What exactly is Canada's place in the world?

[dumpthemonarchy]

Canada is somewhat "spoiled" by our vast richness of resources...by that, I mean we may not quite realize the true value of what we have and what could be done with them, in a "total sense."

What is really ironic is that Japan has built a nice little (!) auto industry (and electronics too), much of it with the competitive advantage of having better quality...or, stuff that works right the first time.

This quality edge actually came from an American named Robert Demming, back in the 50s. He tried to preach the value of quality to American businesses as they were entering the post-war industrial boom, but wasn't taken very seriously in the US or Canada. Off he went to Japan to help in their post-war rebuilding process, was taken seriously by the likes of Sony, Toyota, etc., and the rest, as they say, is history.

Sometimes the answers are right in our own backyard.

Too many resources and not enough time/beer/chicks etc could be our problem.

Japan, the land of the cute. They are really into little things, and when it comes to making cars, they really are into making the little things work properly. People notice that because they save money as the car spends less time in the shop. And doing this with a closed auto market.

We can buy their cars, but they can buy hardly any foreign cars. And still they make the most reliable and now luxurious high end cars. Figure that one out.

I'd like to see a genuinely Canadian designed and manufactured mass produced car, I wonder how good it would be.

 

[countryboy]

Too many resources and not enough time/beer/chicks etc could be our problem.

Japan, the land of the cute. They are really into little things, and when it comes to making cars, they really are into making the little things work properly. People notice that because they save money as the car spends less time in the shop. And doing this with a closed auto market.

We can buy their cars, but they can buy hardly any foreign cars. And still they make the most reliable and now luxurious high end cars. Figure that one out.

I'd like to see a genuinely Canadian designed and manufactured mass produced car, I wonder how good it would be.

Or how good it could be? We certainly have some of the most unique needs for cars in the world (long distance trips, severe weather conditions, to name just 2) and we do have the "test conditions" sitting right here in our own backyard. We have the raw materials too. And manufacturing capacity. Also a skilled labour force. So what are we missing?

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Or how good it could be? We certainly have some of the most unique needs for cars in the world (long distance trips, severe weather conditions, to name just 2) and we do have the "test conditions" sitting right here in our own backyard. We have the raw materials too. And manufacturing capacity. Also a skilled labour force. So what are we missing?

The American business lackeys in Toronto once they got free trade with the US, snorted more coke than existed in Colombia or Atlanta. They gave up on the world.

The country could use a national industrial strategy here. But the FTA and NAFTA prevent the govt from doing this. Business is in it for itself, not the nation. If the nation benefits, bonus.

Business just looks to the next quarter, there is no vision here.

 

[countryboy]

The American business lackeys in Toronto once they got free trade with the US, snorted more coke than existed in Colombia or Atlanta. They gave up on the world.

The country could use a national industrial strategy here. But the FTA and NAFTA prevent the govt from doing this. Business is in it for itself, not the nation. If the nation benefits, bonus.

Business just looks to the next quarter, there is no vision here.

Hmm...some interesting points there. I am not sure how NAFTA could prevent Canada from establishing a national industrial strategy. I'm not arguing the point, as I don't know enough of the details.

Business all too often looks to the next quarter, and in many cases, it's the shareholders that force management to do just that. Their jobs often depend on quarterly results. But, like anything else, there are exceptions to the rule. Many companies have to have longer range plans in order to plan capital investments, technology investments (new products), and many other items that can't be brought to any results in a 3 month period.

I wonder if there are many Canadian investors out there that would be willing to put their money into a company that would produce an "all-Canadian" car, as you described in your post? It would have to be financially feasible, but that's not impossible, depending on what the objectives are, how it's planned, etc.

The one thing we might be lacking is the will to do it. What do you think?

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Hmm...some interesting points there. I am not sure how NAFTA could prevent Canada from establishing a national industrial strategy. I'm not arguing the point, as I don't know enough of the details.

Business all too often looks to the next quarter, and in many cases, it's the shareholders that force management to do just that. Their jobs often depend on quarterly results. But, like anything else, there are exceptions to the rule. Many companies have to have longer range plans in order to plan capital investments, technology investments (new products), and many other items that can't be brought to any results in a 3 month period.

I wonder if there are many Canadian investors out there that would be willing to put their money into a company that would produce an "all-Canadian" car, as you described in your post? It would have to be financially feasible, but that's not impossible, depending on what the objectives are, how it's planned, etc.

The one thing we might be lacking is the will to do it. What do you think?

I can't remember all the details, but I I read that in NAFTA, a national industrial strategy wold favour Cdn biz over foreign biz and that is fundamentally against NAFTA. Although it is not against the spirit of free trade. Because Canada will still have an open market for cars and the cars will be exported.

Business here does look beyond the next quarter, but the Big 3 didin't seem to.
We just gave billions to the walking dead of the Big 3, that's okay.
Although now Canada has brands in Roots and the Blackberry. But over 80% of our exports stilll go to the USA.

Making a new brand is tough, but there are some for sale out there right now like Saab. There is flux in the auto industry in a way we haven't seen for decades.

 

[countryboy]

I can't remember all the details, but I I read that in NAFTA, a national industrial strategy wold favour Cdn biz over foreign biz and that is fundamentally against NAFTA. Although it is not against the spirit of free trade. Because Canada will still have an open market for cars and the cars will be exported.

Business here does look beyond the next quarter, but the Big 3 didin't seem to.
We just gave billions to the walking dead of the Big 3, that's okay.
Although now Canada has brands in Roots and the Blackberry. But over 80% of our exports stilll go to the USA.

Making a new brand is tough, but there are some for sale out there right now like Saab. There is flux in the auto industry in a way we haven't seen for decades.

Yes, there is upheaval in the auto biz for sure. Upheaval can bring opportunties too, of course. I realize creating a new brand is a toughie...lots of things involved, including the issue of dealerships (how to get the cars to the consumer). But, if one took a "clean slate" approach to the thing, it might prove to be interesting.

For example, just because dealerships are the tradition here, doesn't mean it's the only way to sell cars. What if a new car didn't have as much "scheduled maintenance" required, didn't really require the same services a dealership offers nowadays...parts & service, at least, not to the same extent? What if it was made in a more "modular" way, so that a replacement of a quarter panel was a simple matter, not requiring the services of a "factory-trained" technician? Ditto for service parts, etc.

Which leaves the actual selling of the car in question here...it's interesting that car dealerships are a relatively new innovation in Japan. When I first got there in the late 80s, lots of cars were still being sold door to door...true! I'm not suggesting that is an option here, given our space and distance differences, but what other ways could cars be sold here? Probably lots of ways, if we really thought about it.

I realize that is some "off the wall" thinking, but the technological advances made in recent years could actually be applied to some of these "expensive" issues to make them "easier" to deal with. Hell, I'd even think about a total recycling program for complete autos, so that "junkers" would be a thing of the past. Just recycle 'em every 2 or 3 years and get a new one for a reasonable cost. That one might require some government support, but it might be justifiable if the people really want to keep the environment clean.

Conventional thinking is in direct conflict with creative thinking, as a rule. Doing something like inventing a new "kind" of car requires a lot of creative thinking, but I think it's quite a reasonable thing to consider doing. A good marketing analyst could easily identify the consumer needs and lay them out as a starting point...to compare what's wrong with today's cars vs. what do people really want/need in terms of personal transportation. Price of the car, and cost of maintenance and operation should be at the top of most people's list, I would think.

It's easier (or least, has a better chance of being "possible") if you go in an all-new direction, vs. buying out an existing car plant or company. Granted, more expensive in the short run, but if you're hitting the right needs correctly, the payoffs should be there in a reasonable time. Like you said, the industry is on its collective ass in many ways right now, and that could be the right time to be a bit revolutionary.

Well, at any rate, it doesn't cost a thing to discuss it, eh? And it is a bit of fun too!

 

[CDNBear]

The softwood lumber tariff was in direct violation of NAFTA and therefore the US broke the treaty as far as I'm concerned and therefore NAFTA should be renegotiated.

That's not necessarily true. Canada won that case on a loophole.

The US's position was that Canadian Crown land stumpage fees are extremely low. But here's the kicker. If the stumpage fees were summarily available to only timber producers, the US would have one. But they're not. They are available to all Canadians. As they are from Crown land.

The problem is, once an average citizen bids on a piece of Crown land, you open bidding to all parties. Hence the timber producers can move in and out bid you.

This is further compounded by the fact that once a timber company begins harvesting, they can artificially lower the stumpage fee, by purposefully harvesting slack timber or low grade timber and petition the Crown to lower the fee. A service, again, available to all.

Hence the US losing the case.

Not a proud day for Canada.

 

[Cliffy]

That's not necessarily true. Canada won that case on a loophole.

The US's position was that Canadian Crown land stumpage fees are extremely low. But here's the kicker. If the stumpage fees were summarily available to only timber producers, the US would have one. But they're not. They are available to all Canadians. As they are from Crown land.

The problem is, once an average citizen bids on a piece of Crown land, you open bidding to all parties. Hence the timber producers can move in and out bid you.

This is further compounded by the fact that once a timber company begins harvesting, they can artificially lower the stumpage fee, by purposefully harvesting slack timber or low grade timber and petition the Crown to lower the fee. A service, again, available to all.

Hence the US losing the case.

Not a proud day for Canada.

I don't pretend to know a lot about the subject, but it seems to me that most of the major forest companies are American or internationally owned that hold TFLs (at least in BC). The only companies hurt by the tariff were the Canadian ones. The American companies would probably get a rebate at their home office and they still benefit from low stumpage.

 

[YukonJack]

"And one of the leaders in beer drinking, yes/no?"

Sorry, Australia beats us by a country kilometer. In spite of the fact that their national slop, Foster's laughingly called a beer is nowhere near as good as Labbatt's Ice or La Fin du Monde.

 

[countryboy]

"And one of the leaders in beer drinking, yes/no?"

Sorry, Australia beats us by a country kilometer. In spite of the fact that their national slop, Foster's laughingly called a beer is nowhere near as good as Labbatt's Ice or La Fin du Monde.

YJ - Yeah, but have you ever sampled one from Oz called VB (Victoria Bitter)? Mmm-good! :smile:

 

[CDNBear]

I don't pretend to know a lot about the subject, but it seems to me that most of the major forest companies are American or internationally owned that hold TFLs (at least in BC). The only companies hurt by the tariff were the Canadian ones. The American companies would probably get a rebate at their home office and they still benefit from low stumpage.

In the spirit of sharing knowledge, is there a list available that shows what companies were penalized or not?

 

[ironsides]

I don't pretend to know a lot about the subject, but it seems to me that most of the major forest companies are American or internationally owned that hold TFLs (at least in BC). The only companies hurt by the tariff were the Canadian ones. The American companies would probably get a rebate at their home office and they still benefit from low stumpage.

I am not aware of any company getting a rebate from the goverment for anything we import. Just not logical. If they do, please show me, especially when it comes to lumber.

 

[Cliffy]

In the spirit of sharing knowledge, is there a list available that shows what companies were penalized or not?

Not that I know of or know how to find. The whole point of the tariff was to protect the interest of US lumber companies. It just doesn't make sense to me that the US government would penalize their own companies for raping our forests. Many of the smaller mills in BC couldn't compete in that market and were bought out by foreign interests. BC forest industry has been in the toilet ever since. Now it is almost extinct. About all we do now is export raw logs.

 

[countryboy]

Not that I know of or know how to find. The whole point of the tariff was to protect the interest of US lumber companies. It just doesn't make sense to me that the US government would penalize their own companies for raping our forests. Many of the smaller mills in BC couldn't compete in that market and were bought out by foreign interests. BC forest industry has been in the toilet ever since. Now it is almost extinct. About all we do now is export raw logs.

I've never agreed with the raw log thing...short term gain for long term pain. Is it possible a "re-think" might be in order here? We still have the resources (trees) but I can't help thinking that there are a few opportunities that have been overlooked whereby more finished product could be made here (BC) and sold as such. I know it's a giant challenge, but hey, if it was easy, anybody could do it, right? :-?

 

[Cliffy]

I've never agreed with the raw log thing...short term gain for long term pain. Is it possible a "re-think" might be in order here? We still have the resources (trees) but I can't help thinking that there are a few opportunities that have been overlooked whereby more finished product could be made here (BC) and sold as such. I know it's a giant challenge, but hey, if it was easy, anybody could do it, right? :-?

I have heard talk of value added for almost 30 years and no one has done much about it. It seems that the resource extraction mentality has no room in their thought processes to accommodate any other concept. I remember when the biggest idea BC came up with for value added was to pre-drill a hole in studs for the electrical wires. Weren't you really impressed with that innovation?

 

[countryboy]

I have heard talk of value added for almost 30 years and no one has done much about it. It seems that the resource extraction mentality has no room in their thought processes to accommodate any other concept. I remember when the biggest idea BC came up with for value added was to pre-drill a hole in studs for the electrical wires. Weren't you really impressed with that innovation?

Brings tears to my eyes. 8O

I'm wondering if, back in the early days, IKEA had the same kinds of innovative ideas?

 

[dumpthemonarchy]

Yes, there is upheaval in the auto biz for sure. Upheaval can bring opportunties too, of course. I realize creating a new brand is a toughie...lots of things involved, including the issue of dealerships (how to get the cars to the consumer). But, if one took a "clean slate" approach to the thing, it might prove to be interesting.

For example, just because dealerships are the tradition here, doesn't mean it's the only way to sell cars. What if a new car didn't have as much "scheduled maintenance" required, didn't really require the same services a dealership offers nowadays...parts & service, at least, not to the same extent? What if it was made in a more "modular" way, so that a replacement of a quarter panel was a simple matter, not requiring the services of a "factory-trained" technician? Ditto for service parts, etc.

Which leaves the actual selling of the car in question here...it's interesting that car dealerships are a relatively new innovation in Japan. When I first got there in the late 80s, lots of cars were still being sold door to door...true! I'm not suggesting that is an option here, given our space and distance differences, but what other ways could cars be sold here? Probably lots of ways, if we really thought about it.

I realize that is some "off the wall" thinking, but the technological advances made in recent years could actually be applied to some of these "expensive" issues to make them "easier" to deal with. Hell, I'd even think about a total recycling program for complete autos, so that "junkers" would be a thing of the past. Just recycle 'em every 2 or 3 years and get a new one for a reasonable cost. That one might require some government support, but it might be justifiable if the people really want to keep the environment clean.

Conventional thinking is in direct conflict with creative thinking, as a rule. Doing something like inventing a new "kind" of car requires a lot of creative thinking, but I think it's quite a reasonable thing to consider doing. A good marketing analyst could easily identify the consumer needs and lay them out as a starting point...to compare what's wrong with today's cars vs. what do people really want/need in terms of personal transportation. Price of the car, and cost of maintenance and operation should be at the top of most people's list, I would think.

It's easier (or least, has a better chance of being "possible") if you go in an all-new direction, vs. buying out an existing car plant or company. Granted, more expensive in the short run, but if you're hitting the right needs correctly, the payoffs should be there in a reasonable time. Like you said, the industry is on its collective ass in many ways right now, and that could be the right time to be a bit revolutionary.

Well, at any rate, it doesn't cost a thing to discuss it, eh? And it is a bit of fun too!

A new auto brand would be fantastic for the industrial base of the nation and it seems like a great opportunity is slipping away right now.

In other countries cars are sold differently. Countries like Japan and Korea have smaller dealerships and the process of buying a car is much different, because you are usually buying new. Cheap old cars are a North American phenomena that change the dynamics of building, distributing, repairing, and selling cars here. Plus we have big houses with garages and they all live in apartments.

In fact, when I was in Japan a few years back, I met a man from New Zealand who had $15,000 cash to buy several cars for friends and ship them back to New Zealand. He was telling me of all the difficulties he had in trying to find a dealer in Tokyo to sell to him. I later met a japanese professor on a train and told him about this, and the prof said because he didn't have a contact in Japan, the dealers did not want to do business with him. The New Zealander was telling me his troubles and I simply couldn't understand how someone with money couldn't buy cars quickly. He eventually did buy his cars, took him two weeks.

 

[countryboy]

A new auto brand would be fantastic for the industrial base of the nation and it seems like a great opportunity is slipping away right now.

In other countries cars are sold differently. Countries like Japan and Korea have smaller dealerships and the process of buying a car is much different, because you are usually buying new. Cheap old cars are a North American phenomena that change the dynamics of building, distributing, repairing, and selling cars here. Plus we have big houses with garages and they all live in apartments.

In fact, when I was in Japan a few years back, I met a man from New Zealand who had $15,000 cash to buy several cars for friends and ship them back to New Zealand. He was telling me of all the difficulties he had in trying to find a dealer in Tokyo to sell to him. I later met a japanese professor on a train and told him about this, and the prof said because he didn't have a contact in Japan, the dealers did not want to do business with him. The New Zealander was telling me his troubles and I simply couldn't understand how someone with money couldn't buy cars quickly. He eventually did buy his cars, took him two weeks.

Oh well, that's all part of the "relationship" thing in Japanese business. Very strong. I lived in Yokohama, a big port city south of Tokyo. Used to see lots of Russian freighters just loaded with 4 or 5 yr. old cars strapped to the decks in every available little space, bound for home. The ship's captains had the right relationships and could easily get as many cars as they could handle.

I also believe the time is right for a new auto brand...in fact, a new auto for Canada. Depressed times can be the right time for big changes...

 

[AnnaG]

"What exactly is Canada's place in the world?"

Northern hemisphere, western hemisphere, south of the north pole but north of the USA. Between the 50th (approximately) latitude and 0 lat. Between about 55 long. and about 140 long.

 

[countryboy]

"What exactly is Canada's place in the world?"

Northern hemisphere, western hemisphere, south of the north pole but north of the USA.

AnnaG - That sounds right! Gawd, it took us long enough to finally figure it out...:lol: