Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Does Israel have the right to exist with secure borders free from attack


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Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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Goober,

Most people can distinguish between Americans and American foreign policy. Most Arabs and Muslims don't hate all Americans. They just hate the criminals who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Personally I don't hate anyone. I just want criminals brought to trial and held accountable for their crimes, regardless of their nationality and religion.

I also want my country to stop unshakably supporting criminals. We used to have a reputation for being fair and just until we elected Harper.

So are you going to acknowledge and condemn Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity or continue being a hypocrite? See post #350

EAO

You are on a different freaking planet - do not refer me to one of your long winded posts - Please read the topic I posted -

Next - You are inclined to believe in a Jewish Controlled Media - What other Jewish hatred do you have that has not seen the light of day yet -

I am sure you can find your own post - it would be diametrically opposed to the point of good judgement -
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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DB

Please list the TV, Radio shows and book titles that are directed at hatred of Jews - To make it easy I will only hold you to Hamas and Hezbollah - The other Arab countries when you add the list up well you would need your own cray comp to hold the data

Guess who founded and funded the American Nazi Party goober? While your figuring that out gauge the size and scope of Arab media as opposed to Israeli media. They hate Israel goober, they would hate Israel if Israelis were a christian nation or a Buddist nation so stop hiding behind religious people who are not responsible for the situation Israel has put itself into. I know some Jews who hate Israel because of people like you who equate Israel and Jews as one and the same, some of them are very tired of the divisive ploy and actually recognize it as a form of terrorism directed at Jews by Israel.
 

darkbeaver

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Jan 26, 2006
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The thread topic is Israels right to exist it is not the certain and concrete right of Jews to exist. I hate and detest Israel, I love Jews however. I'm certainly not suggesting that you would use Jews to obscure the crimes of Israel.
 

MHz

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PetrosFunny you should mention that - In study after study and by one I recall the PEW Institute - stated thatwhile Anti US sentiment was high in Arab countries yet in these self same countries many dreamed of immigrating to the US - Why - freedom -
That's like asking a serf in medieval England being asked if he wants to go live in the Castle. Who wouldn't rather be the punisher than the punished? 53-78 setting the example in this case.
Nobody is saying sales of 'gadgets' sales would drop off. They just don't want the western porn that comes with broadband. First Iran needs N power so they don't have to use their exportable product to power all those little transformers that charge all the devices. Cooking shows and all bloopers. Turn those snow capped mountains into family retreats and even more income from the skiers worldwide. Sking to the beach in 1 hour. A few billion a year on a renewable resource, all that need is proper security to keep the unwanted westerns out of the family areas. The 1,001 Arabian Nights International Spa and Brothel. 10x the price and some restrictions apply. The locals collect your cash only, all guests and employees of said compounds are from the international community only and policed by international agencies on a rotating basis. Be sure to try the Bolivian tea #47.
That would bring in $20B / yr without any of the blackmail money being counted, just kidding the UN could track illegal activities via voluntary tracking inserts, removable (so they say) upon exiting the compound (flights or boats, no land access).
 

earth_as_one

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"Under the laws of war, individuals who willfully authorize or carry out deliberate or indiscriminate attacks against civilians are committing war crimes.

You can't even acknowledge that Israel carries out deliberate and indiscriminate attacks against civilians, let alone condemn Israel's war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Let me post them again:

The Mission found that, in the lead up to the Israeli military assault on Gaza, Israel imposed a blockade amounting to collective punishment and carried out a systematic policy of progressive isolation and deprivation of the Gaza Strip. During the military operation, houses, factories, wells, schools, hospitals, police stations and other public buildings were destroyed, with families, including the elderly and children, left living amid the rubble of their former dwellings long after the attacks ended, as no reconstruction has been possible due to the continuing blockade. Significant trauma, both immediate and long-term, has been suffered by the population of Gaza. More than 1400 people were killed. The Gaza military operations were directed by Israel at the people of Gaza as a whole, in furtherance of an overall policy aimed at punishing the Gaza population, and in a deliberate policy of disproportionate force aimed at the civilian population. The destruction of food supply installations, water sanitation systems, concrete factories and residential houses was the result of a deliberate and systematic policy to make the daily process of living, and dignified living, more difficult for the civilian population. Israeli forces also humiliated, dehumanized and carried out an assault on the dignity of the people in Gaza, through the use of human shields, unlawful detentions, unacceptable conditions of detention, the vandalizing of houses, the treatment of people when their houses were entered, graffiti on the walls, obscenities and racist slogans. The Israeli operations were carefully planned in all their phases as a deliberately disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorize a civilian population, radically diminish its local economic capacity both to work and to provide for itself, and to force upon it an ever increasing sense of dependency and vulnerability. Responsibility lies in the first place with those who designed, planned, ordered and oversaw the operations.

Israel failed to take feasible precautions required by international law to avoid or minimize loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects. The firing of white phosphorus shells over the UNRWA compound, the intentional strike at the Al Quds hospital using high explosive artillery shells and white phosphorous, the attack against Al Wafa hospital, were violations of international humanitarian law. The kinds of warnings issued by Israel in Gaza cannot be considered as sufficiently effective in the circumstances to comply with customary law. There were numerous instances of deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian objects (individuals, whole families, houses, mosques) in violation of the fundamental international humanitarian law principle of distinction, resulting in deaths and serious injuries. Israeli attacks were also launched with the intention of spreading terror among the civilian population. In several cases, Israeli armed forces did not allow humanitarian organisations access to the wounded and medical relief, as required by international law. In one incident investigated, involving the deaths of at least 35 Palestinians, the Mission found that Israeli forces launched an attack which a reasonable commander would have expected to cause excessive loss of civilian life. By deliberately attacking police stations and killing large numbers of policemen, most of whom were civilian non-combatants, Israel violated international humanitarian law.

The Mission found that Israel used white phosphorous, flechettes and heavy metal weapons. The use of white phosphorous, flechettes and heavy metal (such as tungsten) is restricted or even prohibited in certain circumstances. Flechettes, as an area weapon, are particularly unsuitable for use in urban settings while the Mission is of the view that the use of white phosphorous as an obscurant should be banned. The Mission also investigated several incidents in which Israeli armed forces used local Palestinian residents as human shields. Israel’s questioning of Palestinian civilians under threat of death or injury to extract information constitutes a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. Israeli forces in Gaza rounded up and detained large groups of persons protected under the Fourth Geneva Convention. Severe beatings, humiliating and degrading treatment and detention in foul conditions suffered by individuals in the Gaza Strip under the control of the Israeli forces and in detention in Israel, constitute a violation of international humanitarian and human rights law. Israel’s treatment of women during detention was contrary to the requirements of international law. Israel’s rounding-up of large groups of civilians and their prolonged detention under the circumstances described in the Report constitute a collective penalty and amounts to measures of intimidation or terror prohibited the Fourth Geneva Convention. Israel’s attacks against the Palestinian Legislative Council building and the main prison in Gaza constituted deliberate attacks on civilian objects in violation of international humanitarian law. Israeli armed forces unlawfully and wantonly attacked and destroyed without military necessity a number of food production facilities, drinking water installations, farms and animals. Israeli forces carried out widespread destruction of private residential houses, water wells and water tanks unlawfully and wantonly. Israel also disregarded the inviolability of United Nations premises, facilities and staff, and this is unacceptable.

Israel’s blockade of Gaza amounts to a violation of Israel’s obligations as an Occupying Power under the Fourth Geneva Convention. The deliberate actions of the Israeli forces and the declared policies of the Government indicate the intention to inflict collective punishment on the people of the Gaza Strip. Israel violated its obligation to allow free passage of all consignments of medical and hospital objects, food and clothing that were needed to meet the urgent humanitarian needs of the civilian population.

There is strong evidence that Israeli forces committed grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention in Gaza, including: willful killing, torture or inhuman treatment, willfully causing great suffering or serious injury to body or health, and extensive destruction of property. As grave breaches, these acts give rise to individual criminal responsibility. The use of human shields also constitutes a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. Israeli acts that deprive Palestinians in the Gaza Strip of their means of subsistence, employment, housing and water, that deny their freedom of movement and their right to leave and enter their own country, that limit their rights to access a court of law and an effective remedy, could lead a competent court to find that the crime of persecution, a crime against humanity, has been committed.

In the West Bank, with acts of violence by settlers against Palestinians (which have increased), Israel failed to protect the Palestinians, and sometimes acquiesced to the acts of violence. Israel used excessive force against Palestinian demonstrators, including the use of firearms, including live ammunition, and the use of snipers resulting in the deaths of demonstrators, in violation of international law. Israel has discriminatory “open fire regulations” for security forces dealing with demonstrations, based on the presence of persons with a particular nationality, violating the principle of non-discrimination in international law. Israel has failed to investigate, and when appropriate prosecute, acts by its agents or by third parties involving serious violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law. Israel’s removal of residential status from Palestinians could lead to virtual deportation and entail additional violations of other rights.

Israeli practices of detention of Palestinians in Israeli prisons before and during the military operations are generally inconsistent with human rights requirements. The practice of administrative detention by Israel contravenes the right not to be arbitrarily detained, and Israel’s use of secret evidence as a basis for the administrative detention is inconsistent with the ICCPR. The detention of members of the Palestinian Legislative Council by Israel is in violation of the ICCPR also constitutes an instance of collective punishment prohibited under article 33 of the GC IV. The same can be said about the massive detention of adults and children, often in inhuman or degrading conditions and without the guarantees required by international law.

Israeli checkpoints are often a site of humiliation. The extensive destruction and appropriation of property, including land confiscation and house demolitions in the West Bank including East Jerusalem, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly, amounts to a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions. The continued construction of settlements constitutes a violation of article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. As movement and access restrictions, the settlements and their infrastructure, demographic policies vis-à-vis Jerusalem and Area C of the West bank, as well as the separation of Gaza from the West Bank, prevent a viable, contiguous and sovereign Palestinian state from arising, they are in violation of the ius cogens right to self-determination.

The prolonged situation of impunity has created a justice crisis in the OPT that warrants action. Israel’s system of investigation and prosecution of serious violations of human rights and humanitarian law, in particular of suspected war crimes and crimes against humanity, has major structural flaws that make the system inconsistent with international standards. The few investigations conducted by the Israeli authorities on alleged serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law and, in particular, alleged war crimes, lack the required credibility and conformity with international standards. There is little potential for accountability for serious violations of international humanitarian and human rights law through domestic institutions in Israel.

Inside Israel, there has been intolerance for dissent against the war, the authorities placed obstacles in the way of protesters, there were instances of physical violence against protesters, and hostile retaliatory actions against civil society organisations by the Government. Activists were also compelled to attend interviews with the General Security Services. Israel’s denial of media access to Gaza and the continuing denial of access to human rights monitors are an attempt to remove the Government’s actions from public scrutiny and to impede investigations and reporting.

Palestinian armed groups have launched rockets and mortars into Israel since April 2001. Between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009, these attacks have left 4 people dead and hundreds injured, while causing terror, psychological trauma, and erosion of the educational, social, cultural and economic lives of the communities in southern Israel. For its part, Israel has not provided the same level of protection from rockets and mortars to affected Palestinian citizens as it has to Jewish citizens....
HYPOCRITE! You don't give a rat's ass that Israel commits war crimes or crimes against humanity. Everytime you post something in support of Israel, I'm going to post the above until you finally comment.

You either support fundamental human rights or you don't. Supporting them for some people and not supporting them for others, means you don't truly support them.
 
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Goober

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EAO

Me hypocritical - All I see from you and I respond accordingly is Israel War Crimes - You ignore Hamas, Hezbollah - and all those other Brigades with a number of differing names but one purpose - The total destruction of Israel -

I am not the hypocrite - care to respond about the so called Jewish Controlled Media??? I doubt it - You slipped up - and your credibility, small as it was is now in tatters -

So because you are so limited I will post my thread again for you -

Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

Does Israel have the right to a State that is free from attacks.

Does Israel have the right to secure borders.

I have seen how threads like this can become a rant and rave - yes I am guilty -

I will try to " play nice" as my friend Cliffy reminds me when I get somewhat out of hand - Thanks you Cliffy - We all need that now and again - So let us see if we can play nicely together and have a decent discussion - difference of opinion -

Do the Arab Countries have to Guarantee this ? If so how can it be enforced - UN Troops - Useless - Look at Lebanon and the smuggling by Hezbollah - the building of bunkers and rebuilding of strategic points - While the UN can do nothing.

Should Arab Countries accept a substantial number of the Palestinian ( Refugees) I do not consider the vast majority to be qualified as refugees as many of those present today in these camps, the fathers and mothers left Israel on the advice of Arabs that were planning to destroy Israel and murder Jews. The Genocide never happened because Israel won the War.

What will the Arabs do when Hamas, Hezbollah and other extremists - (Terror Groups that want the total cleansing ( by any means possible) of Jews from Greater Palestine)- groups within the borders of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon attack Israel with rockets supplied by Iran or others - Who will they arrest these terrorists - Likely answer is No One. Would you trust Arab Guarantees?

Jerusalem - Should it be a divided capital - If so why - Jordan had the rights prior to the 67 war to Jerusalem and gave the rights up later- Jordan purged Jerusalem of Jews when to captured part of Jerusalem.

Also - War Crimes have been committed by Both Israeli's and Palestinians

You have not answered one of these question -

So was the way i presented this in error - Was it biased?
 

petros

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That would look great with my Uzi , khakis, sandals and Raybans.

I could look like a Jewish Puerto Rican coke dealer.
 

MHz

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The thread topic is Israels right to exist it is not the certain and concrete right of Jews to exist. I hate and detest Israel, I love Jews however. I'm certainly not suggesting that you would use Jews to obscure the crimes of Israel.
I'll go as far as saying I would protect a Jew not in violation of Christ's Law. Then again that would include 'just' people from the whole of the Gentiles also. That you will have a preferred place above the Gentiles (they are complete in number before the Gentiles are complete in number) is no excuse for deliberate bad manners before that day.
If you are worried that a few Jews could use a 'loop-hole' to escape punishment the ones deserving correction before the start of the end can be sent to the same hell that will see Gentiles enter when He returns. The ones that abuse their position (of being from the chosen people) during the last few years might get extra punishment ... depending how Christ applies this verse. Killing a Christian or just killing with the expectation that it will be forgiven makes it just the opposite, it won't be forgiven.
If that is applied to the (for sure saved 12 Tribes) then it could cancel that 'free pass'..... and then some.
That would be worth being correct just to see the expression on their face when they find the lake is to be their home (close is enough). The best part is it includes all that called her friend.
Re:18:6:
Reward her even as she rewarded you,
and double unto her double according to her works:
in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

And no that is not called the Blessed Hope. It just plugs a possible 'short cut' in where man thinks he has the upper hand over God by using his own words against Him. They will learn why they call Him God.

PS I once said that the title God only meant when you are God you don't need a fancy name. Several posts go by and the only comment was "boo, hiss". I assume God found that as funny as I did. I have no idea why I told you that. lol. Perhaps it is the new batch of Haitian Arctic Rum, distilled with pure Canadian Reindeer dung (dehydrated and all natural), cheers till next cup. Just listen to how the Jamaican's are screeching about it's unique properties that calm you down for extended period of time. Only side effect is an inability to lose track .... of anything ..... for long periods of time. It could have something to do with the filtering system for the water imported water from various South American Countries. Oddly enough the water from American controlled Columbia is the worst seller when chosen by the (literal) consumer.
The proposal by one Canadian to choke somebody until they felt the 'effects of high altitude sickness' and then feeding them the cure (any of the Bolivian tea blends as long as it is in massive quantities) is still under 'investigation by the life insurance companies and criminal court system for some reason.
 
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Machjo

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To the OP:

Here's my take on Israels right to exist as a state:

1. The UN should never created the state of Israel. Just look at the history of how it was crated.

2. Now that the state of Isreal does exist and has been recognized in international law, and that many have moved there, have been born there, etc. it's not so easy to just erase Isreael off the map, so I'd say that, though it should never have come into being, it should be allowed to exist now that it's been officially recognized.

3. Though Isreal should have a right to exist, it should also remain within the borders the UN had granted it in the beginning and respect UN resolutions. It's the same Un laws that brought Isreael into existance in the first place, so the least Israel could do to show its appreciation is to withdraw back within the borders given it originally.
 

MHz

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2. Now that the state of Isreal does exist and has been recognized in international law, and that many have moved there, have been born there, etc. it's not so easy to just erase Isreael off the map, so I'd say that, though it should never have come into being, it should be allowed to exist now that it's been officially recognized.
How much back $$$ should 6 M Palestinians be entitled too? How about future rental payments, how many $B/yr?
 

Machjo

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Now a point about Israeli settlers.I'm happy the Israeli government has started to roll back some of the settlements it's created in preparation to hand those lands over to the Palestinians. However, I think Hamas and the Hezbollah could show some compassion to these settlers who are really just victims of the political shenanigans of the Israeli state by offering them the option to stay as Palestinian citizens. If they could officially offer this option to the Israeli government, then the Israeli government, instead of having to force these settlers off of the settlements the government sent them to in the first place, it could then offer them the option of staying on condition that they're willing to accept Palestinian citizenship. This would just be a sign of Allahi'l-Rahmani'l-Rahim (God, the Compassionate, the Merciful) that Hamas and the hezbollah purport to belive in.

While the Israeli government is to blame for the creation of these settlements, Hamas and Hezbollah have it in their power to allow these settlers to remain if they wanted to under a Palestinian state.
 

Colpy

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How much back $$$ should 6 M Palestinians be entitled too? How about future rental payments, how many $B/yr?

NONE and NONE.

Simple, really.

It cancels itself out.........as many Jews kicked out of Arab countries as Arabs that left Israel.......except most of the Arabs left at the urging of their Arab "brothers".......but we'll let that go.......
 

Machjo

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How much back $$$ should 6 M Palestinians be entitled too? How about future rental payments, how many $B/yr?

And who should pay for those rental payments. It's not so easy to calculate. Should it be the poor Jew who moved to Israel who escaped persecution from elsewhere? What about the Arab Israeli whose family lived there even before the State of Israel was created? The Arab Israeli Jew? The Arab Israeli Christian or Muslim or Atheist? What about the Hebrew Muslim convert? Or the Christian convert from Judaism? Or the Hebrew atheist? What about the child born to a mixed Hebrew-Arab family?

I'm not opposing your idea completely, but just pointing out that it would be next to impossible for the government to figure out who specifically should foot the bill for this. It never should have happened, but many of those alive when the State of Israel was created have long passed away, and their children have inherited a mess.
 

earth_as_one

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EAO

Me hypocritical - All I see from you and I respond accordingly is Israel War Crimes - You ignore Hamas, Hezbollah ...
eao: Then you must not have read this post:
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/i...-israel-right-exist-state-17.html#post1215198

I have made numerous posts like that.


I am not the hypocrite - care to respond about the so called Jewish Controlled Media??? I doubt it - You slipped up - and your credibility, small as it was is now in tatters -

I never said this. Good luck finding a quote. I have said that Canada's main stream media has a pro-Israel bias. That's easy to prove. I can find many examples where the our media only quotes Israeli sources or only interviews Israelis, with no Palestinian rebuttal. You'd be hard pressed to find them even quoting or interviewing Palestinian sources and even harder pressed to find them doing this without an Israeli rebuttal.

So because you are so limited I will post my thread again for you -

Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

As I already said on page 1 or 2 of this string, Israel still hasn't met the original conditions for UN recognition. Until then, Israel is in breach of its agreement. IMO, Israel should have its UN recognition revoked and their status at the UN downgraded to the same as Palestine... observer status. I will support Israel's inclusion into the UN when Israel finally becomes a "peace-loving nation" and abides by the agreed terms for UN recognition.

Does Israel have the right to a State that is free from attacks.
I don't support violence. That said, International law supports the right of victims of war crimes and crimes against humanity to resist violently.
Does Israel have the right to secure borders.
Israel has just s much right to secure borders as Palestinians, Lebanese and Syrians. Israel continues to violate Lebanon's borders on a daily basis with their military overflights.
I have seen how threads like this can become a rant and rave - yes I am guilty -

I will try to " play nice" as my friend Cliffy reminds me when I get somewhat out of hand - Thanks you Cliffy - We all need that now and again - So let us see if we can play nicely together and have a decent discussion - difference of opinion -

Do the Arab Countries have to Guarantee this ? If so how can it be enforced - UN Troops - Useless - Look at Lebanon and the smuggling by Hezbollah - the building of bunkers and rebuilding of strategic points - While the UN can do nothing.
Israel has repeatedly violated Lebanon's borders. I don't support Hezbollah, but I do recognize that they were responsible for driving Israel out of Lebanon in 2000 and again in 2006. Hezbollah was created in 1985, 3 years after Israel invaded and occupied Lebanon. Hezbollah is a negative consequnce of Israel's agressive and expansionist policies against Lebanon.
Should Arab Countries accept a substantial number of the Palestinian ( Refugees) I do not consider the vast majority to be qualified as refugees as many of those present today in these camps, the fathers and mothers left Israel on the advice of Arabs that were planning to destroy Israel and murder Jews. The Genocide never happened because Israel won the War.

That's a ridiculous statement. Genocide does not depend on which side wins. I'm not of the opinion that Israel committed genocide in 1947-48. I have said repeatedly that Israel practices ethnic cleansing and they still do. Its going on right now in Jerusalem and the West Bank. This only even I can think of where some Israeli soldiers are guilty of genocide:
...there were women lying in houses with their skirts torn torn up to their waists and their legs wide apart, children with their throats cut, rows of young men shot in the back after being lined up at an execution wall. There were babies - blackened babies babies because they had been slaughtered more than 24-hours earlier and their small bodies were already in a state of decomposition - tossed into rubbish heaps alongside discarded US army ration tins, Israeli army equipment and empty bottles of whiskey...

SABRA AND SHATILA By Robert Fisk
That "incident" was genocide and I hold Israel General Ariel Sharon responsible.



What will the Arabs do when Hamas, Hezbollah and other extremists - (Terror Groups that want the total cleansing ( by any means possible) of Jews from Greater Palestine)- groups within the borders of Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon attack Israel with rockets supplied by Iran or others - Who will they arrest these terrorists - Likely answer is No One. Would you trust Arab Guarantees?

When these groups actually commit ethnic cleansing, then I'll condemn it the same way I condemn actual Israeli ethnic cleansing. Until then, I consider them threats, and given Israel absolute military dominance, they are empty threats at best.

Jerusalem - Should it be a divided capital - If so why - Jordan had the rights prior to the 67 war to Jerusalem and gave the rights up later- Jordan purged Jerusalem of Jews when to captured part of Jerusalem.

Also - War Crimes have been committed by Both Israeli's and Palestinians

Wow! As far as I know, that's the first time you acknowledged that Israelis have committed war crimes. Can you take another step and condemn an Israeli war crime.

Also, do you believe all war criminals should be held accountable for their actions. For example, if an Israeli war criminal entered Canada, would you support their arrest? I support arresting Palestinian war criminals. If any Palestinian war criminal set foot in Canada, I'd support throwing them in jail and extradicting them to the Hague. I feel exactly the same way regarding Israeli war criminals. However, I doubt any Israeli war criminals entering Canada would ever see the inside of a prison. More likely they'd get the same treatment as George Bush, given Harper's unshakable support for Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.


You have not answered one of these question -

So was the way i presented this in error - Was it biased?

I'm sure the above post was difficult for you. I'll lay off for a while.

By the way here is a list of Palestintian war crimes as per the Goldstone report:

Palestinian armed groups have launched rockets and mortars into Israel since April 2001. Between 27 December 2008 and 18 January 2009, these attacks have left 4 people dead and hundreds injured, while causing terror, psychological trauma, and erosion of the educational, social, cultural and economic lives of the communities in southern Israel. For its part, Israel has not provided the same level of protection from rockets and mortars to affected Palestinian citizens as it has to Jewish citizens.

In firing rockets and mortars into Southern Israel, Palestinian armed groups operating in the Gaza Strip failed to distinguish between military targets and the civilian population and civilian objects in Southern Israel. Where there is no intended military target and the rockets and mortars are launched into civilian areas, they constitute a deliberate attack against the civilian population, which would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity. The rocket and mortars attacks have caused terror in the affected communities of southern Israel, causing loss of life and physical and mental injury to civilians as well as damage to buildings and property. Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit meets the requirements for prisoner-of-war status under the Third Geneva Convention and should be protected, treated humanely and be allowed external communication. The Mission found no evidence to suggest that Palestinian armed groups in Gaza either directed civilians to areas where attacks were being launched or that they forced civilians to remain within the vicinity of the attacks. The Mission also found no evidence that members of Palestinian armed groups engaged in combat in civilian dress. In the one incident the Mission investigated, of an Israeli attack on a mosque, the Mission found that there was no indication that that mosque was used for military purposes or to shield military activities.

The Gaza authorities carried out extrajudicial executions, arbitrary arrest, detention and ill treatment of people, in particular political opponents, which constitute serious violations of human rights. The Palestinian Authority’s actions against political opponents in the West Bank also constitute violations of human rights. Detentions on political grounds violate the rights to liberty and security of person, to a fair trial and the right not to be discriminated against on the basis of one’s political opinion. Reports of torture and other forms of ill treatment during arrest and detention require prompt investigation and accountability. Finally, conflict between Fatah and Hamas is having adverse consequences for the human rights of the Palestinian population.

Absolutely I support arresting the people responsible for these war crimes.
 

MHz

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While the Israeli government is to blame for the creation of these settlements, Hamas and Hezbollah have it in their power to allow these settlers to remain if they wanted to under a Palestinian state.
What about paying yearly rent, whole settlement plus toll road access to the 'gated' communities.?(gates within the settlement itself) The some 400 missing Arab villages would have to be cash only, Baghdad got a few pallets, every Palestinian would get an unlimited personal ATM card with internet shopping, free delivery on all items.
 

Machjo

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Another comparison could be made with Nazi Germany. Don't forget, there was a German resistance at the time, and many Germans had been victims of their own government, and so essentially were just as much victims of the Nazis as anyone else. So should post-war Germany have been forced to foot the bill to rebuild Europe because of its government?

Looking at it that way, many of the citizens of Israel don't necessarily agree with their own government, and are just tax-paying pawns in all of this themselves. So why should they foot the bill any more than post-war Germany should have?
 

Machjo

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What about paying yearly rent, whole settlement plus toll road access to the 'gated' communities.?(gates within the settlement itself) The some 400 missing Arab villages would have to be cash only, Baghdad got a few pallets, every Palestinian would get an unlimited personal ATM card with internet shopping, free delivery on all items.

Seeing that those settlements the Israeli government is trying to dismantle are beyond Israel's internationally recognized legal boundaries anyway, and considering that the purpose for dismantling these settlements is to prepare for handover to Palestine, it won't be long before Palestine would have factual control over these territories. So by allowing those settlers to remain there and not have to have their lives uprooted again, they would be subject to the same laws and taxes as any other Palestinian citizen? What more would you want?
 

Machjo

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And if those settlers don't agree to that, then they could be forcibly deported back to Israel. But at least Hamas and Hezbollah could give them the option. After all, they've been screwed over once already by being relocated to these settlements by the Israeli government. Now they're being screwed over again by being forced to move back to Israel. Talk about bouncing around.
 

Colpy

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Earth as One, you need to get over it. NO Israeli is ever going before the ICJ for war crimes, and (up to this point) none should.

The same for Palestinians.....none are going to any pie-in-the-sky court for trial any time soon......and that is how it should be.

So, here is the simple concept. Israel IS, it is a nation, not to mention a democratic nation, an advanced nation, with every right to defend itself. All your moaning and going on does not change the fact that the nation of Israel exists.

IF (and a damned big IF it is) the Arabs in the formerly occupied territories stopped attacking Israel......what would happen? Realistically.......what would happen?

Peace....not perfect peace, because Israeli settlers have an indecent habit of misbehaving in very nasty ways.......but much more peace than there is now. In fact, had Hamas not taken control in Gaza, there would be NO Israeli settlers anywhere in the West Bank or Gaza.....but I digress....

If Israel stopped attacking its enemies....what would happen??? Realistically, what?

War. Terror.......attacks by Hamas, by Hezbollah, both of whom wish to destroy Israel, and Hezbollah, at least, who wants to kill every Jew on earth.

So.....who do we support??

Simple as that.

Israel.