Gay Rights And The Bible

[SirJosephPorter]

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Unfortunately, If Cliffy were around at the time of Noah, he would be the last on board... We will keep praying.
Oh the post question!

God didn't give gays any rights in the Bible. Your reading the wrong one again. :fish:

Indeed. God also didn’t give any rights to witches, in fact he called on all Christians to actively seek out and kill witches (though shalt not suffer a witch to live, Exodus).

Now, to you that probably means that witches should be put to death and that homosexuals should be treated as second class citizens. To me, this proves that Bible is nonsense, just some book written by men 2000 years ago and reflects the morality and customs of 2000 years ago.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Well then we might as well legitimate all forms of gratification.. alcohol, drugs, masturbation, wife beating, masochism, sadism, etc. along with sodomy as being worthy of being celebrated as an expression of our 'beingness' as humans

By George, you got it, Coldstream, there is hope for you yet. The only one I have problem in the list is wife beating. That involves doing harm to another human being and is clearly illegal.

Any gratification that a human being seeks cannot come at the expense of another human being. You may have heard the saying, your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins. So wife beating is illegal and rightly so.

As to other vices you have mentioned, each to his own. What is wrong with alcohol, I myself indulge in it. As to drugs, there are arguments for legalizing them. And just what is wrong with masturbation? Does it make you blind?

Same with Sadism, masochism etc. As long is it is done between consenting adults, there is no coercion, it is strictly between those individuals and nobody’s business.

There is an interesting angle to it. Wife beating is wrong, of course. However, if wife is a masochist, husband is a sadist, and they indulge in corporal punishment, it is nobody’s business. As long as husband doesn’t hit his wife out of anger, but is part of the sexual foreplay (and wife doesn’t mind it, even likes it), it is between them and doesn’t concern anybody.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Quoting Cliffy
I support homosexuals as human beings and their right to be treated as human beings free from the judgmental ranting of religious fruit loops. The pope is just a guy with more authority in his mind than is actually warranted and has no business talking about or judging anything he knows nothing about. He should stick to subjects he is familiar with, like prostate problems and masturbation. Your god is a human construct and has no reality outside your religious beliefs.

OOOOooooooooooh Cliff- ouch- I got admonished this morning for less than that, so be prepared for a bucket load of sh*t down your neck and if I wasn't worried about a bucket full of sh*t, I'd be inclined to agree with you

What Cliffy says sound quite reasonable to me, JLM. You were admonished by whom, by one of the moderators? If so, then that is a problem. But if you were admonished by a poster, big deal, who cares? What Cliffy is saying makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Cliffy]

And just what is wrong with masturbation? Does it make you blind?

SirJoe,

I would like to see his palms (and five o'clock shadow is easy to spot.);-)

I'm reminded of a classic underground comic I had from the seventies called Binky Brown meets the Holy Virgin Mary. It was the story of a devout catholic boy who was obsessed with the Virgin but when he reached puberty stated having "impure thoughts" about her. He became very tormented and just about goes insane. He eventually grows up and realizes what a crock the whole thing was and steps away from the church. There is always hope that people like Coldstream will grow up, although I don't see that happening any time soon.

 

[JLM]

Quoting Cliffy
I support homosexuals as human beings and their right to be treated as human beings free from the judgmental ranting of religious fruit loops. The pope is just a guy with more authority in his mind than is actually warranted and has no business talking about or judging anything he knows nothing about. He should stick to subjects he is familiar with, like prostate problems and masturbation. Your god is a human construct and has no reality outside your religious beliefs.

OOOOooooooooooh Cliff- ouch- I got admonished this morning for less than that, so be prepared for a bucket load of sh*t down your neck and if I wasn't worried about a bucket full of sh*t, I'd be inclined to agree with you

What Cliffy says sound quite reasonable to me, JLM. You were admonished by whom, by one of the moderators? If so, then that is a problem. But if you were admonished by a poster, big deal, who cares? What Cliffy is saying makes perfect sense to me.

No, I got admonished by a fairly regular poster, who was with us on the other forum, but just in general terms he didn't elaborate specifically, just that I said I was wanting more proof before I accepted the Bible as gospel. (the moderators all know I speak only gospel truth) I think there's parts of the Bible that may well be true, it was written by a lot of people some probably very reliable and others just big bull sh*tters and then of course there is the tarrying at the local pub factor if in fact some of it was written there after a long day in the fields. I think what got me in deep doo doo earlier was the fact that I intimated I don't like having religion rammed down my throat. Anyway the Bible is a great book and would make good bedtime reading for the kids.

 

[Cliffy]

Anyway the Bible is a great book and would make good bedtime reading for the kids.

Sure, if you are into scaring the crap out of them. I guess you could discount all the mayhem in the OT and the book of revelations. That might minimize the trauma.

 

[petros]

If you sing the psalms in reverse Jerry Falwell will appear and hand out coupons for non-fat Starbucks lattes.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

If you sing the psalms in reverse Jerry Falwell will appear and hand out coupons for non-fat Starbucks lattes.

Petros, I thought he will hand out coupons for reserved seats in Heaven.

 

[petros]

Petros, I thought he will hand out coupons for reserved seats in Heaven.

Not unless he is a scalper from hell dressed as a Teletubbie.

***** monger's and tax evaders don't go to heaven, remember?

 

[JLM]

Sure, if you are into scaring the crap out of them. I guess you could discount all the mayhem in the OT and the book of revelations. That might minimize the trauma.

There's some good stuff in there too, like the book of Job to teach them patience.

 

[lone wolf]

Petros, I thought he will hand out coupons for reserved seats in Heaven.

No ... we still have to buy those.....

 

[SirJosephPorter]

There's some good stuff in there too, like the book of Job to teach them patience.

JLM, doesn’t Book of Job also imply that God and Lucifer are great buddies? They talk to each other like equals, Devil says that he wants to test Job.

Now, if God and Devil were really enemies, God would tell the Devil to get lost, would threaten to destroy the Devil unless he leaves Job alone. Rather than smiting him, God tells him to go ahead. I can just imagine God and Devil chewing fat over a pint of beer, deciding the fate of Job. Is that really the kind of lesson you want kids to learn from the Bible?

 

[In Between Man]

JLM, doesn’t Book of Job also imply that God and Lucifer are great buddies? They talk to each other like equals, Devil says that he wants to test Job.

Now, if God and Devil were really enemies, God would tell the Devil to get lost, would threaten to destroy the Devil unless he leaves Job alone. Rather than smiting him, God tells him to go ahead. I can just imagine God and Devil chewing fat over a pint of beer, deciding the fate of Job. Is that really the kind of lesson you want kids to learn from the Bible?

That's not what it teaches and that's not the lesson gained from it. Your just playing spin doctor till it fits your definition of Christianity.

 

[JLM]

JLM, doesn’t Book of Job also imply that God and Lucifer are great buddies? They talk to each other like equals, Devil says that he wants to test Job.

Now, if God and Devil were really enemies, God would tell the Devil to get lost, would threaten to destroy the Devil unless he leaves Job alone. Rather than smiting him, God tells him to go ahead. I can just imagine God and Devil chewing fat over a pint of beer, deciding the fate of Job. Is that really the kind of lesson you want kids to learn from the Bible?

You're probably right, my knowledge of the Bible was learned about 55 years ago, all I can remember about Job was a lot of tragedies and tribulations. I'd forgotten all about Satan even being in the picture.

 

[JLM]

JLM, doesn’t Book of Job also imply that God and Lucifer are great buddies? They talk to each other like equals, Devil says that he wants to test Job.

Now, if God and Devil were really enemies, God would tell the Devil to get lost, would threaten to destroy the Devil unless he leaves Job alone. Rather than smiting him, God tells him to go ahead. I can just imagine God and Devil chewing fat over a pint of beer, deciding the fate of Job. Is that really the kind of lesson you want kids to learn from the Bible?

Maybe God and the Devil are the personification of black and white which in reality doesn't happen anyway, so maybe it's a good lesson for kids after all.

 

[JLM]

That's not what it teaches and that's not the lesson gained from it. Your just playing spin doctor till it fits your definition of Christianity.

Hey, I'm willing to give you equal time with S.J. and Cliffy but beyond shooting down their points you have to give the correct answer as you see it. I'm an old codger who has forgotten a lot but I need to see proof. Denying their statements isn't proof.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

You're probably right, my knowledge of the Bible was learned about 55 years ago, all I can remember about Job was a lot of tragedies and tribulations. I'd forgotten all about Satan even being in the picture.

As I remember, Devil approached God and said that he wanted to test the faith of Job. God told him to go ahead, do his worst. Whereupon the Devil rained down calamity after calamity upon poor, unsuspecting Job. Job didn’t know what hit him.

 

[petros]

Perhaps God and Satan are one in the same? Might need to spike the holy water with remeron, it is supposed to alleviate both multi-personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder according to the pamphlet.

 

[In Between Man]

Hey, I'm willing to give you equal time with S.J. and Cliffy but beyond shooting down their points you have to give the correct answer as you see it. I'm an old codger who has forgotten a lot but I need to see proof. Denying their statements isn't proof.

The details of how Satan and God interacted isn't the point to the story. When God lifted his protection and Job faced tribulations, Job still thanked God for surrounding him with his favor. He thanked God for what he still had, God's love and mercy. Satan thought Job would curse God, but Job was patient and obviously had a very strong resolve. Instead of blaming God for his problems he thanked God for delivering him from his problems -- *while facing* the adversity itself. He believed by faith that God would bring him to victory over his circumstances.

And God did. Job lost everything and was blessed twice fold.

There's lots of good lessons from this story, but the main point is this: Don't blame God for your problems, LET HIM deliver you from your problems.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Let him deliver you? God caused the problems, or allowed the devil to cause them, in the first place. This is your just and loving god? Job's is a story of entrapment.

The only sensible lesson I can take from the story of Job is that there are reasons for our suffering that we're not allowed to know. I think that's crap; it's pretending to have an explanation when you don't. It's the old problem of evil, of bad things happening to good people, that no religion promoting a just and loving deity has ever been able to explain. Note how the story ends with god berating Job for questioning him, asking, where were you when I did this and that and the other and can you match it? What he's really saying is "I can do whatever I want, there's nothing you can do about it, l and I don't have to explain myself, because I'm GOD. Suck it up."

Living creatures suffer because the universe is utterly indifferent to them. There's no god in it. That's a much simpler explanation, and consistent with all known facts.

But as long as you're willing to try explaining such mysterious cruelty from the deity, perhaps you could explain the story in 2 Kings where god sends a couple of bears to maul 42 children to death for the apparently capital crime of making fun of Elisha's baldness.