1895 school exam, are we dumb?

[SirJosephPorter]

Yes, I know the definition of science and have for years. Being curious about stuff is all fine and dandy, but I have some trouble equating some scientists' "hobbies" with outlays of public money. And claiming that science is responsible for every good thing that has happened in the world (as we know it) is a bit over the top.

Really? My advice to you was to try to get the job as a consultant to your Messiah, but I change that. My suggestion to you would be that you try to become the PM (Cosnervaitve Party of course), so that you could cut off whatever meager funding Canada provides for basic research (it is only a 'hobby' after all). Of course the added bonus would be that you, with your method of focusing, will be able to cut the time required for other research projects from three year to one year.

You are attempting to point out that science trumps everything else in life, and I disagree. It's just one of the components. It deserves to be questioned just as much as anything else.

As far as economic prosperity, curing of diseases are concerned, it is science and technology which is responsible for that, not the politicians or the entrepreneurs, as you seem to think. Science and technology comes first, everything else, second.

You seem to have no problem crapping all over other peoples' thoughts and beliefs on everything from politics to religion/faith, so I feel quite justified in taking a critical and questioning view of the value of science in our society. What's wrong? Don't you think it can stand up to the scrutiny?

There is nothing wrong in questioning science, countryboy, scientists themselves do that all the time. However, to deny that science has been a force for tremendous good in the society, that it has been responsible for the economic prosperity that we enjoy, is a whacky and fringe belief, in my opinion. To me, to deny that science has been a force for good, has benefited humanity tremendously, that is on par with belief in UFOs or belief in God.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Yes I know...I was trying to be kind to you in not pointing out that - to the average person (who participate in the funding of it, apparently) - it is a useless pursuit. But you seem to want to draw attention to it.

So let me get this straight. You speak for the average person (that is similar to a politician claiming to speak for the common man) and you think that any money spent on basic research is wasted money?

All I can say is, humankind is lucky indeed that the governments in the developed world do not subscribe to that philosophy. If they did, we would still be at the subsistence farming level.

If you don’t know the value of basic research, that again demonstrates your bias against science. And why do you think you were kind in not pointing out to me that money on basic research was wasted money? That doesn’t reflect upon me, it reflects upon you. It shows your ignorance of how science works, how technology works, how scientific advances are made.

You are a classic example of why an average person should have no say when it comes to deciding science policy etc. And he doesn’t. Cutting off funding of research is the surest way to poorhouse.

 

[countryboy]

Really? My advice to you was to try to get the job as a consultant to your Messiah ,but I change that. My suggestion to you would be that you try to become the PM (Cosnervaitve Party of course), so that you could cut off whatever meager funding Canada provides for basic research (it is only a 'hobby' after all). Of course the added bonus would be that you, with your method of focusing, will be able to cut the time required for other research projects from three year to one year.

Now why would you want me to cut off funding? I thought you were in favour of it.

As far as economic prosperity, curing of diseases are concerned, it is science and technology which is responsible for that, not the politicians or the entrepreneurs, as you seem to think. Science and technology comes first, everything else, second.

Sure, I can see Pfizer Chemical just working away at researching drugs, just to give them away to people while being comforted by their expanded knowledge. I'd say they and the other big pharma boys are a very entrepreneurial group. Medicine is a business these days, SirJP.

There is nothing wrong in questioning science, countryboy, scientists themselves do that tall the time. However, to deny that science has been a force for tremendous good in the society, that it has been responsible for the economic prosperity that we enjoy, is a whacky and fringe belief, in my opinion. To me, to deny that science has been a force for good, has benefited humanity tremendously, that is on par with belief in UFOs or belief in God.

Who said it wasn't good? You shouldn't be so negative. I said it's not the only thing responsible for good things in life.

And there you go again, being disrespectful of others' beliefs with a very closed mind about the possibilities. Very unscientific.

 

[countryboy]

So let me get this straight. You speak for the average person (that is similar to a politician claiming to speak for the common man) and you think that any money spent on basic research is wasted money?

All I can say is, humankind is lucky indeed that the governments in the developed world do not subscribe to that philosophy. If they did, we would still be at the subsistence farming level.

If you don’t know the value of basic research, that again demonstrates your bias against science. And why do you think you were kind in not pointing out to me that money on basic research was wasted money? That doesn’t reflect upon me, it reflects upon you. It shows your ignorance of how science works, how technology works, how scientific advances are made.

You are a classic example of why an average person should have no say when it comes to deciding science policy etc. And he doesn’t. Cutting off funding of research is the surest way to poorhouse.

Sorry SirJP - Even a patient guy like me finds it difficult to respond to such a self-centred, raving fabrication. Please write back when you achieve some degree of control and can present something that is rational.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Sure, I can see Pfizer Chemical just working away at researching drugs, just to give them away to people while being comforted by their expanded knowledge. I'd say they and the other big pharma boys are a very entrepreneurial group. Medicine is a business these days, SirJP.

Again, these are mere details, countryboy. It is irrelevant whether Pfizer charges for their medicines or gives them away (and I own stock in Pfizer, so I sure hope they are not giving it away).

Look at the overall picture. Are the medicines more readily available compared to 100 years ago? They sure are. Do we have many more life saving medicines (antibiotics etc.) compared to 100 years ago? Again, yes. Are people living longer because of that? Yes.

That tells me that science has been a force tor tremendous amount of good.

 

[gerryh]

am I still on ignore sjp?

 

[gerryh]

I'll take the silence as a yes, I am still on ignore......no use wasting my time tearing him a new one.

 

[JLM]

Again, these are mere details, countryboy. It is irrelevant whether Pfizer charges for their medicines or gives them away (and I own stock in Pfizer, so I sure hope they are not giving it away).

Look at the overall picture. Are the medicines more readily available compared to 100 years ago? They sure are. Do we have many more life saving medicines (antibiotics etc.) compared to 100 years ago? Again, yes. Are people living longer because of that? Yes.

That tells me that science has been a force tor tremendous amount of good.

There is altogether too much emphasis put on length of life vs. quality of life. Drugs are highly over rated. Sure there are times (I'm getting tired of repeating this) when drugs are wonderful, necessary for the treatment of type 1 diabetes and high blood pressure, but it's much better if people can get away from their reliance on drugs if at all possible by altering life style. If the Gov't. put as much money into promoting healthy lifestyles as they do on inventing another new drug, the popuation as a whole would be much healthier at much lower expense. My MD. in Grand Forks told me that if all healthy Canadians across Canada simply walked for one hour a day, health care costs for the Country would eventually be reduced to half.

 

[Cliffy]

I'll take the silence as a yes, I am still on ignore......no use wasting my time tearing him a new one.

Tear him a new one anyway. It would be for your benefit. Holding that sort of thing in will cause cancer.;-)

 

[Downhome_Woman]

I did not say anything about your father or your grandfather. But do you deny that in the old days they had far fewer education opportunities than we do today?

Perhaps, that is why in the old days it was possible to get a good job without university education. These days one needs a university (or at least Community College) degree for any worthwhile job.

Just what do you feel are the 'old' days? and to a certain respect yes, there were fewer educational opportunities - there were quotas - ethnic, religious and gender - at institutes of higher learning. but do I think that education was generally less available/ why would I think that? In the end, one also has to ask as many have here, what constitutes a 'good' job? Is it a fulfilling job?
I was brought up in an era that told its children that if they were intelligent they went to university, if they were 'handy' they went to college.I spent a year at university but found that at the time I wasn't suited. Am I intelligent? I score at the upper end of the scale - in my fantasies, I inherit gazillions and spend my life as a permanent student - just studying for the sake of learning - but I digress.
Years later I went to another institute of higher learning - a community college. Yup - I'm brilliant, but I'm also handy. and guess what? A LOT of people there were people who had graduated from university (some held Masters Degrees) but found that they couldn't get those 'good' jobs. The good jobs were all going to those 'handy' people who were graduating from the community colleges.
and my grandparents and father? You didn't 'say' anything about them but you implied that they didn't further their education because it was not available to them. I maintained that it indeed was - they (like many, including myself) chose other routes - in spite of their obvious intelligence. Again, many intelligent people chose NOT to go to university = and many that you may consider to be 'merely average' actually have very fulfilling, rewarding jobs that benefit society.

 

[Downhome_Woman]

I hear ya JLM.

I've been an electrical technologist and designer for 13 years. I work hand in hand with electrical, mechanical and structural engineers, as well as architects. At any one time I can be working on 5-6 projects with a different engineer overseeing each one. Not one boss but 6. It's a real challenge.

A technologist can now achieve a Registered Professional Technologist (RPT) designation which allows you to stamp and sign engineered drawings. Finally, the industry is recognizing our contributions. You're right. We do the same work as an engineer and more. Too many times I've seen an engineer take credit for work that he hardly touched while I burn the midnight oil to put the drawings in his hands. And all because of those little letters after his name.

Exactly - all of these advances in science and technology have not been because of the work of one person - they have been the result of teams of people each contributing something crucial. And it is indeed that one person receives the credit most of the time - indeed doesn't even acknowledge the contributions of those who made his or her work possible.

 

[JLM]

Down_homewoman- You responded to a false premise there, you don't need a high level of formal learning today to get a "worthwhile" job (whatever the hell that is, if it needs doing it's worthwhile). What you do need is some practical learning some versatility and a few tools. With all this Union involvement today and journeyman's rates being through the roof, there is a huge demand for good workmanship where you can earn $25- $30 an hour. Today more than ever people are making their own jobs. An old pickup truck is a handy thing to have, people are always wanting stuff hauled. A lot of people are using wood burning stove these days, that provides all kinds of opportunties if you have a truck, a chain saw and a few tools and can talk smoothy enough to detour a certain amount of red tape. Talking about red tape, if you are not careful Revenue Canada can involve you in a lot of that- you just do what is necessary to "avoid" it without "evading" it. A lot of computer geeks make jobs for themselves and make use of their house and write off all kinds of stuff like a portion of their lights, phone, heat and property taxes. It goes on and on. But I can see S.J.'s point as there is the disadvantage that you don't necessarily get to put letters after your name.

 

[gerryh]

And it is indeed that one person receives the credit most of the time - indeed doesn't even acknowledge the contributions of those who made his or her work possible.

and that person would have the same personality as sjp.

 

[JLM]

Exactly - all of these advances in science and technology have not been because of the work of one person - they have been the result of teams of people each contributing something crucial. And it is indeed that one person receives the credit most of the time - indeed doesn't even acknowledge the contributions of those who made his or her work possible.

In my working days we had this important list taped to the wall, which I think encapsulates a few of the facts discussed here. It was titled

"The 6 Phases of a Project

1. Enthusiasm,
2. Disillusionment,
3. Panic and hysteria,
4. Search for the guilty,
5. Punishment of the innocent, and
6. Praise and honor for the nonparticipants.

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Down_homewoman- You responded to a false premise there, you don't need a high level of formal learning today to get a "worthwhile" job (whatever the hell that is, if it needs doing it's worthwhile). What you do need is some practical learning some versatility and a few tools. With all this Union involvement today and journeyman's rates being through the roof, there is a huge demand for good workmanship where you can earn $25- $30 an hour. Today more than ever people are making their own jobs. An old pickup truck is a handy thing to have, people are always wanting stuff hauled. A lot of people are using wood burning stove these days, that provides all kinds of opportunties if you have a truck, a chain saw and a few tools and can talk smoothy enough to detour a certain amount of red tape. Talking about red tape, if you are not careful Revenue Canada can involve you in a lot of that- you just do what is necessary to "avoid" it without "evading" it. A lot of computer geeks make jobs for themselves and make use of their house and write off all kinds of stuff like a portion of their lights, phone, heat and property taxes. It goes on and on. But I can see S.J.'s point as there is the disadvantage that you don't necessarily get to put letters after your name.

And i don't disagree with you here. Yes, the letters after the name help - big time - but again, what is a 'good' job? a 'worthwhile' job? My job is 'worthwhile' because i like it - it is something I like doing. I earn money. I make things that make others happy/content/satisfied. I earn money.Would my job satisfy SJP's criteria of being a 'worthwhile' job (and yes, before you even start SJP - I know you never used the term 'worthwhile job' but you certainly implied that intellectual people went to university and got jobs in the sciences - which I obviously haven't)? I doubt it. It's a 'handy' - a 'tradesman's' job. something someone gets at a community college - not a university.

 

[gerryh]

(and yes, before you even start SJP - I know you never used the term 'worthwhile job'

yes he did

These days one needs a university (or at least Community College) degree for any worthwhile job.

 

[JLM]

yes he did

That was the term that showed up on my screen under his name..............:lol::lol:

 

[countryboy]

And i don't disagree with you here. Yes, the letters after the name help - big time - but again, what is a 'good' job? a 'worthwhile' job? My job is 'worthwhile' because i like it - it is something I like doing. I earn money. I make things that make others happy/content/satisfied. I earn money.Would my job satisfy SJP's criteria of being a 'worthwhile' job (and yes, before you even start SJP - I know you never used the term 'worthwhile job' but you certainly implied that intellectual people went to university and got jobs in the sciences - which I obviously haven't)? I doubt it. It's a 'handy' - a 'tradesman's' job. something someone gets at a community college - not a university.

The definition of "worthwhile" certainly is in the eye of the beholder. Unless you're talking about science, and then you're not entitled to an opinion. Apparently, that is beyond reproach. Kind of like "hallowed ground", which sounds like an extreme form of religion to me.

The good news is, there are lots of scientists out there with large amounts of formal education but also have some common sense, open minds, and even personalities.

I've always thought that education doesn't make a person "smart" or worthwhile...what it does is allow them to absorb knowledge and learn how to do certain things. Formal education is kind of an introductory phase, to get things kick started. After that, gaining experience takes over and becomes a lifelong education.

Some people start with more formal education than others, and the sad thing is some of them think they know everything at the outset. That of course, retards the rest of the learning cycle (experience) which results in the know-it-all falling behind the pack. And that's not very worthwhile.

 

[JLM]

The definition of "worthwhile" certainly is in the eye of the beholder. Unless you're talking about science, and then you're not entitled to an opinion. Apparently, that is beyond reproach. Kind of like "hallowed ground", which sounds like an extreme form of religion to me.

The good news is, there are lots of scientists out there with large amounts of formal education but also have some common sense, open minds, and even personalities.

I've always thought that education doesn't make a person "smart" or worthwhile...what it does is allow them to absorb knowledge and learn how to do certain things. Formal education is kind of an introductory phase, to get things kick started. After that, gaining experience takes over and becomes a lifelong education.

Some people start with more formal education than others, and the sad thing is some of them think they know everything at the outset. That of course, retards the rest of the learning cycle (experience) which results in the know-it-all falling behind the pack. And that's not very worthwhile.

Well said. The really smart people (recognizing the irrelevance of it) don't yammer on about how "academic" they are.

 

[countryboy]

Well said. The really smart people (recognizing the irrelevance of it) don't yammer on about how "academic" they are.

Or, as Granny used to say, "If you're THAT good at something, you don't have to keep telling people...they'll already know it." I think there's a big lesson in there.

(Of course, if a person thinks they know everything, there is no need to pay attention to lessons like that. At that point, the learning process is dead.)