Israel - The Right to exist as a State?

[darkbeaver]

You give up too easily, Beave. Chaos and genocide (not that I'm agreeing that's an accurate description) happen for reasons.

Oh no you don't. They happen through cause, which leads any reason, not to be confused with aspiration. Reason or lack thereof is proved post event, following the scientific method. Now since there has been no resolving event that we may examine as evidence of reason or aspiration we can only comment on trends in the case of the matter in question. The trend of shrinking Palestinian assets would seem to indicate A/spontaneous abandonment by Palestinians or B/theft by Israelis. Now we may inquire as to the reasoning behind transfers of ownership.

 

[Goober]

Open question

I see The statement by Canaduh as clearly Racist - Am I wrong, right or prejudiced?

CanaduhYour quote "the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card".


The Native American "holocaust" happened before the media could latch onto it, not to mention the fact they dont own the media like the jews do. Every time the Israels do something or someone speaks out against them they play the holocaust get out of jail free card.

 

[darkbeaver]

The case for racial status for the Jews has been disallowed by Israelis who regularly import black Jews and Light brown Jews and Indian Jews. Racism is being confused with common discrimination at best.

 

[Spade]

Judaism is a religion, not a race.

 

[darkbeaver]

SwhatIsaydmon!

 

[earth_as_one]

Straw man fallacy; I said no such thing.

I was refering to this comment:

...This conflict has been going on in various forms not since 1947, but since Old Testament times...

Which is not true. The Israel/Palestine conflict has only been going on since 1947, when Zionists started an ethnic cleansing war.

The roots of modern Zionism only go back to the late 1890's:

Der Judenstaat (German, "The State of the Jews") is a book written by Theodor Herzl and published in 1896 in Leipzig and Vienna by M. Breitenstein's Verlags-Buchhandlung. It is subtitled with "Versuch einer modernen Lösung der Judenfrage", "Proposal of a modern solution for the Jewish question", and originally called "Address to the Rothschilds" referring to the Rothschild family banking dynasty which was very influential in the realization of a Jewish state in Eretz Yisrael.[1] It is considered one of the most important texts of early Zionism. As expressed in this book, Herzl envisioned the founding of a future independent Jewish state during the 20th century. He argued that the best way to avoid anti-Semitism in Europe was to create this independent Jewish state. Herzl, who had lived as a secular, largely assimilated Jew, was fluent in neither Hebrew nor Yiddish. His lack of contact with Jewish culture and intellectual currents, and his limited contact with Jews less assimilated than he prior to hitting upon the idea of a Jewish return to Zion, led him to imagine that popular Jewish support for a Jewish State elsewhere than in Palestine was conceivable. In Der Judenstaat, Herzl noted the possibility of a Jewish state in Argentina....

Der Judenstaat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I doubt Herzl and the majority of other early Zionists would approve of Israel in its current form.

Herzl wrote a book Altneuland, which describes what he envisioned:

...Herzl envisioned a Jewish state which combined both a modern Jewish culture with the best of the European heritage. Thus a Palace of Peace would be built in Jerusalem, arbitrating international disputes—but at the same time the Temple would be rebuilt, but on modern principles. He did not envision the Jewish inhabitants of the state being religious, but there is much respect for religion in the public sphere. Many languages are spoken—Hebrew is not the main tongue. Proponents of a Jewish cultural rebirth, such as Ahad Ha'am were critical of Altneuland.


In Altneuland Herzl did not foresee any conflict between Jews and Arabs. One of the main characters in Altneuland is a Haifa engineer, Reshid Bey, who is one of the leaders of the "New Society", is very grateful to his Jewish neighbors for improving the economic condition of Palestine and sees no cause for conflict. All non-Jews have equal rights, and an attempt by a fanatical rabbi to disenfranchise the non-Jewish citizens of their rights fails in the election which is the center of the main political plot of the novel.[8] Herzl also envisioned the future Jewish state to be a "third way" between capitalism and socialism, with a developed welfare program and public ownership of the main natural resources and industry, agriculture and even trade organized on a cooperative basis. He called this mixed economic model "Mutualism", a term derived from French utopian socialist thinking. Women have equal voting rights - as they did have in the Zionist movement from the second Zionist Congress onwards.

Altneuland was written both for Jews and non-Jews: Herzl wanted to win over non-Jewish opinion for Zionism.[9] When he was still thinking of Argentina as a possible venue for massive Jewish immigration, he mentioned in his diary he wrote that land was to be gently expropriated from the local population and they were to be worked across the border "unbemerkt" (surreptitiously), e.g. by refusing them employment.[9] Herzl's draft of a charter for a Jewish-Ottoman Land Company (JOLC) gave the JOLC the right to obtain land in Palestine by giving its owners comparable land elsewhere in the Ottoman empire....

Theodor Herzl - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If Zionists remained true to the Herzl's original vision, I'd support Zionism. Unfortunately, Herzl's utopian dream of a peaceful and tolerant Jewish state turned into a dystopian nightmare of violence, war and ethnic cleansing.

Since I don't support war crimes, crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing, I don't support Zionism in its current form. People who support Zionism today, effectively support war crimes, crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Oh no you don't.

Yes I do. You don't appear to know the difference between reason in the sense of logic, and reason in the sense of an explanation.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I was refering to this comment:


Which is not true.

Yes it is. The ancestors of today's Jews took over that territory by force of arms in biblical times and the scrapping has been going on ever since. Not constantly, I agree, but pretty steadily. You're focusing on Zionism specifically, I'm talking about ethnic and internecine conflict in that area more generally, which has indeed been going on for thousands of years.

 

[Johnnny]

What was the name of the guy who conquered that area for israel, called david or solomon? im just curious i cant remember

 

[EagleSmack]

I was refering to this comment:


Which is not true. The Israel/Palestine conflict has only been going on since 1947, when Zionists started an ethnic cleansing war.

Really? They aren't doing a very good job then are they?

 

[ironsides]

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile. A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses. When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath!' He removed his clothes, put them aside on
the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his
clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.' The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there then.'
The Israeli representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.

 

[Liberalman]

I disagree and think Israel should be held to their agreement.

Also this statement is another common misperception:

In 1967 Israel attacked their neighbors without warning. Israel initiated that war, not its neighbors. I suggest you read up on it:

It wasn't exactly a sneak attack since tensions had been escalating in the region for some time. But Israel initiated that war without without warning. Israeli apologists have distorted the facts regarding the 1967 war from a Pearl Harbor like attack into some sort of self defense.

Most of what people commonly believe about Israel/Zionism is not actually true. The more you dig into Israel's history, the more you discover that many commonly held beliefs regarding this conflict are actually manipulated misperceptions.

Sorry don't agree what has been fought for stays.

Maybe you should convince the Americans to give back the land to the British, Mexico and the Indians that will never happen so all Palistinians have to lay down their weapons and Israel will take them in and everybody wins

 

[MHz]

Really? They aren't doing a very good job then are they?

8O
So if the history books show 10M Palestinians were all killed off in 10 years then that would be a genocide, but if 15 M are killed off in 100 years then it is not a genocide, even though they crease to exist as a people?

Surely you wouldn't people to start claiming the Jews still had more than half their population alive after WWII so that was not really a genocide, what they suffered was more like a massacre . The missing tribes of Indians in the Americas would define what genocide looks like, the greatly reduced in numbers would be a testament to what a massacre looks like.

An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly and made the world community smile. A representative from Israel began: 'Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about Moses. When he struck the rock and it brought forth water, he thought, 'What a good opportunity to have a bath!' He removed his clothes, put them aside on
the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his
clothes had vanished. A Palestinian had stolen them.' The Palestinian representative jumped up furiously and shouted, 'What are you talking about? The Palestinians weren't there then.'
The Israeli representative smiled and said, 'And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.

Is this the piece of land he was laying claim to? lol
The Exodus Route: Rephidim (Meribah)

That would certainly solve everything in a hurry. The rock that was struck happened during the wandering in the desert as part of the 40 yeras in the desert before trekking towards the promised land. (Exodus:17) There should have been only Israel around, Palestinians would not have been around that particular area, they would have been further north in...... wait for it ....Palestine.

Joe:3:4:
Yea,
and what have ye to do with me,
O Tyre,
and Zidon,
and all the coasts of Palestine?
will ye render me a recompence?
and if ye recompence me,
swiftly and speedily will I return your recompence upon your own head;

There were people there even when Abraham first journeyed there.

 

[earth_as_one]

Yes it is. The ancestors of today's Jews took over that territory by force of arms in biblical times and the scrapping has been going on ever since. Not constantly, I agree, but pretty steadily. You're focusing on Zionism specifically, I'm talking about ethnic and internecine conflict in that area more generally, which has indeed been going on for thousands of years.

What can I say Dexter? With all respect, you have a very common misperception about what was going on in Palestine before Zionism.

Except for a brief Egyption invasion/occupation from 1831-1841, this area saw no war or internecine conflict from 1516 until 1917. That's 400 years of peace, more or less. When the British took over this area, they made the Balfour declaration, indicating they planned to hand Palestine over to Zionists. As Jewish immigration increased so did Arab hostility until Arabs openly revolted in 1936.

Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But if you still believe this area was violent, I have an open mind. Convince me. List the invasions and battles which took place in Palestine while it was controlled by the Ottomans. Good luck looking for something that didn't happen!

 

[ironsides]

Again you present only half truths, Yes Israel launched a preemptive 6/5.67 against Egypt and Syria. What you failed to mention was that there had been many cross border raids by Egypt and Syria prior to the strike and that Egypt had amassed 1,000 tanks and nearly 100,000 on the Israeli border. Syria opened a major border clash with Israel 4/7/67. So called UN Peacekeepers the cowards they are snuck away from the Egyptian border posts they occupied that May. Leaving it open for a Egyptian attack. "On June 3, days before the war, Egypt flew to Amman two battalions of commandos tasked with infiltrating Israel's borders and engaging in attacks and bombings so as to draw IDF into a Jordanian front and ease the pressure on the Egyptians. Soviet-made artillery and Egyptian military supplies and crews were also flown to Jordan"

Jordan was drawn into the conflict because of treaties with Egypt and Syria. What everyone seems to forget is that on June 3rd 1967 Iraq, Sudan, Kuwait and Algeria, began mobilizing their armed forces. War was about to happen, Israel thru brilliant planning struck first.

 

[earth_as_one]

Suffice to say Israel attacked first and without warning.

You accuse me of half truths IS??? I was just pointing out that Israel initiated that war which is true. If you want more details I can give it. But unlike you I'll comment on what BOTH sides did. You only mention what Israel's Arab neighbors did, which is only half the truth.

Yes there were cross border raids. Palestinian guerillas would launch small cross border raids into Israel and Israel would attack their camps on the other side of the borders. That had been going on for years. The biggest raid was when Israel attacked a series of dams in Syria in March, May, and August 1965, perpetuating a prolonged chain of border violence that linked directly to the events leading to war. Mind you Syria was diverting the Jordan river...

Yes there was a military buildup, on both sides of the border. And Egypt's President made a number of beligerent statements and threats as well as closed the straights of Tiran to all boats carrying strategic materials and goods to Israel.

But Israel was not attacked first as per the common misperception. Israel inititated the war and making it sound like self defense is plain wrong. Israel attacked with overwhleming force suddenly and without warning and kept all the land they conquered. Also consider this:

...Nine years later, Moshe Dayan, the Israeli defense minister at the time of the war, stated in an interview not published until 1997 that Israeli policy on the Syrian border between 1949 and 1967 consisted of "snatching bits of territory and holding on to it until the enemy despairs and gives it to us." About events on the Israeli-Syrian border he said:[43][44][45][46]

After all, I know how at least 80 percent of the clashes there started. In my opinion, more than 80 percent, but let's talk about 80 percent. It went this way: We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance farther, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot. And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was. I did that, and Laskov and Czera did that, and Yitzhak did that, but it seemed to me that the person who most enjoyed these games was Dado. We thought that we could change the lines of the ceasefire accords by military actions that were less than war. That is, to seize some territory and hold it until the enemy despairs and gives it to us.

Six-Day War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So its clear that Israel was playing games in order to provoke and justify a war. Israel planned all along to use their superior military force to invade, occupy and annex more land. Hardly an example of self defense.

 

[EagleSmack]

Suffice to say Israel attacked first and without warning.

Suffice to say that Israel was going to be attacked. You don't evict a UN Peace Keeping Force, mass 100,000 troops and 1000 tanks on a nations border for show. It is no secret that war was coming and Israel was not going to just hope that it didn't. try reading real history instead of foolish propaganda. Egypt and Syria were readying for war and the whole world knew it.

Yes there was a military buildup, on both sides of the border. And Egypt's President made a number of beligerent statements and threats as well as closed the straights of Tiran to all boats carrying strategic materials and goods to Israel.

As in blockade...an act of war.

But Israel was not attacked first as per the common misperception. Israel inititated the war and making it sound like self defense is plain wrong. Israel attacked with overwhleming force suddenly and without warning and kept all the land they conquered.

It is no common misinterpetation that Israel attacked first. It is a fact. To say they attacked with overwhelming force is a misconception as the Israelis were outnumbered and outgunned.

They were not going to sit on their butts and they took the initiative. The armies of Syria and Egypt were massing for a reason...war. Israel sent it's whole air force after both countries leaving only a small CAP above Israel and seized air control and then pushed the armies of Egypt back into the Suez, the Syrian armies off the Golan Heights, and the Jordanians back from the West Bank. Jordan lost most of all and they were bullied into war.

So its clear that Israel was playing games in order to provoke and justify a war. Israel planned all along to use their superior military force to invade, occupy and annex more land. Hardly an example of self defense.

No it was clear that the Arab countries were provoking a war.

At the end of May 1967, Jordanian forces were given to the command of an Egyptian general, Abdul Munim Riad.[88] On the same day, Nasser proclaimed: "The armies of Egypt, Jordan and Syria are poised on the borders of Israel ... to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations."[89]

To bad, so sad. A smaller Israeli force whipped a much larger Arab force completely. It was a rout.

Hey maybe you can talk about the Yom Kippur War! Any good propoganda on that?

 

[EagleSmack]

Pre- war cartoon...1967.

CASE CLOSED

 

[EagleSmack]

Six Day War Strength

Israel- 264K Troops, 800 Tanks, 300 Combat aircraft

Arab States- 577K Troops, 2,500 Tanks, 957 Combat aircraft

Overwhelming Force? :lol:

 

[MHz]

The Nov.13 incident was not a small incident

Aug 15, 1966 Israeli patrol boat run ashore in DMZ on Eastern shore of lake Galilee is attacked by Syrian air force and artillery. Israel air force downs two MiGs, but the boat must be salvaged at night due to persistent artillery fire. Nov 9, 1966 Egypt and Syria sign defense treaty. This date is also given as Nov. 4. A secret codicil promised that Egypt would attack Israel in the south if Israel attacked Syria. Nov 10, 1966 Three Israeli soldiers are killed by a land mine on an Israeli patrol road near the the border, south of Hebron. King Hussein sends an apology via US ambassador Walworth Barbour, but Barbour fails to deliver the apology. Nov 13, 1966 Samu' raid: Israeli troops retaliate for the November 10 killing of 3 Israeli soldiers by a mine planted on a patrol road. The attack unexpectedly runs into a column of Jordan Legion soldiers, kills 15 Jordanian soldiers and 3 civilians, & dynamite 125 houses in as Samu according to UN or about 40 according to Israelis.near Hebron; in response to the Israel is censured by SCR228 (25 Nov 66), but there is no military response from Amman. This leads to recriminations in the Israeli government, which had intended a smaller scale raid, and Palestinian anger and clashes with Jordanian security forces throughout West Bank, especially in Nablus where the army had to intervene. The PLO gains support. Dec 14, 1966 Egyptian Marshal Hakim Amer cables Nasser from Pakistan, recommending closing the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and dismissing the UNEF force from Gaza. Jan -March 1967 Over 270 border "incidents" cause rising concern in Israel. March 3 - Landmine injures tractorist in Kibbutz Shamir. March 12, explosion on train tracks near Kibbutz Lahav. March 26, 2 Palestinians killed trying to demolish a water pump near Arad. April 7, 1967 Israelis respond to intensive Syrian shelling of DMZ and and Israeli villages and kibbutzim with IAF raid. An air battle involving about 130 aircraft developed. Israelis down 6 MiG 21 fighters, 2 over the Golan and 4 over Damascus. May 11, 1967 Israeli PM Eshkol states, "In view of the 14 incidents in the past month alone it is possible that we will have to adopt measures no less drastic than those of April 7." UPI circulated a rumor (May 12) that Israel was trying to topple the Syrian regime. The incidents included shelling, terror attacks and attempted infiltration of a Syrian agent to blow up locations in Jerusalem. May 12, 1967 Remarks by Yitzhak Rabin interpreted as provocative against Syria. Rabin is rebuked by Eshkol. May 13, 1967 Soviets inform Anwar Sadat in Moscow that Israel is massing 10-12 brigades in preparation for an attack on Syria, supposedly to take place May 17. The information is false, as were several similar previous Soviet warnings. May 14, 1967 First reports of Egyptian troop movements into Sinai. http://www.zionism-israel.com/his/six_day_war_timeline.htm

You also seem to be skipping the original crime, Jews making war against Arab civilians for more than 5 months prior to the war of independence way back. Do you understand that those are war-crimes and that was the start of the current conflict.
It would seem that if a crime can go 20 years without prosecution the it ceases to be a crime. Israel had been practicing for the 6 day war since '65.