1895 school exam, are we dumb?

[SirJosephPorter]

There is altogether too much emphasis put on length of life vs. quality of life. Drugs are highly over rated. Sure there are times (I'm getting tired of repeating this) when drugs are wonderful, necessary for the treatment of type 1 diabetes and high blood pressure, but it's much better if people can get away from their reliance on drugs if at all possible by altering life style. If the Gov't. put as much money into promoting healthy lifestyles as they do on inventing another new drug, the popuation as a whole would be much healthier at much lower expense. My MD. in Grand Forks told me that if all healthy Canadians across Canada simply walked for one hour a day, health care costs for the Country would eventually be reduced to half.

Even if all of this is true, you are simply describing how a good situation may be made better. but the fact is, very few (probably not even you) would want to go back to the good old days, with no antibiotics and communicable diseases (typhoid, small pox, cholera, malaria etc.) widespread. Back to the days of unsafe drinking water (no fluoridization), poor refrigeration etc.

Or maybe you would, may be you are of the hardy, frontier type who thinks that people have it too soft these days. But I wouldn't (and I suspect neither would most people).

 

[Spade]

Hah! My grandmother could predict the weather by counting the stars within moondogs.

 

[Cliffy]

Even if all of this is true, you are simply describing how a good situation may be made better. but the fact is, very few (probably not even you) would want to go back to the good old days, with no antibiotics and communicable diseases (typhoid, small pox, cholera, malaria etc.) widespread. Back to the days of unsafe drinking water (no fluoridization), poor refrigeration etc.

Or maybe you would, may be you are of the hardy, frontier type who thinks that people have it too soft these days. But I wouldn't (and I suspect neither would most people).

Most people are afraid of death and illness, which makes them afraid of living too. The world is over populated, not because of too many people but too many lazy people who rely on drugs and machinery to keep them alive and dulled to real life. They live in an artificial world of air conditioning and drug induced stupor. Life is not better because of "medical science", it is just a prolonged existence in a diminished state of awareness.

A natural life may be shorter but it certainly is fuller. People who think technology has enhanced our life have never really lived.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Down_homewoman- You responded to a false premise there, you don't need a high level of formal learning today to get a "worthwhile" job (whatever the hell that is, if it needs doing it's worthwhile). What you do need is some practical learning some versatility and a few tools. With all this Union involvement today and journeyman's rates being through the roof, there is a huge demand for good workmanship where you can earn $25- $30 an hour. Today more than ever people are making their own jobs. An old pickup truck is a handy thing to have, people are always wanting stuff hauled. A lot of people are using wood burning stove these days, that provides all kinds of opportunties if you have a truck, a chain saw and a few tools and can talk smoothy enough to detour a certain amount of red tape. Talking about red tape, if you are not careful Revenue Canada can involve you in a lot of that- you just do what is necessary to "avoid" it without "evading" it. A lot of computer geeks make jobs for themselves and make use of their house and write off all kinds of stuff like a portion of their lights, phone, heat and property taxes. It goes on and on. But I can see S.J.'s point as there is the disadvantage that you don't necessarily get to put letters after your name.

JLM, what you (and Downhome Woman) are looking at are individual cases, and you are generalizing from that, that you can get a good job without a lot of formal education (community college, university etc.). You have to look at the overall pictures. Many people get bogged down into details and miss the overall picture.

When it comes to earning money, a college degree is a huge advantage, in spite of your journeymen, or people with pick up truck, chain saw etc. Let us look at some statistics.

Average salary of a high school graduate: 30,400 $ per year

Average salary of someone with bachelor’s degree: 52,200 $ per year.

Professional degree: 109,600 $ per year.

Getting a university degree gives you a huge advantage. What this tells me is that sure there are plumbers, journeymen who make good money, or you may know people with pick up trucks who earn into six figures. But such cases are few and far between. An overwhelming number of non graduates make a lot less money than university graduates do.

So the example you (or Downhome Woman) gave really doesn’t mean much. The figures here are average figures, so it follows that at the extremes of the spectrum, you will have some overlap, there may be a few (very few) non graduates who earn more than the graduates.

What about life time earnings?

Average earning of a high school graduate: 1.2 million $

Average earning of someone with bachelor’s degree: 2.1 million $.

Professional degree: 109,600 $ per year. – 4.4 million $.

So again you may know a few millionaires, who don’t even have a school education (and you may know a few graduates who are starving), but that means nothing. Such examples are rare; the norm is that a university graduate earns much more than a non graduate, both annually and in the lifetime.

I have said it before, many times, anecdotal evidence means nothing, it can be notoriously unreliable. One must look at the overall picture.

Job Salary Earnings Comparison - College Degrees and High School Diploma

 

[SirJosephPorter]

A natural life may be shorter but it certainly is fuller. People who think technology has enhanced our life have never really lived.

I don't think too many people will agree with you on that, Cliffy. Most people will go to extraordinary lengths to live longer.

 

[CDNBear]

 

[gerryh]

JLM, what you (and Downhome Woman) are looking at are individual cases, and you are generalizing from that, that you can get a good job without a lot of formal education (community college, university etc.). You have to look at the overall pictures. Many people get bogged down into details and miss the overall picture.

When it comes to earning money, a college degree is a huge advantage, in spite of your journeymen, or people with pick up truck, chain saw etc. Let us look at some statistics.

Average salary of a high school graduate: 30,400 $ per year

Average salary of someone with bachelor’s degree: 52,200 $ per year.

Professional degree: 109,600 $ per year.

Getting a university degree gives you a huge advantage. What this tells me is that sure there are plumbers, journeymen who make good money, or you may know people with pick up trucks who earn into six figures. But such cases are few and far between. An overwhelming number of non graduates make a lot less money than university graduates do.

So the example you (or Downhome Woman) gave really doesn’t mean much. The figures here are average figures, so it follows that at the extremes of the spectrum, you will have some overlap, there may be a few (very few) non graduates who earn more than the graduates.

What about life time earnings?

Average earning of a high school graduate: 1.2 million $

Average earning of someone with bachelor’s degree: 2.1 million $.

Professional degree: 109,600 $ per year. – 4.4 million $.

So again you may know a few millionaires, who don’t even have a school education (and you may know a few graduates who are starving), but that means nothing. Such examples are rare; the norm is that a university graduate earns much more than a non graduate, both annually and in the lifetime.

I have said it before, many times, anecdotal evidence means nothing, it can be notoriously unreliable. One must look at the overall picture.

Job Salary Earnings Comparison - College Degrees and High School Diploma

bullsh*t

 

[mt_pockets1000]

15 entrepreneurs who didn't need a college education.

15 Successful Entrepreneurs Who Didn’t Need College | College-Startup

 

[gerryh]

I don't know of a single red seal journeyman that would be willing to work for 30k a year. Maybe an apprentice.....but no journeyman anything..be it plumber, gasfitter, welder, automotive tech.......

 

[CDNBear]

I don't know of a single red seal journeyman that would be willing to work for 30k a year. Maybe an apprentice.....but no journeyman anything..be it plumber, gasfitter, welder, automotive tech.......

As a red seal, or journeyman, with a Quebec seal as well. I haven't made less then 50k in over 10 years.

 

[JLM]

JLM, what you (and Downhome Woman) are looking at are individual cases, and you are generalizing from that, that you can get a good job without a lot of formal education (community college, university etc.). You have to look at the overall pictures. Many people get bogged down into details and miss the overall picture.

There's two sides to all this- what you earn is on the left side of the equation, on the right side is such things as how you spend it.

 

[darkbeaver]

There's two sides to all this- what you earn is on the left side of the equation, on the right side is such things as how you spend it.

The first decade after graduation will be spent getting serviced by the accumulated debt of your university days, while working in China or India, if you can speak the language and your degree is recognized in the newly developed industrial zones, which is doubtful. All is not gloomy, the armed forces will need replacements and the degreed make dandy occifers.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

15 entrepreneurs who didn't need a college education.

15 Successful Entrepreneurs Who Didn’t Need College | College-Startup

As opposed to that, how many did have college education? What are the chances of a non graduate becoming an entrepreneur? What are the chances of a graduate, an MBA becoming an entrepreneur?

What you have given makes for an interesting read, but it doesn't really tell us if having a university or a college degree is an advantage when one is trying to become an entrepreneur.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

There's two sides to all this- what you earn is on the left side of the equation, on the right side is such things as how you spend it.

Now you are touching on something totally different, JLM. Most people concentrate on how much they are earning, very few pay attention to how much they are accumulating.

If a family earns 50,000 $ per year and spends 40,000 $, that family is much better off than another family earning 100,000 and spending 110,000.

I don’t know if you have read the book ‘The Millionaire Next Door’. It makes precisely the same point. It is written from the vantage point of a barber, who is a self made millionaire. It makes the point, getting rich quick is hard, practically impossible. However, most people could get rich slowly, they just don’t know how and lack the 3 Ds (discipline, dedication, desire).

Most people are focused on how much they earn, only a few look at how much they save, and even fewer pay attention to what is happening to the saved money (whether it is being invested properly).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

The first decade after graduation will be spent getting serviced by the accumulated debt of your university days, while working in China or India, if you can speak the language and your degree is recognized in the newly developed industrial zones, which is doubtful. All is not gloomy, the armed forces will need replacements and the degreed make dandy occifers.

That is the failing on the part of the parents, darkbeaver. I think parents should pay for the education of their children, they own the kids that much.

Our son will graduate from the medical school this year, we are paying for his education. He will become a doctor debt free. Now, perhaps that may be beyond the means of many parents, but I don’t think many parents even try to pay for their children’s education.

 

[mt_pockets1000]

First of all let me thank you SJP for not having me on your 'ignore' list. Better to face your opposition head on than hide behind that little button.

You're right, that list is not proof positive for one argument or the other. But it does highlight the fact that you don't need a college or university degree to make it in business.

My brother in law is another example. He made a killing in the fishery...long after the moratorium was in place. He quite college after two months to go head first into the east coast fishery. Some said he was nuts. But he knew otherwise.

I don't disagree that a post-secondary education will give you an advantage. But it's not necessary if you have the smarts to get ahead without it.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

First of all let me thank you SJP for not having me on your 'ignore' list. Better to face your opposition head on than hide behind that little button.

Why would I put you on the 'ignore' list? We haven't had any fights, bad blood or name calling between us. There are only three or four posters who are on my ignore list. As to opposition, you should know by now that I am not afraid of opposition.

You're right, that list is not proof positive for one argument or the other. But it does highlight the fact that you don't need a college or university degree to make it in business.

I quite agree, we read about such cases from time to time and admire them. Such examples tell you that you don’t necessarily need a university degree. At the same time, statistics tell us that that is not the preferred way to go (no university degree). Statistics tell us that it is much better to get a university education. Examples like you have given tells those who do not have one (for whatever reason) not to lose heart, but to try their best at what they are doing.

An analogy comes to mind is of single parenting. Suppose there is a housewife with two kids. All she has been doing is looking after her kids and her husband. Her husband takes care of everything else (earning money, investing, paying the bills etc.).

Now suppose her husband leaves her, gets a divorce (or dies). It would be useless to quote statistics at her, how she will have a much more difficult time of it raising two kids on her own. She deserves all the help and encouragement that one can give her.

At the same time, nobody should claim that that is a desirable state of affairs. It would be much easier to bring up the kids if her husband had been with her, or if she had a well paying job herself.

 

[ironsides]

That is the failing on the part of the parents, darkbeaver. I think parents should pay for the education of their children, they own the kids that much.

Our son will graduate from the medical school this year, we are paying for his education. He will become a doctor debt free. Now, perhaps that may be beyond the means of many parents, but I don’t think many parents even try to pay for their children’s education.

I have no idea what kind of world you live in, but all of my friends paid for their children's education. They all went into debt if needed, I know I did. It wasn't a option for the "Gen. X", they went to college. The Baby Boomers and the Greatest Generation took care of their children.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I have no idea what kind of world you live in, but all of my friends paid for their children's education. They all went into debt if needed, I know I did. It wasn't a option for the "Gen. X", they went to college. The Baby Boomers and the Greatest Generation took care of their children.

That is anecdotal evidence, ironsides (and yes, in our circle also most parents we know paid for their kids’ education). However, by and large, many parents do not pay for the children’s education. Otherwise why would there be such a big problem with student loans?

Many medical students graduate with a debt of 100,000 $ or more (the situation is worse in USA).

Anecdotal evidence is the worst form of evidence there is.

 

[TenPenny]

That is the failing on the part of the parents, darkbeaver. I think parents should pay for the education of their children, they own the kids that much.

Our son will graduate from the medical school this year, we are paying for his education. He will become a doctor debt free. Now, perhaps that may be beyond the means of many parents, but I don’t think many parents even try to pay for their children’s education.

My father, and others that I have met, had the idea that the parents would pay for the first degree. If you wanted to go on to law school, or med school, or a graduate degree of any kind, that was up to you.

I agree with that philosophy. Typically, people getting graduate degrees are working part time anyway.