Refuse to choose® women deserve better® than abortion

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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So you refuse to pay taxes, support the efforts to stop global warming, and will do everything to defeat the Conservative Gov't ?

Defeating the conservative government, I do my part by voting against them. Not paying taxes..... no...why would I do that? I voice my opinion, try to vote for those that feel the same as I do, which isn't always possible as I know I am in a minority at this point in time.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Just for clarification, I believe Gerryh is saying that his opinion on abortion
is NOT based on Religion, but based on the fact that (in his opinion) it is
extinguishing a life just like capital punishment, murder, wars, etc...

Well, why didn't he say so? I reread the post and I still don't see that.
 

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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abortion is not about religeon.

bluedog and gerryh,

Are you living a pious and humble life, treating others as you would have them treat you? Are you avoiding judging others harshly so that others will not judge you harshly? Are you quietly going about living your beliefs? Do you have nothing to be ashamed of or have you sinned according to your understanding of that word? Do you have faith that your life experience here has assured you a place in heaven? Is your life an example that Jesus could point to and say to the rest of humanity, "I want you to live the way these two guys live for it pleases me greatly"? Will you stand before god on judgment day with a clear conscience?

and what does THIS have to do with abortion?

It appears there are some that have a problem sticking to the topic.

It has everything to do with your opinions about people who have abortions and about the subject in general. Like I told a catholic friend (a male) "if you don't like abortion, don't have one". I believe that the creator wants us to live our lives not be constantly fretting over what others do.

Sorry...nope.... has nothing to do with my opinion on abortion. I am Pro-Life.... as in I don't believe we should be killing ANYBODY. I don't believe in Capital punushment, I don't subscribe to war, and I don't believe in abortion. It is ALL murder.

Abortion has become the easy way out for the selfish and those that are unwilling to take responsibility for their own actions.

Well, why didn't he say so? I reread the post and I still don't see that.


How many times did I need to say it?
 

SirJosephPorter

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Nov 7, 2008
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Just for clarification, I believe Gerryh is saying that his opinion on abortion
is NOT based on Religion, but based on the fact that (in his opinion) it is
extinguishing a life just like capital punishment, murder, wars, etc...

That may be his opinion Ron, but I really don’t see how one can make a non religious argument against abortion.

If there is no reference to religion, then the only way to argue against abortion is to prove it scientifically that abortion is murder. Nobody has managed to do that yet. If it is proved scientifically that abortion is murder, the argument will be over, most people (including myself) would be in favor of banning abortion. Most people, same as me, put a great store by what the scientists say.

So a non religious argument against abortion, if it can be substantiated will result in banning of abortion worldwide, by an overwhelming margin. But that hasn’t happened, so I can only conclude that there is (as yet) no scientific argument against abortion.

The only argument against abortion that I have seen is that God forbids it (or rather, one’s particular version of God forbids it). I have yet to see a convincing scientific argument proving that life begins at conception.
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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That may be his opinion Ron, but I really don’t see how one can make a non religious argument against abortion.

In the sense of religion SJP..................

I might believe in a God, but I don't believe in religion..

I also believe that Abortion should only be used in very extreme cases..

Why can someone not believe in religion or even God and yet not believe in Abortion ?
 

Francis2004

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Nov 18, 2008
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Defeating the conservative government, I do my part by voting against them. Not paying taxes..... no...why would I do that? I voice my opinion, try to vote for those that feel the same as I do, which isn't always possible as I know I am in a minority at this point in time.

I just happen to know some very commited people who refuse to pay taxes as to not support the war and other programs..

Just asking..
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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That may be his opinion Ron, but I really don’t see how one can make a non religious argument against abortion.

If there is no reference to religion, then the only way to argue against abortion is to prove it scientifically that abortion is murder. Nobody has managed to do that yet. If it is proved scientifically that abortion is murder, the argument will be over, most people (including myself) would be in favor of banning abortion. Most people, same as me, put a great store by what the scientists say.

So a non religious argument against abortion, if it can be substantiated will result in banning of abortion worldwide, by an overwhelming margin. But that hasn’t happened, so I can only conclude that there is (as yet) no scientific argument against abortion.

The only argument against abortion that I have seen is that God forbids it (or rather, one’s particular version of God forbids it). I have yet to see a convincing scientific argument proving that life begins at conception.



Abortion is murder because one is extinguishing a human life. Your "scientific" argument supporting abortion is bogus and a non starter. Scientists themselves can not and have not ever agreed on when life "begins". At one time in our history a baby was not considered "human" untill it had reached one year of age. Later it was at birth, after the baby took that first breath and wailed. Now, there are those that say it is human at viability, and here's the kicker, 50 years ago viability was somewhere around 34 - 36 weeks gestation. It has now slowly edged down to around 22 - 24 weeks.

Now, if the baby isn't "human", isn't really "alive" untill it is born, then why are we, as a society, spending all this money on new medical techniques to lower the age of viability? Why spend money on trying to ensure the viability of something that isn't human? Something that has been refered to as being no more than a "parasite"?
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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If there is no reference to religion, then the only way to argue against abortion is to prove it scientifically that abortion is murder. Nobody has managed to do that yet.

Do you actually need someone in a lab coat to confirm everything to you?

Does the fetus have its own sex? YES!

Does the fetus have its own blood type? YES!

Does the fetus have its own DNA? YES!

What do you need to be proven to you? Its a human in there. YOU used to be in there! And since the procedure of abortion ENDS THE LIFE of the fetus, which is ITS OWN HUMAN, then what do you conclude? Its NOT murder???

If it is proved scientifically that abortion is murder, the argument will be over, most people (including myself) would be in favor of banning abortion. Most people, same as me, put a great store by what the scientists say.

The only argument against abortion that I have seen is that God forbids it (or rather, one’s particular version of God forbids it). I have yet to see a convincing scientific argument proving that life begins at conception.
Here's a non-religious argument:

A persons right to life trumps a persons right to liberty. The right to life take precedence, in fact its the only absolute right that trumps the absolute right to liberty...
 
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gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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A persons right to life trumps a persons right to liberty. The right to life take precedence, in fact its the only absolute right that trumps the absolute right to liberty...


Here's the thing though alley, no ones "right to liberty" is being taken away when abortion is not allowed.

The person that get's pregnant, got pregnant by their own accord. ( remeber, I said we take rape and incest out of the equation) They had a choice as to whether or not they wanted to get pregnant. Pregnancy's don't happen spontaneously.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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"If God want's that child now, he will take him by Abortion or any other method.. Period.. Man does not decide, God does.. "- Sounds like B.S. to me. There are two children each needing a blood transfusion to go on living. One is a Jehovah's Witness while the other is a run of the mill human being. Of course the J.W. child dies. Are you going to attribute that to God? Would God select one child over another?
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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Abortion is murder because one is extinguishing a human life. Your "scientific" argument supporting abortion is bogus and a non starter. Scientists themselves can not and have not ever agreed on when life "begins". At one time in our history a baby was not considered "human" untill it had reached one year of age. Later it was at birth, after the baby took that first breath and wailed. Now, there are those that say it is human at viability, and here's the kicker, 50 years ago viability was somewhere around 34 - 36 weeks gestation. It has now slowly edged down to around 22 - 24 weeks.

Now, if the baby isn't "human", isn't really "alive" untill it is born, then why are we, as a society, spending all this money on new medical techniques to lower the age of viability? Why spend money on trying to ensure the viability of something that isn't human? Something that has been refered to as being no more than a "parasite"?


OK so when Cloning becomes fact for humans, as it is claimed to be for animals, when does one stop reproducing multiples of people and what level ( stage ) are they considered people ?

The consequences of today will affect the choices of tomorrow ..
 

gerryh

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Nov 21, 2004
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OK so when Cloning becomes fact for humans, as it is claimed to be for animals, when does one stop reproducing multiples of people and what level ( stage ) are they considered people ?

The consequences of today will affect the choices of tomorrow ..


That is an entirely different subject and has no connection whatsoever with abortion, either for or against.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Nov 7, 2008
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Do you actually need someone in a lab coat to confirm everything to you?

I most certainly do, alley. When it comes to abortion (or indeed, anything to do with science or medicine), I listen to scientists, and not to Fundamentalist preachers or the Pope.

Does the fetus have its own sex? YES!

Does the fetus have its own blood type? YES!

Does the fetus have its own DNA? YES!


And how does that prove that fetus is a human being? A dead body also has all this, its own sex, its own blood type, its own DNA.

And since the procedure of abortion ENDS THE LIFE of the fetus, which is ITS OWN HUMAN, then what do you conclude?

You are just saying that alley, you haven’t proved anything.

A persons right to life trumps a persons right to liberty. The right to life take precedence, in fact its the only absolute right that trumps the absolute right to liberty...

I agree with you, but again, the problem is we don’t know when the life begins, we don’t know at what stage it becomes a human life. At least that is what the scientists say.
 

In Between Man

The Biblical Position
Sep 11, 2008
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49° 19' N, 123° 4' W
Do you actually need someone in a lab coat to confirm everything to you?

I most certainly do, alley. When it comes to abortion (or indeed, anything to do with science or medicine), I listen to scientists, and not to Fundamentalist preachers or the Pope.

I'm implying that you decide when life begins for yourself. Scientists have philosophies, agendas, and opinions.

Does the fetus have its own sex? YES!

Does the fetus have its own blood type? YES!

Does the fetus have its own DNA? YES!


And how does that prove that fetus is a human being? A dead body also has all this, its own sex, its own blood type, its own DNA.

You have got to be kidding me! Is the fetus not in a stage of growth at any given time? Why not try being honest with yourself. Its alive and you know it.

And since the procedure of abortion ENDS THE LIFE of the fetus, which is ITS OWN HUMAN, then what do you conclude?

You are just saying that alley, you haven’t proved anything.

I'm not trying to prove anything. You know the fetus is alive.

A persons right to life trumps a persons right to liberty. The right to life take precedence, in fact its the only absolute right that trumps the absolute right to liberty...

I agree with you, but again, the problem is we don’t know when the life begins, we don’t know at what stage it becomes a human life. At least that is what the scientists say.

Life begins at stage 1 obviously, that's when growth and change starts.
 

SirJosephPorter

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Nov 7, 2008
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I'm implying that you decide when life begins for yourself. Scientists have philosophies, agendas, and opinions.

These are very complex issues alley, with no simple answer. I prefer to rely on experts in the field. After all, if I am ill and want to be treated, I don’t treat myself, I go to a doctor. It is always a good idea to consult the experts in any field. In the field of abortion, scientists, biologists, doctors are the experts, not Fundamentalist preachers or the Pope.

Quote:
Does the fetus have its own sex? YES!

Does the fetus have its own blood type? YES!

Does the fetus have its own DNA? YES!


And how does that prove that fetus is a human being? A dead body also has all this, its own sex, its own blood type, its own DNA. - SJP

You have got to be kidding me! Is the fetus not in a stage of growth at any given time? Why not try being honest with yourself. Its alive and you know it.

Alley, that is besides the point. You were advancing the three criteria (that fetus has its own sex, own blood type, own DNA) as proof that fetus is alive and a human being. To which I replied that it proves nothing of the sort, a dead body (human or non human) has all these things.

Now are you saying that because fetus is growing all the time that it is human? That doesn’t make sense.

I'm not trying to prove anything. You know the fetus is alive.

Sure I do, I have already said that life is a continuum, with no beginning or end. My question is, at what point is it human life? And if fetus is to be regarded as human being at conception, why not before the conception, why not show the same consideration to the sperm and the egg?

Life begins at stage 1 obviously, that's when growth and change starts.

There is no ‘obviously’ about it alley, life was present even before the stage 1. As I said, these are very complex and deep questions, with no simple answers.
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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"If God want's that child now, he will take him by Abortion or any other method.. Period.. Man does not decide, God does.. "- Sounds like B.S. to me. There are two children each needing a blood transfusion to go on living. One is a Jehovah's Witness while the other is a run of the mill human being. Of course the J.W. child dies. Are you going to attribute that to God? Would God select one child over another?

Depends on your point of view JLM... If the law intervened was it part of God's plan to keep him alive or if he dies was it his plan to bring him to heaven?

You believe what you want to believe.. Was it destiny or not ?

Now did the child live or not ?
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Depends on your point of view JLM... If the law intervened was it part of God's plan to keep him alive or if he dies was it his plan to bring him to heaven?

You believe what you want to believe.. Was it destiny or not ?

Now did the child live or not ?

Is physical reality real or a hologram? I believe it is a hologram, a Matrix. If I am right, this whole issue is moot.
 

Francis2004

Subjective Poster
Nov 18, 2008
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Is physical reality real or a hologram? I believe it is a hologram, a Matrix. If I am right, this whole issue is moot.

Perhaps Cliffy, I am not one who will judge if you are right or wrong..

For all I know you might be right on the mark.. But then again so could I or bluedog, gerryh, SJP, JLM or anyone else.