Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack


  • Total voters
    42

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Open question toEAO and MHZ


Were you guys at this conference -
I am sure you would have been welcome

Conference on Muslims in the media too hot for some of its speakers

Stouffville, Ont. -- Western media have a "spiteful policy" toward Iran of inventing "fraudulent" news to "increase false national expectation" and "encourage disturbance," according to the cultural attaché in the Embassy of the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Hamid Mohammadi said media deception has caused hatred and fear of Muslims by presenting the "false belief that religion is incapable of running a country" and that Iran is therefore illegitimate. He said the result has been political "position changing" by Western countries against Muslims. He quoted an "American thinker," whose name did not come clearly through his strong accent, to the effect that "future wars are in the hands of the media, and their words are more effective than bullets.

"Somehow, his brief remarks were among the least controversial at a conference about the "Media War on Islam" on Sunday at a Toronto-area Islamic centre,
in which the Christmas Day underwear bomber was described as the tool of an Israeli plot; Barack Obama was referred to as "Mr. Black Man"; al-Qaeda was called "the figment of the imagination of the West"; and a video was shown that mocked 9/11 by putting the Muppet Show logo over slow-motion footage of the second plane's impact, with screams of terror for audio.

With a police presence and protesters outside, the atmosphere was too hot for some of the speakers advertised in promotional material.

Lawyer Khurrum Awan, who brought hate speech complaints against Maclean's magazine with the Canadian Islamic Congress, agreed to speak some time ago, and called it "an error on my part" that he only learned about the other speakers a couple of days before the event. He said he cancelled primarily for fear that his presence could seem to justify the actions of the government of Iran, including its hosting of a 2006 conference on Holocaust denial.

Two leaders of the Canadian Arab Federation, Khaled Mouammar and Ali Mallah, did not respond yesterday to requests for comment about why they did not speak as advertised. Neither did James Clark, a prominent anti-war protester.

Inside the hall, among the audience of 300 or so, organizer Zafar Bangash welcomed his Iranian guest by quipping that, even with freedom of assembly, the protesters only managed to summon a "pathetic" two dozen to the rural roadside gates of the Islamic Society of York Region.

Mr. Bangash also held up for the audience a clear plastic bag full of what he said were burned pages of the Koran, rescued recently from the parking lot of a nearby plaza after protesters -- the same ones who were outside, he said -- set the holy book on fire.

He said he told police that if protesters were to trespass, "I guarantee nothing," to which the audience responded with chants of "Allahu Akbar."

The program started with a prayer from the Koran, sung beautifully by a boy in Arabic, and translated to English by another boy who, by his tone, clearly understood its message about the punishment of cities for their depravity.


In his speech, Mr. Bangash claimed the "Israeli-owned" International Consultants on Targeted Security runs security at Amsterdam airport, and therefore
"the Israelis are in control of security," and they allowed the alleged underwear bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, to board a Detroit-bound plane.

The company, on its website, states it is "not connected in any way" to security at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport.

An Iranian propaganda video, set to inspirational music, was a rapid-fire montage of still photos and videos, with militaristic and industrial themes, including footage of scientists at work, and a diagram of atoms labelled U238, the common naturally occurring kind of uranium; and U235, the fissile kind used in bombs.

The female narrator spoke about Iran's free elections, equality of women, and its "successful approach to the nuclear issue.

"The keynote speaker, given the absences, was Michael Keefer, a professor of literary theory at the University of Guelph, who said that all mainstream news media is "systematically fake" because "news editors have internalized the values of their advertisers."

He described 9/11 as a "planned demolition" run by Americans, and the Toronto 18 bomb plot, which led to convictions and guilty pleas, as a "police frame-up" over "nothing of significance."

He also offered a curious piece of gossip that shows Conrad Black's influence on Canadian media lingers long into his absence.

Begging the apology of Mohamed Elmasry, his partner at the Canadian Charger alternative media website, Prof. Keefer told the story of Mr. Elmasry writing to Lord Black to protest treatment of Islam in his many newspapers."Why don't you buzz off," was how Prof. Keefer paraphrased the handwritten reply.
"If you want a newspaper to reflect your opinions, why don't you start one of your own?"

"We have attempted to do just that," Prof. Keefer said.

The Canadian Charger is also the publisher of Prof. Keefer's forthcoming book, Anti-Semitism, Real and Imagined.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Yes, the momentum has swung behind the peace movement now. Thanks to Goldstone, AI and other NGO's, the peace movement has irrefutable proof that some Israelis have commited war crimes and crimes against humanity. We have pictures, satellite images, personal testimony by objective third parties... Now its up to us to make sure that people are aware of this information.

EAO
You still have not answered the question on why you are unsure that Israel has a right to exist - are you searching the Web for something that you can use as an answer - ensuring that it is not Anti Semitic of course

And what about the Jewish population of Israel - Do you have a solution for that?
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Why would you take exception to the truth? Most of what is said in that article is true as far as I can see - our media is nothing but a propaganda machine, not unlike theirs and has been manufacturing fear and hatred for decades. Their response is to be expected,a natural response to being demonized by our media. You can't really believe either side in this propaganda war.
 
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Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Why would you take exception to the truth? Most of what is said in that article is true as far as I can see - our media is nothing but a propaganda machine, not unlike theirs and has been manufacturing fear and hatred for decades. Their response is to be expected,a natural response to being demonized by our media. You can't really believe either side in this propaganda war.
Alice thru the rabit hole is also fact - Right.
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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Alice thru the rabit hole is also fact - Right.
You obviously don't understand the history of western interference in middle eastern politics and the true reason there is unrest and animosity over there. The theological thugs came to power because the west replaced their democratically elected government with the brutal dictatorship of the Shaw. I don't understand why that escapes you. It is pretty simple actually. It was a natural response. Armed insurrection always brings about a more brutal form of governance. Just look to the US and their revolution.

The US has been pissed off ever since their poster boy got kicked out of Iran and has waged a hate campaign ever since. You chose to believe their BS. That is your problem. I choose to believe neither side, as both are reactionary morons in a power struggle over oil, the use of which I would only be thrilled to see come to an end.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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You obviously don't understand the history of western interference in middle eastern politics and the true reason there is unrest and animosity over there. The theological thugs came to power because the west replaced their democratically elected government with the brutal dictatorship of the Shaw. I don't understand why that escapes you. It is pretty simple actually. It was a natural response. Armed insurrection always brings about a more brutal form of governance. Just look to the US and their revolution.

The US has been pissed off ever since their poster boy got kicked out of Iran and has waged a hate campaign ever since. You chose to believe their BS. That is your problem. I choose to believe neither side, as both are reactionary morons in a power struggle over oil, the use of which I would only be thrilled to see come to an end.
Cliffy
Simple questions and answers -
Agree or disagree

Somehow, his brief remarks were among the least controversial at a conference about the "Media War on Islam" on Sunday at a Toronto-area Islamic centre, in which the Christmas Day underwear bomber was described as the tool of an Israeli plot; Barack Obama was referred to as "Mr. Black Man"; al-Qaeda was called "the figment of the imagination of the West"; and a video was shown that mocked 9/11 by putting the Muppet Show logo over slow-motion footage of the second plane's impact, with screams of terror for audio.The Christmas day Bomber was an Israeli plot -

Agree - Disagree

Lawyer Khurrum Awan, who brought hate speech complaints against Maclean's magazine with the Canadian Islamic Congress, agreed to speak some time ago, and called it "an error on my part" that he only learned about the other speakers a couple of days before the event. He said he cancelled primarily for fear that his presence could seem to justify the actions of the government of Iran, including its hosting of a 2006 conference on Holocaust denial.


In his speech, Mr. Bangash claimed the "Israeli-owned" International Consultants on Targeted Security runs security at Amsterdam airport, and therefore "the Israelis are in control of security," and they allowed the alleged underwear bomber, Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, to board a Detroit-bound plane.

The company, on its website, states it is "not connected in any way" to security at Amsterdam Schiphol Airport.

Agree or Disagree

An Iranian propaganda video, set to inspirational music, was a rapid-fire montage of still photos and videos, with militaristic and industrial themes, including footage of scientists at work, and a diagram of atoms labelled U238, the common naturally occurring kind of uranium; and U235, the fissile kind used in bombs.The female narrator spoke about Iran's free elections, equality of women, and its "successful approach to the nuclear issue."

Agree or Disagree

Michael Keefer, a professor of literary theory at the University of Guelph, and the Toronto 18 bomb plot, which led to convictions and guilty pleas, as a "police frame-up" over "nothing of significance."

Agree or Disagree
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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Of course we did. :roll:
You really did. Taliban Rising. -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
"Though "Taliban" or "AGEs"--antigovernment elements-- are the catchall phrases used to describe Afghan insurgents, in provinces near Kabul like Logar, Wardak and Nangarhar, most of the guerrillas are actually members of Hezb-e-Islami, an old mujahedeen party led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. A pathologically ruthless commander, Hekmatyar got his start throwing acid at unveiled women when he was an engineering student in Kabul. In 1975 he formed Hezb-e-Islami with Pakistani support. First he fought the nationalist President Daoud Khan; then, after the Communist coup in 1978, he received more than $600 million in American military aid to fight the Russians."
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Goober,
"I choose to believe neither side, as both are reactionary morons in a power struggle over oil,"

The stance on both sides are buried in half truths and BS.
 

ironsides

Executive Branch Member
Feb 13, 2009
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You really did. Taliban Rising. -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
"Though "Taliban" or "AGEs"--antigovernment elements-- are the catchall phrases used to describe Afghan insurgents, in provinces near Kabul like Logar, Wardak and Nangarhar, most of the guerrillas are actually members of Hezb-e-Islami, an old mujahedeen party led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. A pathologically ruthless commander, Hekmatyar got his start throwing acid at unveiled women when he was an engineering student in Kabul. In 1975 he formed Hezb-e-Islami with Pakistani support. First he fought the nationalist President Daoud Khan; then, after the Communist coup in 1978, he received more than $600 million in American military aid to fight the Russians."

Of course he received money from us to fight the Russians, at that time we were in a hot/cold war with the Russians busy draining their economy. The acid idea I'm pretty sure was his.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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Goober,
"I choose to believe neither side, as both are reactionary morons in a power struggle over oil,"

The stance on both sides are buried in half truths and BS.
Cliffy
Not much of an answer -
Do you believe that the Iranian Elections were free and fair

Do you believe that the Toronto 18 was nothing but a frame job by Police

Do you believe that the Christmas Day Bomber was a tool of the Israeli's
 

EagleSmack

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Feb 16, 2005
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Do you believe that the Christmas Day Bomber was a tool of the Israeli's

Talk about throwing their Panty Bomber under a bus! He was one of their's and now they are calling him an Israeli Tool?

I hope someone tosses him the article and shows him what he burned his n***s off for.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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Quoting selin



yes ,they have right to exist a state not in the earth but in the moon, they shouldnt have neighbours around,*killing is very tiring ,*they deserved to be retired.

EAO
What about the Israeli people? In general, how do you feel about them? I read that Turkey is a popular Israeli tourist destination.



EAO

I am coming to the opinion that you voted unsure but in reality do not believe that Israel has the right to exist as do the Palestinians as sovereign States


selin makes a comment that Israel should not exist and you blow by this with a question about tourism -

Very impartial - Right -
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
The concept of "Israel as a state" needs more definition to broaden the debate. How can an undefined entity become a state. I think that clearly defined fixed borders would definitely assist in the determination of the noun "state" as in the case of the proposed state Israel. I'm confident that once the borders have been defined and the proper paper work put in order and signed by the six billion stake holders peace would reign supreme.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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The concept of "Israel as a state" needs more definition to broaden the debate. How can an undefined entity become a state. I think that clearly defined fixed borders would definitely assist in the determination of the noun "state" as in the case of the proposed state Israel. I'm confident that once the borders have been defined and the proper paper work put in order and signed by the six billion stake holders peace would reign supreme.

DB
You have to stay updated- The UN already voted for Israel as a State on Nov 29, 1947 - So that clears that little question up.

Israel declared independence on May 14th as approved by the UN and was promptly attacked -
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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DB
You have to stay updated- The UN already voted for Israel as a State on Nov 29, 1947 - So that clears that little question up.

Israel declared independence on May 14th as approved by the UN and was promptly attacked -
Then it is obvious that the UN is not united and that they did not take the consequences of their action into consideration.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Then it is obvious that the UN is not united and that they did not take the consequences of their action into consideration.


The UN United - never was - never will - a fools dream - a grand stage for lies and politics -
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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The UN United - never was - never will - a fools dream - a grand stage for lies and politics -
You are describing the world. Politics is a lie. The news is a lie. Education is a lie. There is nothing out there that can claim to be the truth any longer. It is all propaganda. That is why I never answered your questions. There is no true answer and the opinions I have heard on the subject are so varied that it is impossible for me to form an opinion on the subject. All I see is people dying and suffering over lies and BS. The only answer is love but there is very little of that around.
 

CDNBear

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Sep 24, 2006
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You are describing the world. Politics is a lie. The news is a lie. Education is a lie. There is nothing out there that can claim to be the truth any longer. It is all propaganda. That is why I never answered your questions. There is no true answer and the opinions I have heard on the subject are so varied that it is impossible for me to form an opinion on the subject. All I see is people dying and suffering over lies and BS. The only answer is love but there is very little of that around.
Do you know why that is Cliffy?

Complacency.

Pure and simple. People have become so lazy, that complacency is all that's left. The truth still exists, but you have to actually want to know the truth to find it. You won't find it in the news, that their brand of the truth. The lazy lap it up like a cat at a saucer of milk. You have to dig the truth out of the rubble.

Sometimes, even when the MSM have the truth, they fuk it up. Take for a simple example some of the photo's from Palestine, after the IDF retaliate against rocket attacks. In one series you can see a man digging a dead child from the rubble, in the next, you see the same man lying in the rubble, while the child he was digging is sitting there crying over him.

The MSM had this, but knew it wasn't going to get ratings, so they shelved it. People want rage or sorrow. Emotions sell air time.

This is the new war...