What exactly is Canada's place in the world?

[SirJosephPorter]

Depends on your vantage point. We may be the diaper. Right now, we seem to the US's flunky to some, a leader to others. To ourselves, the opinions are as divers as those who express an opinion.

Well Cliffy, to me, we are the US flunky. For a long time Liberals charted a separate course, our policy was different from that of USA, we were the more humane, more compassionate country.

Along came the Messiah. His idol, icon was Bush; he tried to imitate Bush as much as he could get away with. As soon as he came to power, he gave Bush a propitiation offering of 1 billion $ in softwood lumber dispute. And why not, it wasn’t his money to give, it was taxpayer’s money.

Since then, he has tried to imitate Bush in each and every way possible. We were fortunate indeed that the Messiah was not the PM when Bush invaded Iraq; otherwise we would be mired in Iraq today to our armpits. I assume the Messiah doesn’t like Obama much, so it remains to be seen if the now charts an independent closure or still remains a lackey of USA.

But in an ideal world, the Messiah would want to see Canada become a smaller, weaker copy of USA. We are a long way from becoming that, but if the Messiah stays in power for a long time, who knows.

 

[Cliffy]

Just give that bozo a majority and see how fast he acts to make us a mini me of the US.

 

[ironsides]

Well Cliffy, to me, we are the US flunky. For a long time Liberals charted a separate course, our policy was different from that of USA, we were the more humane, more compassionate country.

Along came the Messiah. His idol, icon was Bush; he tried to imitate Bush as much as he could get away with. As soon as he came to power, he gave Bush a propitiation offering of 1 billion $ in softwood lumber dispute. And why not, it wasn’t his money to give, it was taxpayer’s money.

Since then, he has tried to imitate Bush in each and every way possible. We were fortunate indeed that the Messiah was not the PM when Bush invaded Iraq; otherwise we would be mired in Iraq today to our armpits. I assume the Messiah doesn’t like Obama much, so it remains to be seen if the now charts an independent closure or still remains a lackey of USA.

But in an ideal world, the Messiah would want to see Canada become a smaller, weaker copy of USA. We are a long way from becoming that, but if the Messiah stays in power for a long time, who knows.

And in banking Canada reigns supreme. But again you still have to blame someone else for your woes. No one forced you to sell your forests to American logging companies, no one forced you to sign major contracts for your oil and other resources with American companies. You did all that by yourselves and as Cliffy intimated until you form a new centralized goverment and nationalize your resources life will go on as it always has. Capitalism maybe the cause, but without some form of it we all would starve.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Just give that bozo a majority and see how fast he acts to make us a mini me of the US.

Quite so, Cliffy. Right now he is governing from center right; he is governing in the mold of Mulroney and Joe Clark. So I have no problem with that. As far as economic policy is concerned, he is not really doing all that much different from what Liberals would have done (except Liberals would not have frittered away all the surplus for tax cuts for the rich as soon as they got in).

Which is OK as far as it goes. But I don’t trust him, I think he is a wolf in sheep's clothing. If he gets a majority, his teeth and claws will probably come out and he may start governing from the rabid right.

 

[pgs]

Well Cliffy, to me, we are the US flunky. For a long time Liberals charted a separate course, our policy was different from that of USA, we were the more humane, more compassionate country.

Along came the Messiah. His idol, icon was Bush; he tried to imitate Bush as much as he could get away with. As soon as he came to power, he gave Bush a propitiation offering of 1 billion $ in softwood lumber dispute. And why not, it wasn’t his money to give, it was taxpayer’s money.

Since then, he has tried to imitate Bush in each and every way possible. We were fortunate indeed that the Messiah was not the PM when Bush invaded Iraq; otherwise we would be mired in Iraq today to our armpits. I assume the Messiah doesn’t like Obama much, so it remains to be seen if the now charts an independent closure or still remains a lackey of USA.

But in an ideal world, the Messiah would want to see Canada become a smaller, weaker copy of USA. We are a long way from becoming that, but if the Messiah stays in power for a long time, who knows.

So of course this is a political issue and no Cretien did not renegotiate nafta as he promised.I believe he was steering a course away from U.S. when he didn't ? Eh.
And I see you are playing fast and loose with facts again,but don't let anything like a good story get in the way.
But please explain how duties paid by lumber companies to sell their product in the U.S. became taxpayer's money?

 

[earth_as_one]

Depends on your vantage point. We may be the diaper. Right now, we seem to the US's flunky to some, a leader to others. To ourselves, the opinions are as divers as those who express an opinion.

I agree. Copenhagen is a good example.

Canada isn't really a leader in any area except maybe multiculturalism. We used to lead in aviation (Avro Arrow) and peacekeeping (until Afghanistan). Canadian Nobel Laureates:

1. Willard S. Boyle*, Physics, 2009
2. Robert Mundell, Economics, 1999
3. Myron Scholes*, Economics, 1997
4. William Vickrey*, Economic Sciences, 1996
5. Pugwash Conferences on Science and World Affairs, Peace, 1995
6. Bertram N. Brockhouse, Physics, 1994
7. Michael Smith, born in the United Kingdom, Chemistry, 1993
8. Rudolph A. Marcus*, Chemistry, 1992
9. Richard E. Taylor, Physics, 1990
10. Sidney Altman, Chemistry, 1989
11. John C. Polanyi, Chemistry, 1986
12. David H. Hubel*, Physiology or Medicine, 1981
13. Saul Bellow*, Literature, 1976
14. Gerhard Herzberg, born in Germany, Chemistry, 1971
15. Charles B. Huggins*, Physiology or Medicine, 1966
16. Lester B. Pearson, Peace, 1957
17. William Giauque*, Chemistry, 1949
18. Frederick G. Banting, Physiology or Medicine, 1923

We tied the Netherlands... Yeah!
List of Nobel laureates by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I like Canada not being on anyone's radar.

 

[CDNBear]

I like Canada not being on anyone's radar.

That's how cowards live.

 

[countryboy]

And in banking Canada reigns supreme. But again you still have to blame someone else for your woes. No one forced you to sell your forests to American logging companies, no one forced you to sign major contracts for your oil and other resources with American companies. You did all that by yourselves and as Cliffy intimated until you form a new centralized goverment and nationalize your resources life will go on as it always has. Capitalism maybe the cause, but without some form of it we all would starve.

Ironsides - you are absolutely right. I'm not sure why we continue to "give away" our resources and then blame somebody else for it. It appears to me that our "negotiation style" is a bit weak from time to time. As the most powerful nation on earth, there is one thing the U.S. understands when it comes to negotiating...power. We just don't use it wisely most of the time.

I'm not sure that nationalizing our resources is the best way to go (if I'm interpreting that meaning accurately)...it might be simpler/cheaper/more effective to lay down a simple set of rules (simple, not a foot-thick book of paper) that would encompass what can and can't be sold by private companies under a clear policy of natural resources.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

So of course this is a political issue and no Cretien did not renegotiate nafta as he promised.I believe he was steering a course away from U.S. when he didn't ? Eh.

What does Chrétien renegotiating NAFTA (or promising to do so) have to do with if Canada today is a flunky of USA, pgs?

As to renegotiating NAFTA, I have already commented on it before, it was a piecrust promise, something to keep the rubes satisfied. Same as promise to repeal the GST, Chrétien did not have the slightest intention of keeping either of them.

This ranks along with Harper’s promise to repeal gay marriage or to reform the Senate. Again, those promises were made to keep the rubes happy; Harper never had any intention of keeping them.

Each politician makes a few promises like that, so what is your point?

 

[lone wolf]

We're still sending raw sawlogs south while mills here are closed

 

[Johnnny]

We export Petroleum and Lumber as our big two id say, mabye its to be robbed of that stuff heh

 

[countryboy]

We're still sending raw sawlogs south while mills here are closed

And isn't that a prime example of good, solid management of natural resources?! It is bizarre, and others recognize it as a "give away."

During a meeting I once had in Japan with a top executive of Toyota (who had lots of international experience and spoke English perfectly), he discovered I was a Canadian (representing a U.S. company). Upon hearing I was a Canuck, his first question was, "Why does Canada fail to see the value in their vast natural resources?" 16 years later, I'm still trying to come up with an answer.

 

[lone wolf]

The three things that should stay with the country are water rights, mineral rights and timber limits. I maintain it should be processed here but that isn't always possible. What can't be done is to re-open a rich mineral resource when the rights are owned in Brazil or Switzerland (Inco and Falconbridge - Vale and Xstrada)

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

And isn't that a prime example of good, solid management of natural resources?! It is bizarre, and others recognize it as a "give away."

During a meeting I once had in Japan with a top executive of Toyota (who had lots of international experience and spoke English perfectly), he discovered I was a Canadian (representing a U.S. company). Upon hearing I was a Canuck, his first question was, "Why does Canada fail to see the value in their vast natural resources?" 16 years later, I'm still trying to come up with an answer.

Japan has no resources to speak of and cannot understand why a country would not do all the processing work possible when it sells those resources. But then they have generations of highly skilled craftsmen, think of samurai swords. Japan has no oil and just pays whatever the price is from whoever. We have oil in the ground so we use it in ways they cannot comprehend. Cultural diversity is at work here.

 

[pgs]

What does Chrétien renegotiating NAFTA (or promising to do so) have to do with if Canada today is a flunky of USA, pgs?

As to renegotiating NAFTA, I have already commented on it before, it was a piecrust promise, something to keep the rubes satisfied. Same as promise to repeal the GST, Chrétien did not have the slightest intention of keeping either of them.

This ranks along with Harper’s promise to repeal gay marriage or to reform the Senate. Again, those promises were made to keep the rubes happy; Harper never had any intention of keeping them.

Each politician makes a few promises like that, so what is your point?

You are the one who stated that previous liberal gov'ts were moving away from americans.I provided an example where they clearly were not.
That kind sir is my point.
And I still do not take kindly to piecrust promises that polititions base their campaign around.
And I am still waiting to hear how the softwood deal came out of taxpayers pockets?

 

[countryboy]

Japan has no resources to speak of and cannot understand why a country would not do all the processing work possible when it sells those resources. But then they have generations of highly skilled craftsmen, think of samurai swords. Japan has no oil and just pays whatever the price is from whoever. We have oil in the ground so we use it in ways they cannot comprehend. Cultural diversity is at work here.

Canada is somewhat "spoiled" by our vast richness of resources...by that, I mean we may not quite realize the true value of what we have and what could be done with them, in a "total sense."

What is really ironic is that Japan has built a nice little (!) auto industry (and electronics too), much of it with the competitive advantage of having better quality...or, stuff that works right the first time.

This quality edge actually came from an American named Robert Demming, back in the 50s. He tried to preach the value of quality to American businesses as they were entering the post-war industrial boom, but wasn't taken very seriously in the US or Canada. Off he went to Japan to help in their post-war rebuilding process, was taken seriously by the likes of Sony, Toyota, etc., and the rest, as they say, is history.

Sometimes the answers are right in our own backyard.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You are the one who stated that previous liberal gov'ts were moving away from americans.I provided an example where they clearly were not.
That kind sir is my point.
And I still do not take kindly to piecrust promises that polititions base their campaign around.
And I am still waiting to hear how the softwood deal came out of taxpayers pockets?

Pgs, renegotiating NAFTA (or reneging on it) would have been cutting our nose to spite Americans. I think we should try to forge policies (especially foreign policy) independent of Americans, but Americans still are our friends. You don’t go back on promises or treaties made to your friends.

When Chrétien made the promise to renegotiate NAFTA, I knew at once that he was not going to keep the promise, and rightly too. I said we should try to formulate policies independent of Americans, I did not say we should oppose them at every turn, just for the sake of opposition.

And you don’t take kindly to piecrust promises? How about Harper’s promise to repeal gay marriage or reform the Senate? Those were piecrust promises, it was clear from the beginning that Harper had no intention of keeping them (the first would get Ontario and Quebec mad at him, it would be tantamount to committing political suicide, the second would need a constitutional amendment). Are you OK with Harper making (and breaking) piecrust promises? Every politician makes a few promises like that, it is nothing to get worked up about.

And if not the taxpayer, where did Harper get the 1 billion $ he paid to Bush to propitiate him?

 

[lone wolf]

And if not the taxpayer, where did Harper get the 1 billion $ he paid to Bush to propitiate him?

Link please....

 

[Cliffy]

And if not the taxpayer, where did Harper get the 1 billion $ he paid to Bush to propitiate him?

Didn't he just deduct it from the bill the world court told the Yanks they owed us from the illegal softwood lumber tariff?

 

[damngrumpy]

What some folks don't understand is that as Canadians we have turned complaining into an art form, its part of our fabric. Be careful when we stop complaining we actually do something. Our place in the world is an ebb and flow thing, right now
we are not at the top of our game. When we are progressive and we will be again,
we are highly respected around the world. Respect is our trade mark, we thrive on it
and it gets us into places and situations we couldn't go otherwise.
These days we are not in the vanguard of our overall potential but that is OK we
will soon have a vision again, as soon as we determine the length of the conservative
deep freeze, and when the thaw should begin. Canada has that rare ability to rebound from any crisis and move to new heights, I wouldn't worry about this nation
and its place in the world, we built such a good reputation in the past we can live
on the trademark for years, at least until the conservative movement has been put
back in the darkness of the closet with the Christmas poinsettias