem" that refered the dream of returning to a rebuilt nation of Israel, and that's why the displaced European Jews travelled to the ME to assist in re-establishing their ancient homeland after the horrors of the holocaust, but most of the Jews in the new nation were already there.

Exactly. A person with a full stomach who is healthy, educated, has an income and feels safe is usually the last person to take up arms and fight over religion.

They aren't fighting over religion. Hamas et al hate the Jewish race.

You're also incorrect about a person with a full stomach who is healthy, educated, has an income and feels safe usually being the last person to take up arms and fight over religion. Osama bin Laden had all that and more. Most of the leadership of religious terrorists as well as suicide bombers fit that description.

 

[Spade]

It is not uncommon for children who experience abuse to grow up to be abusers.
The Jews were abused.
Remembering That We Were Strangers – Pesach March 2010 | Brighton and Hove Progressive Synagogue

 

[Extrafire]

The L.A. City Council wants to boycott the Grand Canyon State. When will the United Nations condemn Los Angeles for its callous pursuit of collective punishment against Arizona in retaliation for its immigration policies? To be sure, the boycott is mainly symbolic, but at least in principle the measure is aimed at hurting all Arizonans regardless of whether they support the "regime" in Phoenix. That's collective punishment.

Also, why isn't the world outraged by the wholesale deprivation we're inflicting on the North Koreans? Why do we even bother talking about sanctions against Iran, which will surely hurt the average Iranian more than the mullahs and the kleptocrats running the Revolutionary Guard. We've been maintaining an embargo against Cuba for half a century. In the lead-up to the Iraq war, the supposed voices of peace and sanity argued for "giving the sanctions time to work" and "keeping Iraq in the box" — the "box" being a stiff sanctions regime. What was so great about the sanctions against South Africa if they too were a form of collective punishment?

Only one blockade is deemed indefensibly beyond the pale: Israel's blockade of Gaza. Why? Because it imposes "collective punishment." The U.N. Human Rights Council, which rarely finds time to condemn the barbaric practices of its own members, routinely denounces the blockade as a crime against humanity.

More at the link

Israel's Gaza blockade: It works -- latimes.com

 

[ironsides]

false. they aren't bias , especially in comparison to your pro-israeli sources you israel advocates post.

Nothing bias or Jewish leaning in what I post. By the way, did you heard this one?


Sadie tells Clatch, "You’re a shmuck! You always were a shmuck and you always will be a shmuck! You look, act and dress like a shmuck! You’ll be a shmuck until the day you die! And if they ran a world-wide competition for shmucks, you would be the world’s second biggest shmuck!"
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Why only second place?" Clatch asks.
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]"Because you’re a shmuck!" Sadie screams.[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[MHz]

After the centuries long occupation of the ME by the Ottoman Empire, the Brits, after WWI, were left administering a large area with diverse peoples whose countries of origin weren't much more than vague histories.

Sort of making them something called 'the inhabitants in a land called Palestine', that makes them citizens. If nobody can remember wher they came from how can the be deported if you don;t know where to deport them to? Jews didn't like being moved about, it doesn't suddenly become alright just because the shoe is on the other foot.

One of those peoples was the Jews who had their country destroyed by the Romans.

Actually Israel was taken apart by God using Neb 500 years before the Romans even came on the scene. God meant that Temple and the return as a temporary thing as in Daniel 9. The Jews were only given the city and the Temple. Christian Jews exiled themselves from their to avoid persecution and death at the hands of the Jews.

They asked the Brits for their own country again, and the Brits promised them they would get it, but they kept stalling until after the WWII when the new UN got involved, even though they had given other peoples their own countries (Jordan).

The Rothschild family was the one doing the asking. Normal Jews didn't know anything about it until about 1920. The Balfour Declaration is like a leaked e-mails today. It wasn't making headlines when it was first written.

Israel is located where it is because that's where their (much larger) country had been located in the past, and because there was a very large population of them already living there.

The much larger area in the OT was the size the Rothschild people wanted in their first request. Just happens to be the same size as Israel, Gaza., and the West Bank cover today.

The Jews of the diaspora used to have a toast, "Next year in Jerusalem" that refered the dream of returning to a rebuilt nation of Israel, and that's why the displaced European Jews travelled to the ME to assist in re-establishing their ancient homeland after the horrors of the holocaust, but most of the Jews in the new nation were already there.

Did you get what you just wrote, they were expecting to return to a city and a Temple that the Messiah had built with His own hands. Go talk to some Rabbis that still believe that. Please supply some hard data for the claim of who was there before the blockade was run by a ship called the Exodus. Nothing but a photo op using a name like that, the ones on board were true refugees, not unlike the first refugees sent to the Colonies when North America was first getting Europeans. A few rich ones and a whole lot of very poor ones.
The Jewish Virtual Library has a chart for population numbers, some of what you wrote goes against what their records show.

They aren't fighting over religion. Hamas et al hate the Jewish race.

Jews and Muslims lived together quite nicely until the push for possession of the Holy Land got the financial backing it needed to start making the moves that would result in 'the plan' being executed successfully.
Hamas or the Palestinians did not start the conflict, Hamas was born because the old leadership was corrupt and ineffective in getting a 20 year old Martial Law imposed by Israel in a war where they fired first. Feel free to dispute ideas being promoted as the facts in this vid.

Occupation_101.avi

You're also incorrect about a person with a full stomach who is healthy, educated, has an income and feels safe usually being the last person to take up arms and fight over religion.

Nobody is promoting that, that is a survival issue. It is a partial solution that stops the crimes associated with good and gadgets. The G8 countries are considered to be the 'most civilized' and we have a whole lot more than just enough food. Take away just sports and murder rates would rise because we use that as an activity to relieve stress, participant or viewer, both are doing it for the same thing.
Bali before 'we' came along has a peaceful society and no thieves until 'civilization' found them. At some point in their past a lot of people did a lot of work building all the terraces to the benefit to the later generation who suddenly had some spare time on their hands. They migrated to various forms of 'art' and that is where they had stayed until 'we' came along. The fields are their their culkture and way of life is dead and it will never be reborn.

Osama bin Laden had all that and more.

You are aware where he got his money from right? His lifestyle was that of an American elite. It was an American cause he was supporting when he got involved with Afghanistan and the 'rebels' that the CIA had been financing even before the USSR moved troops in. So why did America give him a gun instead of something a little more useful to the area?

Most of the leadership of religious terrorists as well as suicide bombers fit that description.

Link please.

The opposite would point to keep a people under occupation long enough they will start to push back. It took them 20 years after occupation to elect a group that said they would do something to end the occupation. You might not like the Baghdad sniper but according to the rules of war he is fighting a clean fight because he only targets military personnel. The US and Israel regularly take out large numbers of civilians and they are still the 'good guys' in every fight. Life doesn't work that way.

When has Hamas attacked Canada that we can put them on a watch list? Signing a cease-fire should have gotten her off any lists. Only Israel gets to label groups for life. That is not a democracy, taking them to court is a very civilized thing to do, the only one they will listen to is the ICC. Israel lost a case in their own courts, supposed to move the wall some, 5 years later nothing has been moved, that is how much respect she has for her own courts. It's a front, it either cannot or simply will not enforce it's own rulings if it benefits the local Arabs.

The resistance Hames did in the very beginning was because the US and Israel were the ones that made sure she was never recognized as the legal Government. You cannot be elected and a terrorist. An elected Gov has the right and the duty to resist armed occupation. After one attack the whole thing could have been turned over to the ICC for resolution. That is the last thing Israel and the US want sto happen. That is how Hamas can fight Israel and win in a place where the Courts decision is going to be backed up by UN body. If the US resisted that she would be targeted also, take her money and that fight is over, the military hardware and personnel would be for sale to the highest bidder.

 

[CDNBear]

lol you advocate the killing of unarmed humanitarians because your whacko backwards brain somehow thinks it's legal.

Not at all. Please reread what has been presented. If that is to difficult for you to grasp, please move on to a thread more your speed and akin to you level of debate. Something in jokes and fun would be my suggestion.

Now, if you're going to call someone a "stupid bitch" in the rep area, why not grow a pair and add your name to it.

give me links that provides facts that the people were preparing for battle.

Already posted by eao. Go back and educate yourself.

i've heard that some of the people on the flotilla brought their children on board, hardly seems like they'd be preparing for battle in that case.

Hence why I said "some". again, try reading what is actually written.

not to mention there are Canadian activists that are saying things contrary to you.

And there are Arab activists, saying things contrary to you. Your point?

you typed all that when all you could have did was retype the question. i'm not scrolling through the garbage to find it.

It was only a few posts back. Of course you won't scroll back and answer it. You haven't the guts nor the fortitude to answer truly hard questions. Try looking at post #1154.

turkey is calling for israel's head

Turkey is aptly named.

That is why no compensation or apology will be asked for (by Turkey). The dead welcomed the chance to show the IDF some of what they would be like if they were terrorists. All the ones beaten IDF lived to see the next sunrise, a real terrorist would have taken their lives.

Which is why I haven't called them terrorists.

I do support that it was legal under blockade conditions. That doesn't cover the issues this link explores.
What legitimacy does Israel have? > Palestine > Redress Information & Analysis

I would ask if you've actually read that, but that wouldn't matter, it's full of inaccurate history that you have posted time and time again, so I would imagine you think it's without flaw.

The boats crew were the ones taking on the commandos, passengers are not the same as crew, they are under no obligation to fight for the ship.

But they did.

I'm quite convinced they were looking forward to a confrontation based more on being branded terrorists than protecting the ship from pirates.

You're somewhat right.

The citizens or the Military? The military has said it would accompany the next batch of boats that have a Turkish vessel along. There are rules to follow and this time they will be followed

The Turkey better get up to speed on the Oslo Accords..

self-defence

...

distorting the truth of what really happened.

Quite.

Israel broke her agreement with the UN that voided her Nation status the day after it was given.

To quote clutch "distorting the truth of what really happened". Again mhz, dishonesty hals the peace process.

you mean in turkey the military aren't mindless drones who follow the governments every word like in the usa and canada?

Ya, that's why they've had so many bloody military coups. Give your head a shake.

Were there ever any request to inspect their papers for both cargo, passengers, and crew?

Yes, lol.

They have the right to inspect and then release, everybody and everything not banned (by the UN) should have been on the boat and then they could head for their original destination Gaza.

Apparently you need to brush up on the Oslo Accords as well.

That is the offer the ships were turning down. They were only given the choice of unloading and then everybody was arrested and deported.

Because they assaulted a lawful boarding party.

In those 3 or 4 step not everything is according to the 'rules that define the boarding as legal', 1 right and 3 wrongs makes the whole thing wrong and changes need to be made.

:lol: Even after you concede, your ideology is so strong, you just can't get the facts to sink into your head, that's funny.

false. thousands of civilians have been killed by Israeli's. definitely some of been directly targeted., no doubt about it.​

I'll actually agree that some civilians have been targeted by some Israeli Forces. But it isn't part of their policy, nor their rules of engagement.

israeli soldiers have raped women and children.

Again, I agree. This is an abhorrent anomaly that does happen from time to time in any military group.

there are Israeli soldiers who want to destroy every Arab, than there are some who only wish for a peaceful resolution. The same can be said with Hamas. Some Hamas members would love all jews exterminated, some are actually tolerant.

I don't think you actually believe, half of what you just said.

you'd probably have some racist feelings towards people if they occupied your land than oppressed you .

Europeans are occupying my land, yet I don't hold any ill will towards you or them in general. I certainly will not be targting innocent civilians if ever my people rise up and have to fight a large scale conflict.
​

you completely failed, so good idea to stop.

Quite, take so of your own advice.

none of it is lies , and all can be confirmed with simple research.

Then please provide some.

if you aren't going to add anything substantial don't post at all.

Quite, again, take some of your own advice.

hahahahaha, what a moron. doesn't think Israel kills civilians. just the sheer amount of Palestinians that have been slaughtered by Israelis shows clear evidence of targeting.

Actually, if you were at all well read on military operations, you would know that your statement is completely ignorant.

no it won't moron. israel has a infamous history of covering up crimes committed by their military.

Although I agree, would you agree that Hamas does too?

here are some good sources

Those are Op/Ed pieces, not facts.

this **** is disturbing as hell.

Almost as disturbing as what you consider a source.

"Our message to the Israelis is this: We do not fight you because you belong to a certain faith or culture. Jews have lived in the Muslim world for 13 centuries in peace and harmony; they are in our religion "the
people of the book" who have a covenant from God and his messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him), to be respected and protected." "Our conflict with you is not religious but political. We have no problem with Jews who have not attacked us — our problem is with those who came to our land, imposed themselves on us by force, destroyed our society and banished our people."

I've actually read that interview as well as several others, and watched several interviews with the same characters.

1, They're not consistent.
2, They always gloss over the fact that there charter actually uses a quote from the Quran, regarding the annihilation of the Jews. Article 7.
3, There propaganda machine targets "Jews" almost exclusively.

Reality, as dictated by real research and fact, dictates your position is crumbling.

Except they are not seizing only banned items.

Again, they have ON OCCASIONS banned none essential items, that they shouldn't have. Please note the words, ON OCCASION. It is not a standard item that they have a permanent ban on.

They're not allowing things like chocolate it and who knows what other harmless foods. They're stealing these and using it for themselves.

:roll:
​

You're just lying because it benefits you in the argument.

Truer words could not be uttered about your unsubstantiated, unsupported, nonfactual posts.

I definitely can see you making anti-Muslim remarks if they ever invaded your territory.

Ya think?

false. they aren't bias , especially in comparison to your pro-israeli sources you israel advocates post.

Rueters in not pro Israeli. HRW is not pro Israeli. The UN is not pro Israeli.

The part you are missing is there should not have been any war, then or in 1948.

Agreed. If only the Arabs didn't start one.

Every Palestinian chased off the land from Nov-May was denied the right to return by Israel.

Agreed, how many in that 700,000 are still alive? I'm sure Israel can find them some comfy spot to live.

It would seem that Israel has lied to the whole UN when she signed on to be recognized as a Nation. Without the exiles and the declaration there would have been no war.

Dishonesty halts the peace process.

The 33 nations that voted yes were voting for equal right for all Palestinians, Jew and Arab, 700,000 were in exile within 6 months, the UN had no right to recognize them at that point.

BS, 700,000 were scared off by the Arab warmongering threats and warnings for them to run, lol. Your BS mangled history only exposes your real problems.

Has the US or Israel complemented Egypt in what moves she has made to relieve stress in the area.

Has anyone complemented Israel for doing the same thing?

Probably process the goods any times faster than Israel does today.

Pure conjecture.

Ya know, I think there's quite a bit of naivity here. Israel has tried all these things in the past. When they tried it with Egypt they got peace with Egypt. But any time they tried it with the Palestinians all they got was more attacks. What would make you think there would be any different result if they tried that again?

My point exactly EF.

If Israel were to allow a large contingent set up along the border, while they pull back, and allow complete freedom of movement and commerce.

Then the world will see who the real aggressors are.

Following me?

You're also incorrect about a person with a full stomach who is healthy, educated, has an income and feels safe usually being the last person to take up arms and fight over religion. Osama bin Laden had all that and more. Most of the leadership of religious terrorists as well as suicide bombers fit that description.

I think petros was talking about recruiting.

 

[darkbeaver]

 

[MHz]

But they did.

It would be interesting to see who did what. The Mavi Marmara had a crew and volunteers for this journey. The older crew would have been there before there was any moves made to run an Israeli blockade, the new ones to 'sign on' were more than 'paying passengers'. Did the Captain's 15 year old son have a right to be on that ship? I doubt the Captain was wanting to martyr him for 'the cause', we protect our kids from the effects of war by not letting them join till a certain age. During the Wild West kids as young as 8 would know know to use deadly force.

You're somewhat right.

Ever have any 'strangers' join any picket lines when Treaty issues were making the front pages?

The Turkey better get up to speed on the Oslo Accords..

If they are using the document below to justify the right to board they have to be willing to accept all the conditions in that document. I'm not sure how loose the language is but it seems fairly narrow. Stopped is the same as 'at anchor' it does not include any departure to another port or being 'towed' as it was told to cut power rather than being 'naturally disabled'. At that point the Captain makes a vocal declaration that the ship is not salvage before accepting a 'tow'. That is all the rafting rules I have ever read.

Declaration concerning the Laws of Naval War, 208 Consol. T.S. 338 (1909).
Art. 44. A vessel which has been stopped on the ground that she is carrying contraband, and which is not liable to condemnation on account of the proportion of contraband on board, may, when the circumstances permit, be allowed to continue her voyage if the master is willing to hand over the contraband to the belligerent warship. The delivery of the contraband must be entered by the captor on the logbook of the vessel stopped, and the master must give the captor duly certified copies of all relevant papers.

To quote clutch "distorting the truth of what really happened". Again mhz, dishonesty hals the peace process.

(in part)
Commentary (by JB):

Note carefully the preamble to this resolution. Israel's admission to the UN was conditional on her implementing UN General Assembly Resolution 194, passed on 11 December 1948, which explicitly mentions the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes, a right which Israel has, for more than 50 years, refused to implement.


Event #553 UN General Assembly conditionally admits Israel as UN member
Date: Wednesday, 11 May 1949

UNGA Resolution 273 conditionally admits Israel as 59th member of UN.

The UNGA noting that Israel "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations and Recalling its resolutions of November 29, 1947 and December 11, 1948 and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel before the Ad Hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of said resolutions ... decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations".​

http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/art.php?aid=1590

General Assembly Resolution 273

11 May 1949

General Assembly Resolution 273 welcomed the State of Israel as a full member of the United Nations. The resolution states: “Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter [of the United Nations].” Resolution 273 signified Israel’s acceptance into the community of nations.

Yes, lol.

Nobody has been showing anything like that, there was a request to turn around of head for port and unload. When the Captain said Gaza was their destination the search should have taken place at sea. These materials would hace been exempt.

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994
150. Goods not on the belligerent's contraband list are 'free goods', that is, not subject to capture. As a minimum, 'free goods' shall include the following:
(a) religious objects;
(b) articles intended exclusively for the treatment of the wounded and sick and for the prevention of disease;
(c) clothing, bedding, essential foodstuffs, and means of shelter for the civilian population in general, and women and children in particular, provided there is not serious reason to believe that such goods will be diverted to other purpose, or that a definite military advantage would accrue to the enemy by their substitution for enemy goods that would thereby become available for military purposes;
(d) items destined for prisoners of war, including individual parcels and collective relief shipments containing food, clothing, educational, cultural, and recreational articles;
(e) goods otherwise specifically exempted from capture by international treaty or by special arrangement between belligerents; and
(f) other goods not susceptible for use in armed conflict,

But they did.

It would be interesting to see who did what. The Mavi Marmara had a crew and volunteers for this journey. The older crew would have been there before there was any moves made to run an Israeli blockade, the new ones to 'sign on' were more than 'paying passengers'. Did the Captain's 15 year old son have a right to be on that ship? I doubt the Captain was wanting to martyr him for 'the cause', we protect our kids from the effects of war by not letting them join till a certain age. During the Wild West kids as young as 8 would know know to use deadly force.

You're somewhat right.

Ever have any 'strangers' join any picket lines when Treaty issues were making the front pages?

The Turkey better get up to speed on the Oslo Accords..

If they are using the document below to justify the right to board they have to be willing to accept all the conditions in that document. I'm not sure how loose the language is but it seems fairly narrow. Stopped is the same as 'at anchor' it does not include any departure to another port or being 'towed' as it was told to cut power rather than being 'naturally disabled'. At that point the Captain makes a vocal declaration that the ship is not salvage before accepting a 'tow'. That is all the rafting rules I have ever read.

Declaration concerning the Laws of Naval War, 208 Consol. T.S. 338 (1909).
Art. 44. A vessel which has been stopped on the ground that she is carrying contraband, and which is not liable to condemnation on account of the proportion of contraband on board, may, when the circumstances permit, be allowed to continue her voyage if the master is willing to hand over the contraband to the belligerent warship. The delivery of the contraband must be entered by the captor on the logbook of the vessel stopped, and the master must give the captor duly certified copies of all relevant papers.

To quote clutch "distorting the truth of what really happened". Again mhz, dishonesty hals the peace process.

(in part)
Commentary (by JB):

Note carefully the preamble to this resolution. Israel's admission to the UN was conditional on her implementing UN General Assembly Resolution 194, passed on 11 December 1948, which explicitly mentions the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes, a right which Israel has, for more than 50 years, refused to implement.


Event #553 UN General Assembly conditionally admits Israel as UN member
Date: Wednesday, 11 May 1949

UNGA Resolution 273 conditionally admits Israel as 59th member of UN.

The UNGA noting that Israel "unreservedly accepts the obligations of the United Nations Charter and undertakes to honour them from the day when it becomes a Member of the United Nations and Recalling its resolutions of November 29, 1947 and December 11, 1948 and taking note of the declarations and explanations made by the representative of the Government of Israel before the Ad Hoc Political Committee in respect of the implementation of said resolutions ... decides to admit Israel to membership in the United Nations".​

http://cosmos.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/art.php?aid=1590

General Assembly Resolution 273

11 May 1949

General Assembly Resolution 273 welcomed the State of Israel as a full member of the United Nations. The resolution states: “Israel is a peace-loving State and is able and willing to carry out the obligations contained in the Charter [of the United Nations].” Resolution 273 signified Israel’s acceptance into the community of nations.

Yes, lol.

Nobody has been showing anything like that, there was a request to turn around of head for port and unload. When the Captain said Gaza was their destination the search should have taken place at sea. These materials would hace been exempt.

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994
150. Goods not on the belligerent's contraband list are 'free goods', that is, not subject to capture. As a minimum, 'free goods' shall include the following:
(a) religious objects;
(b) articles intended exclusively for the treatment of the wounded and sick and for the prevention of disease;
(c) clothing, bedding, essential foodstuffs, and means of shelter for the civilian population in general, and women and children in particular, provided there is not serious reason to believe that such goods will be diverted to other purpose, or that a definite military advantage would accrue to the enemy by their substitution for enemy goods that would thereby become available for military purposes;
(d) items destined for prisoners of war, including individual parcels and collective relief shipments containing food, clothing, educational, cultural, and recreational articles;
(e) goods otherwise specifically exempted from capture by international treaty or by special arrangement between belligerents; and
(f) other goods not susceptible for use in armed conflict,

Because they assaulted a lawful boarding party.

That only happened on one of the aid ships, the others were not resisting yet they were forced to alter course. That is collective punishment. The articles also say if a ship is found to be hauling contraband that cannot be used as an excuse for future searches. I haven't finished reading them enough to have the specific location for that.

 

[darkbeaver]

Jun 08 16:25 You’re talking bollox, Mr Regev. A short primer on Israeli propaganda for media dummies

A short primer on Israeli propaganda for media dummies*

By Stuart Littlewood
9 June 2010

Stuart Littlewood deconstructs the Israeli propaganda that has been flooding the airwaves following Israel’s murder of humanitarian activists aboard the Gaza-bound international aid flotilla, most notably from the orifice of the Israeli prime minister’s spokesman, Australian-born Mark Regev, and debunks the propaganda manual used by Israeli officials and stooges to hoodwink Westerners.

What were Israel’s excuses for hijacking the Free Gaza ships in international waters and imprisoning their passengers after gunning down nine of them and wounding several more?

• There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and
• Israel already allows sufficient humanitarian aid into Gaza so the flotilla was “an armada of hate and violence", said Israel’s deputy foreign minister.

But according to John Ging, United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) director of operations in Gaza, “It’s a struggle to survive [with] the infrastructure and water and sanitation in a state of collapse and all that goes with that... People are at their wits’ end to understand when all of this will come to an end.”

• If the Free Gaza ships delivered the humanitarian cargo to the Israeli port of Ashdod, Israel would ensure it was delivered to Gaza after checking it for arms.

That’s very unlikely. The report “Failing Gaza: No rebuilding, no recovery, no more excuses” by a group of 16 European non-governmental organizations, published in December 2009, showed that the Israelis allow only a feeble trickle and what is permitted changes from day to day.

• Israel could not allow the ships into Gaza without searching them for arms that might be of use to Hamas.

 

[earth_as_one]

Bump....again....and keep in mind that if this continues, & we have to
close the Thread to keep up, and then run through 40+ pages here....
it might take the Mods (when time permits) a week (or two...) to re-open
the Thread after all posts that include personal attacks against other
members are Remove.

If this happens, any similar Threads created will be Merged with the
Closed Thread, and that just means it'll take longer to run through &
clean it up. This is just a heads up on where this is leading.

If you're involved in this behavior, and that leads to the Thread being
closed, don't bother being upset with anyone but yourself.

Ron in Regina shouldn't have to baby sit this thread. Most people here should know the rules. Please have respect. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are an idiot. If you can't debate in a civil manner, then you have no business on this forum.

I understand that people have strong opinions on this subject, which makes it interesting. If you find yourself about to post something insulting or demeaning, I suggest you take a break and think about your post for a while. Come back when you have something thoughtful or insightful to add...

 

[CDNBear]

It would be interesting to see who did what.

Given the video footage from Al Jazeera's live feeds, the Israelis footage and activist testimony, it seems pretty clear so far, but I still welcome an objective investigation.

The Mavi Marmara had a crew and volunteers for this journey. The older crew would have been there before there was any moves made to run an Israeli blockade, the new ones to 'sign on' were more than 'paying passengers'. Did the Captain's 15 year old son have a right to be on that ship? I doubt the Captain was wanting to martyr him for 'the cause', we protect our kids from the effects of war by not letting them join till a certain age. During the Wild West kids as young as 8 would know know to use deadly force.

That's all conjecture.

Ever have any 'strangers' join any picket lines when Treaty issues were making the front pages?

Nope.

If they are using the document below to justify the right to board they have to be willing to accept all the conditions in that document.

There are multiple sources of law on this matter, it isn't as cut and dry as you would have it.

if the master is willing to hand over the contraband to the belligerent warship.

Clearer words can not be uttered.

(in part)
Commentary (by JB):

That was not the subject of the reply. Nice try though.

Nobody has been showing anything like that, there was a request to turn around of head for port and unload. When the Captain said Gaza was their destination the search should have taken place at sea. These materials would hace been exempt.

Again, there are as has been stated several times now, other treaties at play here. Brush up on all of them, they've all been quoted. You can ignore them all you want, in an attempt to look right. But in the end you do no one, especially yourself, any justice. Again, dishonesty, halts the peace process.

(in part)
Commentary (by JB):

Note carefully the preamble to this resolution. Israel's admission to the UN was conditional on her implementing UN General Assembly Resolution 194, passed on 11 December 1948, which explicitly mentions the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes, a right which Israel has, for more than 50 years, refused to implement.

And that is a sticking point. Israel recognizes only those that fled by the urging and warning of the Arab armies, poised to attack. It does not and should not recognize descendants.

If you apply the right of return to the descendants, can I come claim your house as mine?

I noticed you ignored that question once already?

That only happened on one of the aid ships, the others were not resisting yet they were forced to alter course. That is collective punishment. The articles also say if a ship is found to be hauling contraband that cannot be used as an excuse for future searches. I haven't finished reading them enough to have the specific location for that.

Keep reading, when you're finished there, start reading the other treaties regarding the Gaza and West Bank borders.

Ron in Regina shouldn't have to baby sit this thread.

And no one should be subject to idiocy used to support a bigoted position.

Most people here should know the rules.

Agreed. Most people here should also know when to concede to fact. Yet we see it dismissed without hesitation or support regularly.

Please have respect.

Quite. So please do. Something akin to not sending threatening PM's because you don't like that you get called out for posts that plainly show support for documented terrorist groups, that have proven policies of genocide, and proven links to Nazi ideologies.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are an idiot.

I agree. What makes people idiots, is when they are confronted with absolute fact, and they dismiss it without so much as shred of intelligence. Or they ignore direct questions, because they know if they answer them, they will be forced to face a reality that just undercuts their ideology.

If you can't debate in a civil manner, then you have no business on this forum.

If you can't debate, you have no business on any forum. You aren't here for debate, you're here to preach and be heard. Anyone that doesn't agree with the lies, half truths and BS contained in your cut and paste posts, is an Israeli apologist, a war criminal or supporter of crimes against humanity, or worse, you attack them on issues they can't safely refute without endangering their personal security.

Yet when you get called out for defending neo Nazi regimes, you cry like a child. I suggest you check your double standards at the door.

Come back when you have something thoughtful or insightful to add...

I agree, I look forward to your return, when you have something thoughtful and insightful to add.

 

[MHz]

Given the video footage from Al Jazeera's live feeds, the Israelis footage and activist testimony, it seems pretty clear so far, but I still welcome an objective investigation.

Who was that guy that said he jumped overboard from the Marmara and then gave the Israeli pick-up boat a hard time when they came to pluck him from the water and then he made it onto the Rachael Cory. One attempt to avoid the boat and they would have left him in the water. Let's start with him

That's all conjecture.

This isn't a court of law and some of that was in the form of a question.

Nope.

Really, I'm not sure if that is entirely good news.

There are multiple sources of law on this matter, it isn't as cut and dry as you would have it.

I'm sure there are, however the boarding during a blockade would seem to covered by those two.

Clearer words can not be uttered.

Being ordered to alter course is not something those documents support. If they had swerved toward an Israel boat they could have legally sunk the whole boat, if you follow those documents.

That was not the subject of the reply. Nice try though.

It is relevant, as you say multiple documents come into play when the larger issues are looked.

Again, there are as has been stated several times now, other treaties at play here. Brush up on all of them, they've all been quoted. You can ignore them all you want, in an attempt to look right. But in the end you do no one, especially yourself, any justice. Again, dishonesty, halts the peace process.

For being so lae orientated they sure fight having to be in court to let a panel of Judges decide on the right of the Palestinians. Dictating what they are (with only US support) is what all those documents that everybody signed were designed to prevent.

And that is a sticking point. Israel recognizes only those that fled by the urging and warning of the Arab armies, poised to attack. It does not and should not recognize descendants.

You are forgetting the 600,000 that got chased out between Nov and May.
That means only the Jews who the Romans took captive have the right to return.
They were Roman citizens not Israeli citizens. To reclaim hertiage right it would have to be a person from back when Neb first sacked Israel, 600 BC. It can be taken even further back than that, to the ones the exodus displaced. Little two faced when the expell the residents and then claim they found the land empty. Even I'm not that stupid to try and use that as a legal stance. Palestine will never negotiate without those people being fully included as residents with eternal ownership should the wish it. Just like UN 181 promised and even Israel swore to uphold that when they signed UN273

If you apply the right of return to the descendants, can I come claim your house as mine?

Sure you can, soon as you show me the document that would be the equivalent of UN181 or the Balfour Declaration for Canadian lands. Until then you are on the side of the fence that predated any such stipulations, same as the Jews who 1600 years to move back after the fall of Rome. They should be headed for Italy, the last stronghold of the Roman Empire.

I noticed you ignored that question once already?

Not on purpose. Is it now considered to be answered.

Keep reading, when you're finished there, start reading the other treaties regarding the Gaza and West Bank borders.

As time permits, you should get used to the idea when the Rothschild people say they want a certain area that is what they want. Look up the map they originally
submitted to Britain there is no conspiracy in that. Today's events are still working towards that end.

 

[CDNBear]

Who was that guy that said he jumped overboard from the Marmara and then gave the Israeli pick-up boat a hard time when they came to pluck him from the water and then he made it onto the Rachael Cory. One attempt to avoid the boat and they would have left him in the water. Let's start with him

Sure, go right ahead.

This isn't a court of law and some of that was in the form of a question.

Irrelevant. I don't do make believe. I leave that up to you and eao.

Really, I'm not sure if that is entirely good news.

Not for you and your conspiracy theories, I'm sure.

I'm sure there are, however the boarding during a blockade would seem to covered by those two.

Yep, and that's heavily affected by other treaties.

Being ordered to alter course is not something those documents support. If they had swerved toward an Israel boat they could have legally sunk the whole boat, if you follow those documents.

Your point?

It is relevant, as you say multiple documents come into play when the larger issues are looked.

Not on that part of the topic.

For being so lae orientated they sure fight having to be in court to let a panel of Judges decide on the right of the Palestinians. Dictating what they are (with only US support) is what all those documents that everybody signed were designed to prevent.

That reply bares no weight on the topic of that string.

You are forgetting the 600,000 that got chased out between Nov and May.

Nope, but for sake of an argument, sure, let the survivors of that 600,000, supposedly "chased" off, the right to return. That should bring the total number to what? 500,000.

Sure you can, soon as you show me the document that would be the equivalent of UN181 or the Balfour Declaration for Canadian lands. Until then you are on the side of the fence that predated any such stipulations, same as the Jews who 1600 years to move back after the fall of Rome. They should be headed for Italy, the last stronghold of the Roman Empire.

But you're stating the descendants have the right of return without documentation. Why can't I?

Not on purpose. Is it now considered to be answered.

Erroneously.

 

[darkbeaver]

Extrafire;1288004]

Got the ovens warming up?

Are you accusing me of planning mass murder? post #1206 forbids personal attacks including despicable accusations of support and planning mass murder, therefore you will retract and apologize or I will press the moderators to have you tossed. Unless of course you want to swap bread recipes. You better have recipes.

Ya know, I think there's quite a bit of naivity here. Israel has tried all these things in the past. When they tried it with Egypt they got peace with Egypt. But any time they tried it with the Palestinians all they got was more attacks. What would make you think there would be any different result if they tried that again?

So there forked tongues never tire of repeating but their proven actions negate their lies in totality. They have gotten exactly what they wanted , continued fighting with which they have advanced the genocide of the Palestinians, and the terrorism of millions of other residents of the ME specifically and the rest of earths inhabitants in general, whom they routinely threaten with death and destruction .

After the centuries long occupation of the ME by the Ottoman Empire, the Brits, after WWI, were left administering a large area with diverse peoples whose countries of origin weren't much more than vague histories. One of those peoples was the Jews who had their country destroyed by the Romans. They asked the Brits for their own country again, and the Brits promised them they would get it, but they kept stalling until after the WWII when the new UN got involved, even though they had given other peoples their own countries (Jordan). Israel is located where it is because that's where their (much larger) country had been located in the past, and because there was a very large population of them already living there. The Jews of the diaspora used to have a toast, "Next year in Jerusalem" that refered the dream of returning to a rebuilt nation of Israel, and that's why the displaced European Jews travelled to the ME to assist in re-establishing their ancient homeland after the horrors of the holocaust, but most of the Jews in the new nation were already there.

You obviously don't understand ordinary Colonization.
European Jews never set foot in Israel till very late in the 19th century when they began the systematic displacement of the Sephardim, their own kin, supposedly.

They aren't fighting over religion. Hamas et al hate the Jewish race.

Exactly what race do you think the Jews are?

You're also incorrect about a person with a full stomach who is healthy, educated, has an income and feels safe usually being the last person to take up arms and fight over religion. Osama bin Laden had all that and more. Most of the leadership of religious terrorists as well as suicide bombers fit that description.

Nobody has more religious fanatics than the Israelis and you can't count the kills attributed to them.
Osama bin Laden has been a patsy a scape goat a near total bull**** story Al Quada never existed except as a Mossad/CIA/MI5 terrorist operation.