But Bear, how do you give the UN teeth when it does not even have its own international police force?
What kind of teeth are you referring to?
What kind of teeth are you referring to?
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Israel 'attacks' Gaza aid fleet
- Thread starter petros
- Start date
Israel has the right to block military materials from entering Gaza because it is in a state of war. Since Israel controls what enters and leaves Gaza, they have the same obligations as an occupying power and is responsible for the well being of Gaza's civilian population.
The situation in Gaza is similar to the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands at the end of WW II. The Nazis occupied strategic parts of the Netherlands and controlled Dutch trade. But Dutch cities for the most part were not occupied directly, just like Gaza. In late 1944, Nazi Germany imposed a food embargo against the Dutch in response to a railway strike. When people began to suffer disease, malnutrition and starvation, the Nazis eventually relented and ended the embargo. They allowed neutral countries like Sweden to send in humanitarian aid unimpeded and even allowed allied planes to drop aid from the air. Even the Nazis understood that they could not legally or morally justify blocking food and humanitarian aid. I believe we can all agree the Nazis were merciless and cruel.
I doubt few people here would argue against Israel's right to block military materials from entering Gaza. Arms, weapons and their components easily fit the definition of military materials. Cement, steel and some other building materials could be considered dual purpose and may fit the definition of military materials or components.
However Israel blocks glass, wood, paper, many food items and medicines, and many other items which clearly do not meet the definition of military materials. Food and medicine of any type cannot be legally blocked, even chocolate, prime rib steaks, moisturizing cremes and heartburn medication. Israel cannot legally block educational material like books, paper, pens and pencils. Israel cannot legally block any non-military items from entering Gaza. The fact that Israel blocks non-military material from entering Gaza proves the main intent of Israel's blockade is to collectively punish 1.4 million civilians.
Israel's military blockade is legal. Israel's non-military blockade is illegal and has nothing to do with Israel's right to self defense. Since Israel's illegal non-military blockade collectively punishes 1.4 million civilians, it qualifies as a crime against humanity.
The situation in Gaza is similar to the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands at the end of WW II. The Nazis occupied strategic parts of the Netherlands and controlled Dutch trade. But Dutch cities for the most part were not occupied directly, just like Gaza. In late 1944, Nazi Germany imposed a food embargo against the Dutch in response to a railway strike. When people began to suffer disease, malnutrition and starvation, the Nazis eventually relented and ended the embargo. They allowed neutral countries like Sweden to send in humanitarian aid unimpeded and even allowed allied planes to drop aid from the air. Even the Nazis understood that they could not legally or morally justify blocking food and humanitarian aid. I believe we can all agree the Nazis were merciless and cruel.
I doubt few people here would argue against Israel's right to block military materials from entering Gaza. Arms, weapons and their components easily fit the definition of military materials. Cement, steel and some other building materials could be considered dual purpose and may fit the definition of military materials or components.
However Israel blocks glass, wood, paper, many food items and medicines, and many other items which clearly do not meet the definition of military materials. Food and medicine of any type cannot be legally blocked, even chocolate, prime rib steaks, moisturizing cremes and heartburn medication. Israel cannot legally block educational material like books, paper, pens and pencils. Israel cannot legally block any non-military items from entering Gaza. The fact that Israel blocks non-military material from entering Gaza proves the main intent of Israel's blockade is to collectively punish 1.4 million civilians.
Israel's military blockade is legal. Israel's non-military blockade is illegal and has nothing to do with Israel's right to self defense. Since Israel's illegal non-military blockade collectively punishes 1.4 million civilians, it qualifies as a crime against humanity.
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I'm glad you understand that. So your asinine comparison to Nazi's is again just BS.
And I agree, anyone that would stop Prime rib from being consumed is cruel and oppressive...:roll:
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Machjo commented on my post:
"Are you ignoring the fact that Israel's current borders extend beyond those recognized by the UN? Seeing that it is occupying territory beyond its borders, it has shown itself to be expansionist, thus a threat to its neihbours.
And no I'm not excusing Palestinian attacks against innocent Israeli civilians; I'm just saying that even in accordance with international law Israel occupies land that does not belong to Israel and certainly Israeli soldiers on that soil are legitimate targets for those fighting for their land back. Through granted those who kill innocent Israeli civilians are equally culpable of a crime. I'm just saying it goes both ways."
No, I am NOT ignoring the fact that Israel's borders are beyond the borders the United Nations voted on in 1947. But you seem to ignore the fact that in any war in history the spoils always went to the victor. In the 1967 war the Arabs proved to the entire world that they are not capable of winning any open conflict, their strength lies in subterfuge, treachery and backstabbing, as taught by their prophet, pis be upon him. So, they lost land legitimately, due to their own incompetance.
There are many examples in world history where the winners took land that historically, ethnically and morally does not belong to them. The conquered nations always had enough honesty and integrity to accept defeat. Only the morally deficient tried and is still trying to overturn the just and realistic outcome of history by killing innocent people, not only on the scene of the conflict, but everywhere in the world.
Support this bunch of murderers and you reveal your own pathetic self.
"Are you ignoring the fact that Israel's current borders extend beyond those recognized by the UN? Seeing that it is occupying territory beyond its borders, it has shown itself to be expansionist, thus a threat to its neihbours.
And no I'm not excusing Palestinian attacks against innocent Israeli civilians; I'm just saying that even in accordance with international law Israel occupies land that does not belong to Israel and certainly Israeli soldiers on that soil are legitimate targets for those fighting for their land back. Through granted those who kill innocent Israeli civilians are equally culpable of a crime. I'm just saying it goes both ways."
No, I am NOT ignoring the fact that Israel's borders are beyond the borders the United Nations voted on in 1947. But you seem to ignore the fact that in any war in history the spoils always went to the victor. In the 1967 war the Arabs proved to the entire world that they are not capable of winning any open conflict, their strength lies in subterfuge, treachery and backstabbing, as taught by their prophet, pis be upon him. So, they lost land legitimately, due to their own incompetance.
There are many examples in world history where the winners took land that historically, ethnically and morally does not belong to them. The conquered nations always had enough honesty and integrity to accept defeat. Only the morally deficient tried and is still trying to overturn the just and realistic outcome of history by killing innocent people, not only on the scene of the conflict, but everywhere in the world.
Support this bunch of murderers and you reveal your own pathetic self.
UN's Pillay: Gaza blockade illegal, must be lifted
Published: 06.05.10, 13:22 / Israel News UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said on Saturday Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal and should be lifted, and reiterated calls for an investigation into Israel's raid on aid supply ships this week.
"International humanitarian law prohibits starvation of civilians as a method of warfare and ... it is also prohibited to impose collective punishment on civilians," Pillay said. (Reuters)
for the UN
Yep.........4.4 kilos of aid per person per week.........and that is only what ISRAEL allows in, and is from an anti-Israel site.
That is hardly starvation.......indeed, even the Israel haters can at best accuse the Israelis of not providing their sworn enemies with a balanced diet.
Meanwhile, 800,000 are dead in the Sudan, 5 million in the Congo.......but ISRAEL!!!!
It is a very bad joke. The UN is becoming the equivalent of the NSDAP on the "Jewish Question".
A VERY good illustration of the reason why the UN must NEVER have an enforcement arm.
Israel has the legal right to block military material from entering Gaza.
Israel has no right to block non-military material from entering Gaza.
Israel's blockade of non-military items proves an intent to collectively punish civilians and is therefore illegal.
Since Israel controls what enters Gaza, they have a responsibility for the well being of the civilian population. Here are some of the results of Israel's illegal blockade.
From UNICEF:
UNHRC:
I'm not surprised that so many sheeple are incapable of recognizing senseless cruelty, war crimes and crimes against humanity. snopes.com: Hermann Goering
Israel has no right to block non-military material from entering Gaza.
Israel's blockade of non-military items proves an intent to collectively punish civilians and is therefore illegal.
Since Israel controls what enters Gaza, they have a responsibility for the well being of the civilian population. Here are some of the results of Israel's illegal blockade.
From UNICEF:
Christian Science Monitor
BBC
Targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure violates international laws and treaties regarding the conduct of war.
UNHRC:
I'm not surprised that so many sheeple are incapable of recognizing senseless cruelty, war crimes and crimes against humanity. snopes.com: Hermann Goering
Israel has the right to exist and the sooner Palestinians accept it the sooner peace and prosperity will come
Does this mean you support also Sudanese and Congolese war crimes and crimes against humanity or just Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity? Go ahead and start a string in support of the Sudan's blockade of humanitarian food aid, or the DRC government's genocidal war against millions of civilians. You can recycle the same arguments you use in support of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity. I'll recycle the same arguments I use against Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.
I suspect you are making the argument, that Israeli crimes are less serious than Sudanese and Congolese crimes, in which case I'd agree. But your argument would be like arguing that since Ted Bundy was a far worse serial killer than Clifford Olson, Clifford Olson should be released. Israel is guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, just like The Sudan and The DRC and they should face appropriate sanctions.
Tim McVeigh proved that diesel and fertilizer can be combined to form a big blast. Both items are "legal" and can considered necessary. That said, to employ a simple view that illegal items are only those that are assembled weapons/bombs, etc is a fantasy.
In the end, Hamas brought all this crap down on their own heads through their own stupidity and clearly, they have no compunction to force the suffering of their own population in order to attempt to get some sympathy.
But like the authorities devote greater manpower to greater crimes, we don't see that in you.
What we see is selective outrage and directed energy.
You expend far more energy chasing Israel around, while other far more serious crimes go on with very little change, if any at all.
I've seen your justification of this, but it rings hallow. You're simply a bigot, with a hate on for the big bad Joos. You try and hide, and do a good job of it, but in the end we see through your flimsy facade.
Its a fact that 10% of Gaza children have stunted growth from malnutrition directly attributable to Israel's blockade. A majority of Gaza children suffer vitamin deficiencies. Most water in Gaza is not safe to drink and raw sewage flows on Gaza's streets. I'd like to know how creating these problems contributes to Israel's security?
You'd think it would be easy to convince people that blocking humanitarian aid like food and medicine from reaching hungry and sick civilians is wrong. Notice the lack of outrage by Israeli apologists. Where is their humanity? Shame on people who support Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.
What's going on in Israel and the Occupied Territories is not that different from what was going on in Nazi Germany during the 1930's. Germans should have spoken out at the time, but instead a majority supported Nazi atrocities. Goering was a Nazi, but his statement about how people can be manipulated by propaganda was as accurate now as it was back then. Israeli apologists support Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity for the same reason a majority of Germans supported the Nazis. If pro-Israel propaganda has convinced you that all Palestinians terrorists, then you won't feel much empathy for their suffering. But as soon as you see Palestinians as fellow human beings, then Israel's treatment of these people are easily identified as war crimes and crimes against humanity.
You'd think it would be easy to convince people that blocking humanitarian aid like food and medicine from reaching hungry and sick civilians is wrong. Notice the lack of outrage by Israeli apologists. Where is their humanity? Shame on people who support Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.
What's going on in Israel and the Occupied Territories is not that different from what was going on in Nazi Germany during the 1930's. Germans should have spoken out at the time, but instead a majority supported Nazi atrocities. Goering was a Nazi, but his statement about how people can be manipulated by propaganda was as accurate now as it was back then. Israeli apologists support Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity for the same reason a majority of Germans supported the Nazis. If pro-Israel propaganda has convinced you that all Palestinians terrorists, then you won't feel much empathy for their suffering. But as soon as you see Palestinians as fellow human beings, then Israel's treatment of these people are easily identified as war crimes and crimes against humanity.
I don't know, perhaps you should ask Hamas. I mean obviously someones eating well in Palestine. Perhaps if they truly were needy people the great leaders of Hamas would forgo the prime rib and give more to the people right?
It is, that's why it's illegal.
Notice the selective outrage by the neo Nazi's.
Same place as the prime rib.
I concure. Can you point them out. The crimes that is.
I agree. What's going on here is about the same. People concocting outrageous BS to label the Joos as boogiemen and apes.
Again true. Which as you pointed out, is just like today, with people like you making stuff up and applying selective outrage.
I agree, yet again. Just look how quick all the Joo haters were, to jump on the "illegal" boat, before they even knew what the law was, lol.
See, there's those lies again.
More BS, no one here has said all Palestinians are terrorists. Just Hamas.
As soon as the Palestinians elect a Gov't that doesn't make genocide part of its party platform, I will do a lot more then just view them as fellow human beings, which I already do anyways.
I have a question though, where does your moral superiority stem from?
I mean you support an internationally recognized terrorist group, with a an ancestry that has been proven to stretch back to Nazi Germany. You selectively expend energy on pointing out "crimes". You've ignored, dismissed or fallen silent without ever actually refuting the documentation, every time you've been shown wrong on things like history. In fact, so many times, I've lost count. You either purposely manipulate or use manipulated interpretations of law to suit your agenda, from sources that have actually been proven to be erroneous, and bias. Again, so many times, I've lost count. You completely ignore, dismiss or worse, justify the assaults on Israel, by countries who have stated, published and braodcast calls for the complete and utter destructive of Israel and the genocide of all Jews. And that you too, you completely ignore, dismiss or justify.
So seriously, where do you get the idea you're morally superior?
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UN's Pillay: Gaza blockade illegal, must be lifted
Published: 06.05.10, 13:22 / Israel News UN High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay said on Saturday Israel's blockade of Gaza is illegal and should be lifted, and reiterated calls for an investigation into Israel's raid on aid supply ships this week.
"International humanitarian law prohibits starvation of civilians as a method of warfare and ... it is also prohibited to impose collective punishment on civilians," Pillay said. (Reuters)
for the UN
Apparently I'm not the only one that sees the BS at the UN.
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I have no problem with Israel's blockade of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. It qualifies as military material.
Perhaps you can defend Israel's blockade of educational supplies like text books, paper, pens, pencils and other educational material.
How about Israel's blockade of building materials like wood and glass? Are these materials a threat to Israel?
What is the purpose of blocking food like macaroni, livestock, raw meat, spices, seeds and nuts, canned and dried fruit?
Also, how is Israel threatened by clothing, fabric for clothing and musical instruments?
Do you honestly believe Israel is only defending themselves by blocking these items? To me, their actions appear to be punitive.
>>>
Hamas is a complex organization. They are a political/religious/military/charity organization consisting of two main divisions. One is dedicated solely to charity, like building and running schools and hospitals. Its only the military branch which is a threat to Israel.
Hamas's leaders have repeatedly offered Israel multi-decade long ceasefires and were prepared to leave it to the next generation to decide how to deal with Israel. Israel responded by assassinating any Hamas leaders who advocated peace with Israel.
What does the assassination of Abu Shanab tell you about Israel's intentions?
Hamas: Target Of Retribution: My Last Encounter with Ismail Abu Shanab - TIME
Why would Israel assassinate Palestinian leaders who advocate peace?
No doubt Hamas is hostile toward Israel, but they always keep their word. They have never broken a ceasefire agreement first. But they have been provoked into violence by Israel when Israel violates their ceasefire agreements. Hamas subscribes to the "eye for an eye" philosophy. So when Israel violates their ceasefire agreements with violent raids and assassinations, Hamas almost always responds to violence with violence.
I can't recall a single ceasefire agreement being broken by Hamas first. Usually it was Israel, but sometimes it was other militant Palestinian groups, which Israel used to justify attacking Hamas. As far as I know, Hamas has always kept their word.
Not only does Hamas have a solid record of respecting their ceasefire agreements, they have also arrested militants from other groups when they violate ceasefire agreements. Of course you'd never read these facts in our news, because the truth about Hamas conflicts with the news media's simplistic caricature of Hamas the terrorist organization as cultivated by pro-Israeli propaganda.
Even Israel has admitted that Hamas never attacked Israel from June 18, 2008 until the Israeli raid into Gaza on November 4, 2008. (Likely Israel chose that date to violate the ceasefire because Barak Obama won the US presidential elections and they knew few western news sources would carry the story)
Not only did Hamas respect this ceasefire, they arrested anyone who violated it.
That's an example of Hamas keeping their word. They were rewarded with Israeli assassinations and raids.
Don't get me wrong. I do not support Hamas. I'm agnostic and a pacifist. I don't support militant religious groups like Hamas. But anyone who has objectively examined Hamas's record knows they say what they mean and if you can get them to agree to something, they keep their word... Hamas is only violent in response to violence and oppression (as per the Qu'ran). They are intolerant regarding freedom of religion and have an extreme viewpoint regarding morality. But they also have a demonstrated record of being honest and trustworthy, which explains why they won the last Palestinian election.
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I just looked up Palestinian classrooms, if you want you can go view them yourself, google is your friend. Nice classrooms, nice computers, all sorts of paper, pens, pencils and educational material. Hey, doesn't Hamas print their own educational material?
How about Israel's blockade of building materials like wood and glass? Are these materials a threat to Israel?
They don't block that, and you know know. They may have at one point in time, for all manner of reasons, but you know full well, that those items are not on a permanent list of no's.
To me, your punitive view of Israel and what they stop is manipulated, and I believe you know that.
But...
So when they say they want to eradicate the world of Joos, we should believe them?
And yet you still defend them because you are a...
Right, that's why you support and defend a neo Nazi group hell bent on exterminating Joos.
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Israel Rejects Joint Inquiry Into Aid Ship Attack
By Jason Ditz June 6, 2010
Following through on last week’s angry rejection of a UN Security Council resolution calling for an international probe into the attack against aid workers on board the Mavi Marmara, Israel has rejected efforts to organize a joint commission of Israel, the US and Turkey into the incident.
“Israel has the ability and the right to investigate itself, not to be investigated by any international board,” insisted Michael Oren, Israel’s Ambassador to the United States.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu added that any investigation into the killings would have to maintain “Israel’s national interests as well as those of the Israel Defense Forces.” He insisted that the Israeli probe will center around who organized and funded the “extremist” aid ship.
The commission was to be headed by former New Zealand Prime Minister Geoffrey Palmer. The United States had expressed support for an international probe but it is unclear if they will follow through with it against Israel’s wishes, as administration officials have declined to criticize Israel for the killings.
Israel maintains that there was a secret conspiracy to implicate them in the killings, involving 50 Turkish soldiers secreted away in the ships hold, heavily armed with grenades and weapons. The claim is widely reported as fact within the Israeli press, though the lack of any such weapons or soldiers on board makes the claim rather far-fetched. At least eight Turkish civilians and one American were among the slain, and despite claims that everyone on board was a “terrorist” in league with al-Qaeda Israel released every survivor without charging anyone with a crime.
By Jason Ditz June 6, 2010
Following through on last week’s angry rejection of a UN Security Council resolution calling for an international probe into the attack against aid workers on board the Mavi Marmara, Israel has rejected efforts to organize a joint commission of Israel, the US and Turkey into the incident.
“Israel has the ability and the right to investigate itself, not to be investigated by any international board,” insisted Michael Oren, Israel’s Ambassador to the United States.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu added that any investigation into the killings would have to maintain “Israel’s national interests as well as those of the Israel Defense Forces.” He insisted that the Israeli probe will center around who organized and funded the “extremist” aid ship.
The commission was to be headed by former New Zealand Prime Minister Geoffrey Palmer. The United States had expressed support for an international probe but it is unclear if they will follow through with it against Israel’s wishes, as administration officials have declined to criticize Israel for the killings.
Israel maintains that there was a secret conspiracy to implicate them in the killings, involving 50 Turkish soldiers secreted away in the ships hold, heavily armed with grenades and weapons. The claim is widely reported as fact within the Israeli press, though the lack of any such weapons or soldiers on board makes the claim rather far-fetched. At least eight Turkish civilians and one American were among the slain, and despite claims that everyone on board was a “terrorist” in league with al-Qaeda Israel released every survivor without charging anyone with a crime.
And rightly so. Given the lack of objectivity in the UN and around the world. I would likely react the same way.
Although I would truly love to see an independent investigation, I don't think it's possible, so why don't you take it to the ICC and see if you can get them to file formal charges, lol.
Your authors last name is highly appropriate too.