The Original Sin

[tracy]

And from everything I've been told, the infant baptism is to ensure that a child is done, clean, slate wiped, incase they die in those grey years between being a baby, and being old enough to consent to baptism. It's not about the state they are in at birth. One view.

What does an infant need to be cleaned of if not original sin? You yourself say "slate wiped", "cleaned". That implies they are born with something wrong or at the very least they could sin enough to lose the ability to enter heaven before they were old enough to consent to baptism. Otherwise, why would we be spiritually "cleaning" an infant? If the church set an age at which children were capable of sinning and baptised at that age, then I could see them arguing they don't think babies are born into sin. But, infant baptism is clearly in place to cleanse them of an impure state. It doesn't say babies commit sin or are personally guilty of sinning. It does say they are born in a state of sin, a separation from God, inherrited from Adam that is washed away through baptism.

One of my favorite people on our unit is Sister Mary. She's an older Irish nun, and an absolutely AMAZING human being. Even she will admit that a lot of the things Catholics believe, do and teach are not consistent with church doctrine or the bible. They need to comfort their flock after all and mercy and compassion are just as important to some of them as following church doctrine to the letter.

 

[tracy]

Catholicism in Canada seems a tad more relaxed than in the US.

And the rest of the world! The same could be said for the Anglicans, eh? I'm glad for it. I think it reflects the true message of Christ more genuinely than those who will only follow the letter of the church's laws but miss the spirit in which they were intended. The letter of the law comes straight from the Vatican, the spirit of the church is in the feelings and actions of its members.

 

[karrie]

What does an infant need to be cleaned of if not original sin? You yourself say "slate wiped", "cleaned". That implies they are born with something wrong or at the very least they could sin enough to lose the ability to enter heaven before they were old enough to consent to baptism. Otherwise, why would we be spiritually "cleaning" an infant? If the church set an age at which children were capable of sinning and baptised at that age, then I could see them arguing they don't think babies are born into sin. But, infant baptism is clearly in place to cleanse them of an impure state. It doesn't say babies commit sin or are personally guilty of sinning. It does say they are born in a state of sin, a separation from God, inherrited from Adam that is washed away through baptism.

Part of the problem we run into Tracy is old ritual melding with new thinking. And there just doesn't seem to be a vocabulary to explain all the changes. While the baptism is still often performed as a baby, and we hold that it is still essentially for the same reasons (thus my use of the terms), we don't hold to the old view that it's 'needed' on a baby, or that a baby is born sinful (let alone a child). But, it's the way it used to be done, so why worry about changing it?

 

[Nuggler]

Oh, **** me!!! More sinnin and stuff!!

More bullsh i t from the great church(es) to keep the peasants in line.

Whatever floats yer boat.

If I don't like it I don't gotta read it eh?? Right, Nugg, don't read it if you don't like it, eh.

:angry3k

 

[tracy]

Part of the problem we run into Tracy is old ritual melding with new thinking. And there just doesn't seem to be a vocabulary to explain all the changes. While the baptism is still often performed as a baby, and we hold that it is still essentially for the same reasons (thus my use of the terms), we don't hold to the old view that it's 'needed' on a baby, or that a baby is born sinful (let alone a child). But, it's the way it used to be done, so why worry about changing it?

Churches teaching that aren't towing the Vatican line, can we agree on that?

I think people worry about it because until the Vatican comes out and changes it, I will still have parents concerned their dead babies will not go to heaven. It's sort of a big deal to them. Their traditional view is still that the pope is infallible and anything coming out of the Vatican is LAW, end of story. I think we are very lucky to have someone like Sister Mary who has modernized with the times, just as your church obviously has. The Vatican is much less modern. They still teach that we are born into original sin and no one can know what fate awaits unbaptised babies in the afterlife because of it. They can only hope God will welcome them. It's not exactly a comforting message for parents of dead babies. I've personally lied to a family and told them we completed the baptism before the baby's death when I really can't be certain because I didn't want them to wonder about whether their baby made it to heaven or not. Hopefully that kind of thing won't be necessary if the Vatican ever comes out clearly on the issue.

 

[karrie]

Churches teaching that aren't towing the Vatican line, can we agree on that?

.... if the Vatican ever comes out clearly on the issue.

Sure, we can agree on that Tracy. That's part of the tricky bit about being a Catholic. The vatican doesn't necessarily always 100% of the time speak for all of its parishes let alone all of its members, despite what they like to think and bluster on about. It's been the history of the church that the Vatican has had to learn to bend with the times. Unfortunately, they're thick like bricks about most things and don't bend too easily. Don't count on fast change. :lol: But I still love it oddly enough, and wouldn't leave it for any other flawed human construct. I'll just spend my time trying to bend bricks I guess. lol.

 

[tracy]

But I still love it oddly enough, and wouldn't leave it for any other flawed human construct. I'll just spend my time trying to bend bricks I guess. lol.

I truly wish you all the best of luck with that Hopefully the Vatican will one day realise it needs to adapt with the times or will die off, just like anything else in the world.

 

[petros]

The "original sin" eh? How can god be all seeing and all knowing if he couldn't handle watching just two people? Logic would say that he is almost all seeing and almost all knowing but where does logic fit into religion? Logic it's self was the original sin since the sin was knowledge.

FASINATING huh?

 

[scratch]

Original sin teaches that we are born flawed, not born innocent. When I look at my babies at work I don't know how anyone could believe that.

I am with you on that tracy.

It's pure tripe.

rgs

 

[TenPenny]

Original sin teaches that we are born flawed, not born innocent. When I look at my babies at work I don't know how anyone could believe that.

In the words of Sarah McLaughlin: 'We are born Innocent...'

As my mother said, after the christening of my older brothers: "conceived in sin? What the ****? My children weren't conceived in sin, and this church can go to hell'

 

[scratch]

Smart woman!

 

[talloola]

In the words of Sarah McLaughlin: 'We are born Innocent...'

As my mother said, after the christening of my older brothers: "conceived in sin? What the ****? My children weren't conceived in sin, and this church can go to hell'

Good for you, see it like it is, our babies are truly innocent, there is no such thing as sin, just
a made up 'fear' word by the church to keep all of us in line, and obedient.
I'll never forget the day my two older daughters came home from catachism and announced to
us that, we are not really their parents, god is, with such serious faces, and they were dissapointed and looked at us like we had done something wrong, and hadn't told them this
news long ago.
That was the end of that tripe. We only sent them there because of my husbands parents, as they were catholic, and it made them feel good to know that their grandchildren were learning
about god.
Tough.

 

[TenPenny]

That's the whole point - organized religion relies on symbology, and some of the church leaders try to make it seem literal.

My mother was no fool, and had no patience for bs.

 

[Cliffy]

My mother was no fool, and had no patience for bs

I remember in the 60s, walking into a bathroom in some bar in Montreal and seeing scribbled on the wall above a urinal: "Eat s h i t. 2 billion flies can't be wrong".
It would seem that a lot of people on this planet have acquired a taste for it too.

 

[Jamirez]

What does an infant need to be cleaned of if not original sin? You yourself say "slate wiped", "cleaned". That implies they are born with something wrong or at the very least they could sin enough to lose the ability to enter heaven before they were old enough to consent to baptism. Otherwise, why would we be spiritually "cleaning" an infant? If the church set an age at which children were capable of sinning and baptised at that age, then I could see them arguing they don't think babies are born into sin. But, infant baptism is clearly in place to cleanse them of an impure state. It doesn't say babies commit sin or are personally guilty of sinning. It does say they are born in a state of sin, a separation from God, inherrited from Adam that is washed away through baptism.

One of my favorite people on our unit is Sister Mary. She's an older Irish nun, and an absolutely AMAZING human being. Even she will admit that a lot of the things Catholics believe, do and teach are not consistent with church doctrine or the bible. They need to comfort their flock after all and mercy and compassion are just as important to some of them as following church doctrine to the letter.

Why there should be original sin?

Is that because of Adam's fault?

Why God who is The Most Mercy God has to plan the sin seed just because of other guy's fault in thousand years ago? (I even never touch Adam's hand)

Baptism ha ha? You still have to die after baptism don't you?

Guaranteed to heaven? ... who can guarantee what happens after life? This all just cheap talking and theory!!!

To me, the main question is not about original sin, but Why We Must Die?

 

[Liberalman]

Jesus died because he sinned in the eyes of God.
This is why Christians view Jesus as God so he can be viewed as pure and without sin

 

[darkbeaver]

Sin#1 tree of knowledge, eviction from heaven before we got to sin #2 tree of life (immortality). The gods were capitalists and hated the thought of competition.

 

[taxslave]

A scam by churches to keep the ignorant pissants in line.

 

[darkbeaver]

Yes that bit of history has been employed by the various god merchants with,great success. However the story itself has more to do with the outcomes of ancient genetic science and the source of those genes.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Why there should be original sin?

Is that because of Adam's fault?

No, it is Eve’s fault; she is supposed to have led Adam astray. As least that is how the church justifies the second class status of women in Christianity. Because of Eve’s crime, God gave Adam the dominion over Eve; he gave Adam the right to boss over Eve.

The Church points to the Garden of Eden as the reason as to why a man is superior to the woman (and of course, several verses in the Bible to that effect).

The pain a woman suffers during childbirth is supposed to be Eve’s punishment for leading Adam astray. Indeed, during the Dark Ages in Europe it was forbidden to try to soften the child birth pain in any way, the woman must suffer the agonies of childbirth, as God’s punishment to Eve.