Arizona's Immigration Law

[DaSleeper]

Could even be ole Lolydo himself for all we know:smile:
He always claimed to be from Quebec...and a flurry of posts is his M.O.:lol: probably has a new IP and is trying it out

 

[Icarus27k]

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2009/jan/illegal-immigrant-gangs-commit-most-u-s-crime

Your link, Judicial Watch, says, "[The 2009 National Gang Violence Intelligence Estimate] says that up to 80% of crime in the U.S. is committed by gangs."

No, what the report says is that up to 80% of all crime in some local communities is committed by gangs, as you can see from the sixth paragraph of the FBI press release.

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel09/ngta020209.htm





I could probably pick these links apart some more.

 

[Colpy]

The best comment yet:

CBC News - World - Is Arizona's law really as draconian as its critics say?

On CBC no less!

The entire debate is ludicrous, the law is simple, and well within constitutional parameters.

The lefties are making hay out of nothing.

 

[Icarus27k]

Socially accepted racial profiling is not out of nothing. I personally would like to see the federal government cut off non-essientual federal funds to Arizona.

I have no ethical concerns about people crossing the border without permission. What people should have a problem with is some of the craziness that goes on in the state, in it's law enforcement system and law. Those have got to have some kind of consequences. When your state rivals Alabama during the George Wallace era, yeah that's pretty bad.

 

[Icarus27k]

It's the old left trick, with an election coming up of accusing the right of "racism" "being homophobic" "religious bible thumping" etc... etc.. and the koolaid drinkers are falling for it as anyone with eyes can see....right in this thread:lol:

It's just common sense (not Kool-Aid, a phrase that is completely overused and should be retired from the lexicon of anyone who wants to be taken seriously) to say that it's completely insane to force people to carry around ID at all times and allowing authorities to ask for ID over trivial matters.

Source: PolitiFact | Under Arizona immigration law, overgrown lawns, barking dogs could trigger questioning, lawmaker says

It serves no good and potentually facilitates racial profiling.

 

[TenPenny]

Socially accepted racial profiling is not out of nothing. I personally would like to see the federal government cut off non-essientual federal funds to Arizona.

So I gather that you're fundamentally opposed to the police being able to ask you for a driver's licence when they pull you over?

 

[Icarus27k]

No, that has almost nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's insane to force people to carry identification papers all of the time. There is no reasonable justification for it at all.

 

[Colpy]

No, that has almost nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's insane to force people to carry identification papers all of the time. There is no reasonable justification for it at all.

Excuse me?

Only immigrants have to carry papers............

 

[TenPenny]

No, that has almost nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's insane to force people to carry identification papers all of the time. There is no reasonable justification for it at all.

I agree it's insane, and here's a news flash for you: the Arizona law doesn't.
Incidentally, if you drive a car, you are required to carry a license while driving. That's not part of this law.
If you're a Permanent Resident in the US, federal law (note the use of the word federal) requires you to carry proof AT ALL TIMES.

Reading the actual text of the law is quite illuminating. I found it interesting to read the law, and then compare that with what people are claiming it says or means.

 

[Icarus27k]

That is, forcing ANY people to carry identification papers all the time is completely ridiculous, and is an invitation for abuse of the system. There's no justification for it at all.

There really does have to be some sort of consequences for Arizona over this, and the general way they run their law enforcement system.

 

[TenPenny]

That is, forcing ANY people to carry identification papers all the time is completely ridiculous, and is an invitation for abuse of the system. There's no justification for it at all.

Then you need to take that up with the feds, not Arizona. Put the blame where it belongs.

 

[ironsides]

No, that has almost nothing to do with what I'm talking about. It's insane to force people to carry identification papers all of the time. There is no reasonable justification for it at all.

What you do not understand is that it is against the law for any alien legal or otherwise to leave their home without papers showing their status. They are not citizens and do not have the same rights. (Drivers license, Green Card, Student ID what ever)

 

[DaSleeper]

What you do not understand is that it is against the law for any alien legal or otherwise to leave their home without papers showing their status. They are not citizens and do not have the same rights. (Drivers license, Green Card, Student ID what ever)

That has been repeated several times already in this thread and people on the left choose to skip over that and keep repeating the same chant over and over and then try to admonish someone calling them koolaid drinkers...
They seem very selective about their reading ability.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Then you need to take that up with the feds, not Arizona. Put the blame where it belongs.

Quite so, and it is in the federal jurisdiction to enforce the law, it is not any of Arizona's business.

If they ask Hispanic drivers to produce driver's license, Arizona has that right. However, I don't think Arizona has the right to check green card of immigrants, that is the jurisdiction of federal government.

And to require legal Hispanic US citizens to carry identification at all times (even when they are not driving, but just walking down the street or are passengers in a car) may well violate their civil rights.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

What you do not understand is that it is against the law for any alien legal or otherwise to leave their home without papers showing their status. They are not citizens and do not have the same rights. (Drivers license, Green Card, Student ID what ever)

What about legal citizens, is it also against the law for them to leave home without driver's license or proof of citizenship?

Suppose a legal Hispanic citizen is walking down the street or is a passenger in somebody's car. The cop asks him for identification. He says he doesn't have any, but that he is a US citizen and is not required to carry any. Is he then arrested on the spot and left to rot in jail?

 

[petros]

Who will clean the toilets at the EXXON?

 

[Icarus27k]

Here are some more sources for ya.
Immigration law enforcement has been a key ingredient contributing to the success of criminal gang suppression efforts in many jurisdictions across the United States. Since 2005, the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) has arrested more than 8,000 gangsters from more than 700 different gangs as part of a special initiative known as Operation Community Shield. This effort has produced incalculable public safety benefits for American communities, despite being criticized periodically by immigrant and civil liberties advocates that are consistently opposed to all immigration law enforcement.
Local governments and law enforcement agencies that shun involvement in immigration law enforcement are missing an opportunity to protect their communities from criminal immigrant gang activity. Policymakers should take further steps to institutionalize partnerships between state and local law enforcement agencies and ICE in order to address gang and other crime problems with a connection to immigration.
Immigrant gangs1 are considered a unique public safety threat due to their members’ propensity for violence and their involvement in transnational crime. The latest national gang threat assessment noted that Hispanic gang membership has been growing, especially in the Northeast and the South, and that areas with new immigrant populations are especially vulnerable to gang activity. 2 A large share of the immigrant gangsters in the most notorious gangs such as Mara Salvatrucha (MS-13), Surenos-13, and 18th Street are illegal aliens. Their illegal status means they are especially vulnerable to law enforcement, and local authorities should take advantage of the immigration tools available in order to disrupt criminal gang activity, remove gang members from American communities, and deter their return. Once explained, these measures find much support, especially in immigrant communities where gang crime is rampant.
Taking Back the Streets: ICE and Local Law Enforcement Target Immigrant Gangs | Center for Immigration Studies


Gang follows illegal aliens - Washington Times

Illegal Immigrant Gangs Commit Most U.S. Crime | Judicial Watch

Now that I am off work, I can more fully respond to this. This information doesn't contradict the initial claim that violent crime rates and property crime rates are down, and that the estimated 12 million unathorized immigrants in the US as of the December 2007 CBO doesn't contribute to a rise in those rates. Rather all this info says is that crime that's still out there is gang-related.

Some of the statements in your links don't even distingish among authorized immigrants, unathorized immigrants, and Hispanics. They just lump them all together as if to imply that Hispanic = immigrant; immigrant = illegal, etc., using these statements seemingly interchangably.

 

[Icarus27k]

Re-read that blog post from the Center for Immigration Studies and try to make sense out of it.


"Immigrant gangs [Authorized or unathorized immgrants? Cause our topic at hand is the 12 million unathorized immigrants in the US. We're not talking about refugee status immigrants, or permanent residants, or even less, US citizens who are of families that have immigrated]are considered a unique public safety threat due to their members’ propensity for violence and their involvement in transnational crime. The latest national gang threat assessment noted that Hispanic gang membership [Why are we assuming Hispanics are immigrants, or unathorized here? There are large populations of Americans who are Hispanic with no more connections to immigration than like a white person's connection to the Mayflower] has been growing, especially in the Northeast and the South, and that areas with new immigrant populations are especially vulnerable to gang activity."





If we don't wade through these terms that are being used interchangably when they shouldn't, then you could be simply giving off-topic info in a discussion about the 12 million unathorized's effect on crime.



I know the Center for Immigration Studies may see no difference among Hispanics, permanant residents, refugees, and unathorized immigrants, but intelligence and truth require it.

 

[Icarus27k]

ironsides, I am going to throw some more doubt on your sources.

What's with all the focus on the M-13 gang? That's really odd. This particular gang is not associated with Mexico, the country where the overwhelming majority of unathorized immigrants in the US come from.

Your Center for Immigration Studies link refers to this gang as having a lot of illegal immigrants in it. I have doubts about how that is possible. The M-13 mostly comes from El Salvador, and to a lesser degree, Honduras.

Both of these countries are on the State Department's list of countries that have a Temporary Protected Status, and have been on the list for some time. This is a list of countries that the US accepts refugees from.

Source: Temporary protected status - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


While the gangsters in M-13 may be bad guys, if they are Salvadoran and Honduran, they are not illegal immigrants. They are refugees. If they get caught committing crime by law enforcement officials and deported, they are being deported because they committed crime, not because of their immigration status.

Of course, the US SHOULD NOT be deporting gangsters because doing so creates a vicious cycle wherein they go back home and create more strife, which leads to more refugees coming back to the US.

I suspect the Center for Immigration Studies erred by referring to the gangsters as illegals.

 

[petros]

Aztlan only has one pure group of originals. Everyone else is an immigrant.