Two articles on Trudeau' real legacy.
- Thread starter CDNBear
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Actually the debt had already mushroomed, but Mulroney added massively to it. When Trudeau took over the debt was about 10 billion. After sixteen years in power and considerable inflation he had run it up to 170 billion. When Mulroney left office the debt had increased to about 540 billion. It seems to me that the Mulroney government bears some responsibility given that it was elected on a promise to halt deficit financing and reduce the debt. Unfortunately, the Mulroney government resorted to copying the failed economic policies of Ronald Reagan.
The figures given would probably made more sense if they were listed as a percent of GDP. but I have been unable to find such a figure.
Does that show enough knowledge of history for you?
And nowhere will you find me removing any responsibility from Mulroney.
But, one would have to know the bulk of the failed and expensive social policies of Trudeau and how Mulroney failed to reverse the lot of them. To fully grasp why the debt grew so disproportionately.
Your figures aren't wrong and they certainly weren't under scrutiny.
Nope.
I guess the problem is that we expect our leaders to be perfect. That is simply not going to happen as Americans are finding out about Obama. All leaders have certain flaws including those who are reckoned to some of the greatest in history. One that comes to mind was Winston Churchill who was a great wartime leader, but didn't seem to be able to get things right during peacetime. Trudeau to me is quite a bit like that. He was arrogant, impatient, and had little use for ceremony, but he did get Canada's constitution out of the hands of the British (something they were glad to relinquish in any case and he was a royal pain in the backside so far as Ronald Reagan was concerned - for that alone he should be remembered. Canada has had very few PMs who have stood up to the US. And he did help prevent the horrible mangling of Canada's constitution proposed by Brian Mulroney on two occasions. I voted for him just once; in 1968. After that I went back to my usual extreme left of centre voting.
Actually no, I'm far to cynical for that, I expect them to be lying cheating scum.
This is true, and most likely due to the fact that peoples ideology make them blind to certain facts.
Agreed.
The Brits aside, I disagree. That was detrimental to our trade situations and relations.
A leader of this country can be sovereign, and not sh!t in the shoes of the US leadership at the same time. Doing the latter only please the anti American crowd. That doesn't make it note worthy.
Again, there is a monumental difference between standing up and pissing off, our biggest trading partner, closest allies and neighbours. Not to mention, thanx to PET, our military couldn't have withstood a military invasion, let alone a catastrophic natural disaster at that time, so who would we have relied on?
That's how you perceived it. And in the end, it's all about perceptions, isn't it?
That explains a few things, but I like you non the less Bar, you have a good head on your shoulders.
I don't follow. whats the left scale and what's the right scale?
I have never considered Mulroney a conservative, and he sure didn't work hard to reduce the deficit, but I wonder if he could have if he tried. I remember when Joke Lark beat Turdeau and gave us a short hiatus of (red) Tory rule. As a deficit reduction strategy he increased gasoline taxes, quite a bit I might add. I know, I was pumping gas at the time. Joe fell on that budget and the writ was dropped. Pierre vehemently proclaimed that he would never, ever, raise taxes like that. Well, guess what? within months gas had gone from around $.60/gal (after the LIberals originally dropped the tax) to over $1/gal. Since the pump price only went to $.999, we has to halve the pump price and charge double what total read. But then we went metric and that made things simpler :lol:.
Anyway, that being said, Trudeau got the ball rolling on socialism. That is like rolling a small snowball down a big hill. By the time it reached Mulroney it would have taken a Herculean effort to stop it. The problem with Socialism is that it rewards sloth and makes a majority beholden to the government. Whether it comes incrimentally or as a revolution matters little, except that if it starts quickly it can be nipped in the bud early on if the political will exists. But ask anyone who has come from a failed socialist state what a world of hurt came with the demise of long tem collectivism. We cannot stop it politically now, and it is a monster of a beast to feed. Over 50% of taxpayers work either directly or indirectly for government. Many more rely on government just to exist. Though it is a major problem worldwide to varying extents, I blame Trudeau for bringing it to us.
Anyway, that being said, Trudeau got the ball rolling on socialism. That is like rolling a small snowball down a big hill. By the time it reached Mulroney it would have taken a Herculean effort to stop it. The problem with Socialism is that it rewards sloth and makes a majority beholden to the government. Whether it comes incrimentally or as a revolution matters little, except that if it starts quickly it can be nipped in the bud early on if the political will exists. But ask anyone who has come from a failed socialist state what a world of hurt came with the demise of long tem collectivism. We cannot stop it politically now, and it is a monster of a beast to feed. Over 50% of taxpayers work either directly or indirectly for government. Many more rely on government just to exist. Though it is a major problem worldwide to varying extents, I blame Trudeau for bringing it to us.
That Bob, is the way I remember the events. I oftten wonder how different things would be today, had Joe Clark survived.
EB - the left scale refers to the gray bars (billions of dollars). The right scale shows the federal deficit as a percent of GDP (the black line). Like any graph, you can interpret it a couple of ways.
This one shows the deficit growing pretty steadily over the years, but you'll see that the GDP "outgrew it" by looking at the black line. That could be taken to mean that money was invested in growing the economy, and it obviously worked.
Some would say that growth was just a matter of luck but like I said, stats and graphs can be interpreted many different ways...it all depends on the point(s) one wishes to make.
Bob, that's a pretty good summary and thanks for writing it. Back in the 80s, I had the opportunity to work with a few folks from behind the Iron Curtain, and they were baffled as to why some Canadians embraced socialism. They were polite about it of course, but the collective question on their minds was, "Why they like dis socialism...they are not knowing where dis will lead to?" (My version of how they said it).
They had worked hard to get out from under the iron fist of government control and were very apprehensive about the leftist movements here, after spending some time in Canada.
One of them ended up going back to Europe as he couldn't cope with the "freedom" here...he simply couldn't function in an environment where he had to make decisions constantly. He was the youngest of the bunch, and had really never had to "think on his feet." He wasn't a bad guy - he just couldn't function in a society that still enjoyed freedom.
Socialism ain't all roses, especially when carried to an extreme.
Good morning Countryboy (you slept in ?) I think that chart is what is known as "statistics". I looked at it, and was a little chagrinned to notice the debt hasn't actually gone down as much as I thought (or others would lead us to believe), but I suppose just getting the "bleeding" stopped was a major triumph in itself (if you don't count transferringi it to the provinces. I hate deficit, debts as much as anyone, but I suppose if you owe $100,000 when your house is worth $300,000 is worse than owing $150,000 when your house is worth $400,000. Of course one problem is you don't find out what it's ACTUALLY worth until you sell it. Do you think they should get some mining happening on the shield? :lol::lol:
That reminds me of the emancipation of the Negros in the U.S. After they were "free" many of them found it just too overwhelming for them having to manage their own affairs connected to daily living. "Things are often not what they seem"
Didn't sleep in...just too much curling going on at the Brier...people from Manitoba (like me) have a bit of an addiction to it. :-(
Mining on the shield? Of course! Mind you, according to some "experts" the propectors would apparently wreak havoc on the environment. I'm surprised Mowich - a former prospector - hasn't commented on that yet. Mind you, she's likely all tied up watching curling too! :lol:
I wonder if Trudeau was also a fan of curling.. ( seeing I was not a fan of him ) I have no idea, but trying to get back on topic. :lol::lol::lol:
Yeah good point, Francis! I don't recall seeing Trudeau on the ice but I think he talk a walk in the snow once, or something like that. :lol:
Trudeau was one of the only politicians that did anything positive and long lasting for this country (as far as I can tell)...Helped to form our identity ,give us our independence.( I would have chose Blue, green maybe some yellow,a little white with a touch of red for flag colours 8O 
,but the maple leaf was a good touch.. The flag has become a proud symbol of Canada, has grown on me and apparently all Canadians :canada
...Anyway
It is obvious to see Trudeaus' legacy lives on ,by the impact he had ,and continues to have on this country and it's people..
Years later...We're still talkn' about him ...;-):smile:
,but the maple leaf was a good touch.. The flag has become a proud symbol of Canada, has grown on me and apparently all Canadians :canada...Anyway
It is obvious to see Trudeaus' legacy lives on ,by the impact he had ,and continues to have on this country and it's people..
Years later...We're still talkn' about him ...;-):smile: