Do you actually care if Afghans were tortured?

[Cliffy]

Wrong.

Were that true, we would be living the world view of the Spartans....or the Persians, or fuedalism would never have ended, nor would slavery, or we would be goose-stepping to Wagner LOL, or starving on communal farms.

You are rich and free because western civilization has developed through revolution and warfare, spread through conquest and warfare, and defended itself vigorously and violently.

Gratuitous violence is the way of great civilizations........it is survival of the fittest..........let your guard down, and your civilization slips......

And yes, this one is worth defending.

Or perhaps you would prefer sharia law?????

Western civilization is the absolute apex of human development. The sane amongst us refuse to see it undermined or destroyed by religious loonies that would grag aus back to the thirteenth century.

Give your head a shake!!!!

And you wonder why they hate us, strap on bombs and fly planes into our buildings. I'm shaking my head alright, at that ridiculous statement of yours.

 

[Colpy]

And you wonder why they hate us, strap on bombs and fly planes into our buildings. I'm shaking my head alright, at that ridiculous statement of yours.

That is not an answer....it is a sidestep...........

They would have flown planes into our buildings regardless of my opinion.

If you want to challenge my opinion....fine, I'd love a debate. But you have to present an argument.

 

[Cliffy]

That is not an answer....it is a sidestep...........

They would have flown planes into our buildings regardless of my opinion.

If you want to challenge my opinion....fine, I'd love a debate. But you have to present an argument.

Well Colpy, we come from completely different perspectives on this. For me war is uncivilized. Our so called civilization is based on war, so to me it is not civilized. To me civilized is to live in peace and harmony with nature and other people. But as long as we insist on telling each other who is the boss, who is making the rules, then people will not get along.

I believe in the message of peace and brotherly love that Jesus supposedly brought us. If we cannot build a civilization based on peaceful tolerance of and cooperation with our neighbours, then we may as well move back into the caves, because our minds and hearts are still there in the cold, damp, smokey caverns in the abyss of our unevolved, barbarian minds.

 

[pgs]

Well Colpy, we come from completely different perspectives on this. For me war is uncivilized. Our so called civilization is based on war, so to me it is not civilized. To me civilized is to live in peace and harmony with nature and other people. But as long as we insist on telling each other who is the boss, who is making the rules, then people will not get along.

I believe in the message of peace and brotherly love that Jesus supposedly brought us. If we cannot build a civilization based on peaceful tolerance of and cooperation with our neighbours, then we may as well move back into the caves, because our minds and hearts are still there in the cold, damp, smokey caverns in the abyss of our unevolved, barbarian minds.

Thats well and fine if your adversary agrees.
But if he carries a big stick look out.

 

[Cliffy]

Thats well and fine if your adversary agrees.
But if he carries a big stick look out.

Well, who is carrying a big stick today? Who is the "super power" that is running around the planet telling everyone he has the biggest dick and is ready to use it, so don't piss him off?

 

[ironsides]

Why all the concern when we hand Afghans over to their own government and no concern by the lefties when terrorists make a film of dragging an American prisoner around until his head comes off? Or chop peoples hands off for exercising their democratic right to vote? I know we are marginally more civilized than they are but there is no comparison.

They will just bury their heads in the sand again gloating about the wonderful job they have done. The people of Afghanistan mean nothing to the lefties.

 

[Dixie Cup]

I believe in the message of peace and brotherly love that Jesus supposedly brought us. If we cannot build a civilization based on peaceful tolerance of and cooperation with our neighbours, then we may as well move back into the caves, because our minds and hearts are still there in the cold, damp, smokey caverns in the abyss of our unevolved, barbarian minds.[/quote]

I, too, believe that we should live accordingly. I hate fighting as much as I hate anything. Wouldn't it be a wonderful world if that were true? Ideally, everyone would live in peace and harmony.

Unfortunately, there are those who won't or don't want to. So, are you saying we just watch and do nothing? I guess it would be the "safest" thing for us to do.

Others on this forum claim that we need to adhere to civil rights and the Geneva Convention and I agree. However, since Afghanistan is 50 years (or more) behind us, it can't take place over night. We need to ensure that the transferred prisioners are treated humanely and that's an on-going process. Wish it were that we could just wave a magic wand and ta da - everything would be hunky dory!

While I abhor fighting, there comes a time in ones life that you must stand up for something. Yes, the "West" is not (and has not) been perfect, and that is our fault. We are free to choose our leaders by "voting" and if we've made mistakes, we need to take responsibility for them and hold those elected responsible. But, we've become lazy and apathetic. There are things that should have been done better or differently, or not at all. In some cases, hind sight is 20-20. In others, it was plain stupidity and/or arrogance.

By the same token, Afghani's and other countries like them have no choice. They are purposely kept uneducated and hungry, scatching out a living trying to feed their families while tyrants brain-wash the masses. And these same tyrants have appointed themselves as leaders that the population must follow their interpretation of some religious book.

I don't know how we can resolve things when greed, power and misgynists are in charge (on both sides). I just know that at some point, we need to take a stand for what's right.

JMO

 

[Mowich]

Of course! For the following reasons!
1. We are signatories to the Geneva Conventions.
Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, 75 U.N.T.S. 135, entered into force Oct. 21, 1950.
2. We would expect Canadian forces taken prisoner in an armed conflict to be treated humanely.
3. We subscribe, as a nation, to the rule of law.
4. So Canada can advocate honestly for human rights worldwide!
5. Observance of human rights is a mark of civilization!

I agree with Spade, for all the above reasons.

 

[earth_as_one]

I am sorry, but this is not a right-left issue!
1. We are signatories to the Geneva Conventions. We have an obligation to ensure the prisoners we take in a conflict are not tortured.
2. We would expect Canadian Forces taken prisoner in an armed conflict to be treated humanely.
3. We subscribe, as a nation, left and right, to the rule of law.
4. We cannot criticize others for human-rights breaches if we breach human rights ourselves.
5. We are there, purportedly, in Afghanistan to further human rights and the rule of law.

I agree. It defines us. Abolishing torture was a step forward. Torture through the backdoor is a step backwards.

 

[Colpy]

Well Colpy, we come from completely different perspectives on this. For me war is uncivilized. Our so called civilization is based on war, so to me it is not civilized. To me civilized is to live in peace and harmony with nature and other people. But as long as we insist on telling each other who is the boss, who is making the rules, then people will not get along.

I believe in the message of peace and brotherly love that Jesus supposedly brought us. If we cannot build a civilization based on peaceful tolerance of and cooperation with our neighbours, then we may as well move back into the caves, because our minds and hearts are still there in the cold, damp, smokey caverns in the abyss of our unevolved, barbarian minds.

I agree with this more than you would imagine.....but I ask, "How do we bring the world as close as possible to this goal?"

Free nations do not go to war with each other. Full stop.

We spread western ideals of freedom....and democracy.....and we defend with all means possible our civilization.

We have had massive failures and we have back-slid numerous times.....and we need to keep a close eye on our own gov'ts who are currently snarfing up our hard-won freedoms at an alarming rate, quoting "the war on terror" as an excuse.

Torture is never an option.

But neither is allowing our position in the world to slip in favour of the Chinese fascist monolith or the Islamic one........

 

[Cliffy]

I learned from forty years of fighting with the Ministry of Deforestation that polarization is not the answer to anything. Fear and anger are the basis of all conflict. Understanding is the only way to reach a compromise. The Statu quo thinking on the middle east is that there is no way to compromise so destroying them is the only solution. I say that is absolute BS propaganda. My general rule of thumb is to not believe anything the mass media and the government is feeding us. It usually leaves a really bad taste in the mouth.

 

[missile]

I'd like to add Greed to your short list of reasons of all the conflicts in the World.

 

[lone wolf]

I think it's the closest thing to meaningful sex they get....