Basic Human Rights - Define them?

Liberalman

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True human rights belong to the people that have wealth because they can change their situation.

How about the poor and the homeless on the streets of free countries like America or Canada and the rest of the free world.

How about the fetus rights to exist safely in the womb until birth instead of being viciously ripped out of there piece by bloody piece.

You just can't pick and choose basic human right they must apply to everyone not just a few that an organization picks.
 

JLM

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True human rights belong to the people that have wealth because they can change their situation.

How about the poor and the homeless on the streets of free countries like America or Canada and the rest of the free world.

How about the fetus rights to exist safely in the womb until birth instead of being viciously ripped out of there piece by bloody piece.

You just can't pick and choose basic human right they must apply to everyone not just a few that an organization picks.

Very true.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Goober, when I posted my views on basic rights, it was just my opinion. However, I read the article on human rights in Wikipedia and it bears me out to a surprising extent.

There is no right listed by United Nations with respect to food, shelter or water. On the contrary, the article specifically states the following:

There is no current universal human right to water, binding or not, enshrined by the United Nations or any other multilateral body.

There have been a few non binding statements by some UN official as to how everybody should have access to water, but no basic right as such.

Interestingly, you also don’t seem to mention the right to food, water, shelter etc. when you blame countries for violating human rights.

Yet to this day many counties have no basics of justice - Freedom from persecutions based upon, Race, Color, Creed, Ethnic Status, Sexual Orientation and other Basic Human Rights to name a few.

As to UN declaration of human rights, rights 1 to 10 deals with the basic rights that I have mentioned. The right to food comes way down the list, no, 25, demonstrating that UN does not really regard it as a basic right. When it comes so far down the line, it really must be regarded as a wish list, rather than a basic right.

And quite rightly too. If a country is very poor, it cannot grant the right to food and water through no fault of its own. It would be absurd to blame a country for something that it does not have resources to do.

Equality, freedom of press, freedom of speech, of religion etc. are within the capability of every nation to bestow, there is no excuse not to bestow them and hence they are regarded a basic human rights.

As to food, water and shelter, it is a wish list, we would hope that everybody in the world has sufficient food, water and shelter. But that is not a basic right.
 

JLM

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"But that is not a basic right."

Let's not get hung up on semantics, call them basic needs if you like. If these can not be fulfilled, then the "basic rights" become a moot point.
 

CDNBear

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"But that is not a basic right."

Let's not get hung up on semantics, call them basic needs if you like. If these can not be fulfilled, then the "basic rights" become a moot point.
This may very well be true, but some have used this lie to attack Israel, with cries of crimes against humanity, just look at eao's threads/posts. It's a common theme to attack Israel with accusations of denying water, which isn't true mind you, as a crime against humanity. It isn't listed as such. Thus making it an opinion, not a fact.
 

earth_as_one

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Do you think people should earn their food or do you think it should just be handed to them?
Of course people should be taught to fish rather than be given fish over the long-term. In the case of humanitarian disasters like Haiti, New Orleans after Katrina... emergency aid should be immediate. After a few weeks the emphasis should switch to building infrastructure.
 

CDNBear

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Of course people should be taught to fish rather than be given fish over the long-term. In the case of humanitarian disasters like Haiti, New Orleans after Katrina... emergency aid should be immediate. After a few weeks the emphasis should switch to building infrastructure.
Then why is it Israel's responsibility to make sure Palestinians have said supplies? I mean according to you anyways...:-|
 

JLM

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Of course people should be taught to fish rather than be given fish over the long-term. In the case of humanitarian disasters like Haiti, New Orleans after Katrina... emergency aid should be immediate. After a few weeks the emphasis should switch to building infrastructure.

Absolutely- but at that point the recipient incurs an obligation.
 

JLM

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When I give to charity, I don't expect nothing in return except to be thanked. My true reward are the results.

I don't either but I expect the person to get up off his ass and start contribution. My pay back comes when some disaster strikes me and I'm temporarily down and out.
 

MHz

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This isn't singling you out , you just happened to mention two things worth replying to, and I have a question just for you.

On this board you would qualify as an 'expert' in 'treaties' and what they mean by the way they are written. At times some would appear to be quite useless even before they were signed. How is the investigation into war-crime breaches and the resulting trial any different than when a treaty is broken by one of the parties that signed it and that issue goes through our courts. I would also bet that any Lawyer that has been involved in treaty cases would automatically be able to see all the loop-hole built into any 'peace treaty' Israel drafts because the end result is the same. It won't be worth the paper it is written on by Isreal and it will also be expected to be followed by the letter for the Palestinians.
If both situations can be viewed as being similar (and therefore just the way things actually work) then all the human rights documents that Nations have agreed to follow (from about 1950) means nothing and they should have just set up quotas. No crime if less than 50,000 are killed at one event. The ones having bombs dropped on them already know the documents mean squat, when are we going to see it?

This may very well be true, but some have used this lie to attack Israel, with cries of crimes against humanity, just look at eao's threads/posts. It's a common theme to attack Israel with accusations of denying water, which isn't true mind you, as a crime against humanity. It isn't listed as such. Thus making it an opinion, not a fact.
Along with operation cast lead there are other incidents that should be included as a 'follow-up' when considering things with the label war-crime. Using military equipment to destroy a sewage facility with the express purpose of causing the sewage to spill out onto what is agricultural land should be able to be classified as destruction that is targeting civilians (food access) or using a civilian authority to open the outflow of a dam just enough to cause flooding of agricultural land after crops have started to grow is a war crime because it is targeting civilians also, no crop to harvest means everybody goes hungry.

Although this article is about Lebanon the destruction of the same type of facilities elswhere would be the same crime. Once it has been destroyed (say a water-treatment plant) it is kept that way. If they claim the damage was unintentional then Israel should pick up the repair bill, including the spill mentioned in the article. I'm not sure why Lebanon hasn't been approached by the UN to do a report similar to the one done about operation cast lead.

"Amnesty representatives who traveled to Lebanon described mass destruction in "village after village." Roads were destroyed by aerial and artillery bombardment. Businesses such as supermarkets and gasoline stations were targeted and destroyed "often with precision-guided munitions and artillery that started fires and destroyed their contents." The use of such weapons indicates intentional destruction rather than the vaguer claim of collateral damage.

Environmental damage is also mounting and may cause long-term damage in the Mediterranean Sea. Due to the Israeli air force attack on the Jiyyeh power station just south of Beirut, the resulting explosions and fire burned for three weeks. In addition to massive air pollution as much as 15,000 tons of fuel oil leaked into the sea. The oil slick is believed to cover about 240 miles of the Lebanese coastline according to the United Nations Environmental Program, and will take years and billions of dollars to clean up.

By contrast, other sources show that after Israel began its aerial assault on Lebanon, Hezbollah launched thousands of rockets into northern Israel over the 34-day period which resulted in the deaths of 40 non-combatant Israelis and the displacement of thousands.

The Amnesty report also cited high-ranking Israeli military officials who openly declared non-military targets to be fair game. In apparent blatant disregard of international law protecting non-combatants and civilian infrastructure from military attack, Israeli military Chief of Staff Lt. General Dan Halutz was quoted as saying that all of Beirut could be targeted. "Nothing is safe, as simple as that," Halutz told reporters. He further reportedly added that Lebanon itself would "pay a very high price" for Hezbollah's actions.

Israeli military and government officials justified their military tactics of targeting civilian infrastructure by claiming that Hezbollah had situated its forces within a civilian population, in effect, using non-combatants as a "human shield." The Amnesty report, however, points out that "[w]hile the use of civilians to shield a combatant from attack is a war crime, under international humanitarian law such use does not release the opposing party from its obligations towards the protection of the civilian population."

In other words, Israel, despite Hezbollah's actions, was obligated under international laws it has agreed to, to carefully distinguish between military and civilian targets. Its deliberate failure to do so violates international law.

In a press release accompanying the report, Kate Gilmore, Executive Deputy Secretary General of Amnesty International, stated, "Israel's assertion that the attacks on the infrastructure were lawful is manifestly wrong. Many of the violations identified in our report are war crimes, including indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks. The evidence strongly suggests that the extensive destruction of power and water plants, as well as the transport infrastructure vital for food and other humanitarian relief, was deliberate and an integral part of a military strategy." "
Political Affairs Magazine - Human Rights Organization Describes Israeli Military Actions as Criminal

Then why is it Israel's responsibility to make sure Palestinians have said supplies? I mean according to you anyways...:-|
It isn't, however if they interfere with the deliver of such supplies (from the sea)then it is a war-crime. Israel blocks access to the open Sea, that is a war-crime also.
 

earth_as_one

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I found this web page which seems relevant to this string, so I'm posting it.

MSF Releases 12th Annual "Top Ten" List

Civilians attacked, bombed, and cut off from aid in Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan, and the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC), along with stagnant funding for treating HIV/AIDS and ongoing neglect of other diseases, were among the worst emergencies in 2009.
Continuing crises in north and south Sudan, along with the failure of the international community to finally combat childhood malnutrition were also included on this year's list. The list is drawn from MSF's operational activities in close to 70 countries, where the organization's medical teams witnessed some of the worst humanitarian conditions. Read the full press release »

Unrelenting Violence Stalks Civilians Throughout Eastern DR Congo


Somalis Endure Violence and Lack of Access to Health Care


Precarious Situation for People in Southern Sudan and Darfur


Thousands Injured during the Final Stage of Sri Lanka's Decades-long War


Civilians Suffer From Violence & Neglect in Pakistan



Politics of Aid Leaves many Afghans Cut off from Humanitarian Assistance


Civilians Trapped in Violent War in Northern Yemen


Woefully Inadequate Funding Undermines Gains in Childhood Malnutrition Treatment


Funding for AIDS Treatment Stagnating Despite Millions Still in Need


Lack of R&D and Scale Up of Treatment Plagues Patients with Neglected Diseases



"There is no question that civilians are increasingly victimized in conflicts and further cut off from lifesaving assistance, often deliberately. In places like Sri Lanka and Yemen, where armed conflicts raged in 2009, aid groups were either blocked from accessing those in need or forced out because they too came under fire. This unacceptable dynamic is becoming the norm. Our teams on the ground are witnessing the very tangible human consequences of these crises directly, either in war zones or in the AIDS and nutrition clinics in which they work. We're therefore compelled and obligated to speak out.


MSF's Top Ten Humanitarian Crises of 2009
 

earth_as_one

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The conflict in the DRC is especially troubling because of its scale and duration. Back in 2003 when we were being conditioned to support the Iraq war crime, it was the world's greatest humanitarian disaster. Over three million people died violently in the previous five years of civil war. Yet our news never reported it. Instead they portrayed Iraq as the world's greatest humanitarian crisis. Its true that they were suffering, but the main cause was the economic embargo, imposed on Iraq until they eliminated their WMD stockpiles, which didn't exist in 2003.

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

--60 Minutes (5/12/96)

9/11 happened five years later after many more Iraqi children died from disease and malnutrition.

Why Do They Hate US?

... To many people in the Middle East and beyond, where US policy has bred widespread anti-Americanism, the carnage of Sept. 11 was retribution.

And voices across the Muslim world are warning that if America doesn't wage its war on terrorism in a way that the Muslim world considers just, America risks creating even greater animosity.

Mr. Haider is a hero of Pakistan's 1965 war against India, and a sworn friend of America. But he and his neighbors in one of Islamabad's toniest districts are clear about why their warm feelings toward the US are not widely shared in Pakistan.

In his dim office in a north London mosque, Abu Hamza al-Masri sympathizes with the goals of Osama bin Laden, fingered by US officials as the prime suspect behind the Sept. 11 attacks. Abu Hamza has himself directed terrorist operations abroad, according to the British police, although for lack of evidence, they have never brought him to trial.

Mr. Zamzamy, a 30-something advertising executive in Jakarta, knew what was behind the attack, too. Trying to give his ads some zip and still stay within the bounds of his Muslim faith, he is keenly aware of the tensions between Islam and American-style global capitalism.

The 19 men - who US officials say hijacked four American passenger jets and flew them on suicide missions that left more than 7,000 people dead or missing - were all from the Middle East. Most of the hijackers have been identified as Muslims.

The vast majority of Muslims in the Middle East were as shocked and horrified as any American by what they saw happening on their TV screens. And they are frightened of being lumped together in the popular American imagination with the perpetrators of the attack.

But from Jakarta to Cairo, Muslims and Arabs say that on reflection, they are not surprised by it. And they do not share Mr. Bush's view that the perpetrators did what they did because "they hate our freedoms."

Rather, they say, a mood of resentment toward America and its behavior around the world has become so commonplace in their countries that it was bound to breed hostility, and even hatred.

And the buttons that Mr. bin Laden pushes in his statements and interviews - the injustice done to the Palestinians, the cruelty of continued sanctions against Iraq, the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, the repressive and corrupt nature of US-backed Gulf governments - win a good deal of popular sympathy...

'Why do they hate us?' / The Christian Science Monitor - CSMonitor.com
 

SirJosephPorter

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"But that is not a basic right."

Let's not get hung up on semantics, call them basic needs if you like. If these can not be fulfilled, then the "basic rights" become a moot point.

Why not semantics, JLM? Goober asked about basic rights, he did not say anything about needs. If you are talking of needs, then clearly food, water and shelter are more important, than freedom of speech, freedom of press etc.

But here we are talking of basic rights (to be bestowed by the state), and not basic needs.
 

earth_as_one

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Respect for fundamental human rights isn't just about helping others. It also has a selfish component. Desperate people do desperate things. If we deny people their fundamental human rights, they can reach of point of desperation where they have nothing to loose.

9/11 is an example of how committing atrocities, war crimes and crimes against humanity or turning a blind eye to them, can come back and bite us.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Respect for fundamental human rights isn't just about helping others. It also has a selfish component. Desperate people do desperate things. If we deny people their fundamental human rights, they can reach of point of desperation where they have nothing to loose.

9/11 is an example of how committing atrocities, war crimes and crimes against humanity or turning a blind eye to them, can come back and bite us.


Certainly. There are two instincts hardwired into human beings (or indeed, in any animal), the instinct of self preservation and the instinct of preservation of the species.

It is the second instinct that makes us help others. That is also the reason why most of us feel good when we help others. So yes, helping others is not completely altruistic.
 

lone wolf

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Nov 25, 2006
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Why not semantics, JLM? Goober asked about basic rights, he did not say anything about needs. If you are talking of needs, then clearly food, water and shelter are more important, than freedom of speech, freedom of press etc.

But here we are talking of basic rights (to be bestowed by the state), and not basic needs.


That is why human rights should never be decided by pampered nit-picky jerks.
 

darkbeaver

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Why not semantics, JLM? Goober asked about basic rights, he did not say anything about needs. If you are talking of needs, then clearly food, water and shelter are more important, than freedom of speech, freedom of press etc.

But here we are talking of basic rights (to be bestowed by the state), and not basic needs.

The ownership of speech and communications determines its relative freedom. Once these powers lie in private hands it isn't very long before all other human rights deteriorate in the favour of the ruling elite. So freedom of speech and its free distribution is essential to satisfying the requirements for life of any people. Communications is the very basis of freedom. You should review todays dismal state of free communications. It points directly to the shortages of all human necessities in the west, this is already in motion, we call it economic depression. That depression and the resultant deprivations are a direct result of the disappearance of free press and free journalism in the west. So free speech and free press lead the list of human necessities.