Quit picking on Obama……

ironsides

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The U.S. Banking system did prove itself resilient and has seemed to have bounced back and because of them it looks like we are on the way to recovery.

Ironsides, if that does happen (and I hope it does happen), that will be bad news for Republicans indeed. If economy improves, Republicans cannot take success in 2010 elections for granted.

Normally they would be expected to pick up around 25 House seats and 3 or 4 Senate seats in 2010. However, Republicans better get their act together (which they don’t have at present), otherwise the expected gains may not materialize if economy is on the mend.

I agree with you totally. If we are on a long term recovery as you mentioned before Obama and the Democrats will get most of the credit just because they were in power. Doesn't really matter if they did anything or not, not a criticism just a comment.

I still cannot blame Bush for everything that has happened to the economy, he may have not done much to stop it, it has been coming for a long time. He was, though the man in the bubble when everything blew apart and like Obama deserving or not gets the blame or in Obama's place the credit for it.
The Republicans have to get something going or the U.S. will become a one party state for a few years.

This video clearly shows that George Bush warned Congress starting in 2001, that this economic crisis was Coming, if something was not done. But Congress refused to listen, along with the arrogant Congressman, Barney Frank.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&NR=1

No one could believe this could happen back then.


Why the double video??



 
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SirJosephPorter

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Wasn't the US Supreme Court's decision after a long battle within the Florida's Supreme Court?

Indeed, it was, A4noOB. But what I said was correct, US Supreme Court didn’t ordered a single recount, it stopped the ones ordered by Florida Supreme Court and handed the election to Bush, their buddy.

I think this information can be verified by: Washington Post-ABC News Poll August 5, 2007 (washingtonpost.com) Bush's approval ratings weren't much different from Obama's.

We have already covered this ground. I was writing from memory, and I remembered one poll which showed Bush approval rating in the 40s. And there indeed was one poll which showed his approval rating at 47% (and there were a few others which showed his approval rating at 50% or less, just prior to 9/11).

Washington post clearly does not list all the polls; it only lists the polls commissioned by them. Check out posts # 140 to 143.

Please bring to my attention whenever these issues dear to right wing Republicans were ever raised by George Bush Senior. Bush Senior came from the North Eastern part of United States were "Republicanism" has a very liberal tone. Don't confuse George Bush Senior, with Bush Junior who indeed was a "born again" Christian and vocalized these issues so important to right wingers.

Bush senior started out as a moderate Republican. Indeed, when Reagan picked him as his VP, he could rightly be described as a moderate. However, he veered sharply to the right when he decided to run for presidency. He became strongly prolife. He kept the abortion pill, RU 486 from gaining federal approval, it was finally granted during Clinton era. He enacted several anti-abortion policies (revival of ‘Mexico policy’ being one of them).

Perot was pro choice. He said so several times during the campaign, in reply to a direct question. Abortion issue is very important to right wingers. Do you really think any right winger is going to abandon Bush, a strongly prolife candidate in favour of Perot, a pro choice candidate?

The kind of voter who switched from Bush to Perot was somebody who strongly disapproved of the way Bush handled the economy, and did not care strongly enough about abortion issue. That is a moderate, not a right winger.

During the Republican Primary, the two politicians who were challenging each other were Patrick Buchanan and Bush Senior. Although Bush Senior won the primary election, his image was destroyed.

I don’t know that his image was destroyed. Buchanan won the New Hampshire primary, but won little else. And yes, right wingers were unhappy with Bush. But then they usually are unhappy with the Republican candidate. Usually he is not conservative enough for them, he is a RINO (Republican In Name Only), he is a compromiser and so on. They always huff and puff initially.

However, when they see the Democratic candidate, they get so spooked, so scared that they hurriedly fall behind the Republican candidate. The same thing happened with McCain. Right wing base was unhappy with him. But when they saw Obama, they got scared, perhaps even panicked, and fell in line behind McCain. McCain did very well among the base; he lost support among the moderates.

It was the same with Bush. Sure, the base was unhappy with him in the primaries. But they were so scared of Clinton that they ended up supporting Bush massively.

Anyway, I just can’t believe that a right winger would vote for prochoice Perot rather than prolife Bush.

Liberal media outlets like the NYTimes are garbage at best.

That is your opinion; let us agree to disagree on this. Sure New York Times has made mistakes, which newspaper hasn’t? The difference is when New York Times makes mistakes; it is big news everywhere, precisely because it has such a sterling reputation. If Grimy Gulch Herald makes a mistake, nobody cares. But if new York Times makes mistakes, it is big news. In spite of the occasional error, I think New York Times is a very reputable, very respectable publication.
 

ironsides

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I have some family members who thought he could literally walk on water and was going to cure the ills of the world. (Socialists academia side).
 

SirJosephPorter

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I agree with you totally. If we are on a long term recovery as you mentioned before Obama and the Democrats will get most of the credit just because they were in power. Doesn't really matter if they did anything or not, not a criticism just a comment.

I agree with you, ironsides. It is very difficult to say if a particular policy helped or hurt the economy. Normally it depends upon one’s personal biases. I have made this point before.

Thus, let us assume economy turns around. Did Obama’s policies help or hurt? We don’t know. Without Obama’s policies, recovery may have been much quicker; we have no way of knowing.

Or let us assume Obama’s policies fail, and we remain in deep recession for years to come. Did Obama’s policies help or hurt? Again, we don’t know. Without Obama’s policies, we may have plunged into a depression, we don’t know.

So it is very difficult to say if any particular policy helped or hurt the economy. That is why the method people use is as good as any. Whatever happens during a President’s watch, he gets the blame or the credit for it.

Also, I think there can be a general agreement that huge deficits are not good for the economy. When Bush converted huge surpluses into huge deficits, it was clearly a foolhardy thing to do.
 

ironsides

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Obama never did pretend to have a magic bullet- he said fixing the economy would take a lot of work and years to do it- I specifically recall his saying that it might not be possible in one term. So anyone who was supporting him that figured it was going to be fixed in a couple of months is an abject idiot. Obama sadly doesn't have much control over who supports him. That is one of the problems of the democratic system- a "dumb" vote counts just as much as an "informed" vote and I'm not convinced that is Democratic.


I know he never pretended to have a magic bullet, but I have a couple family members who thought he could literally walk on water and was going to cure the ills of the world. (Socialists academia side). One has had a change of heart and moved to a liberal stance. There kids who think they will change the world. Reality will hit soon.
 

ironsides

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"Also, I think there can be a general agreement that huge deficits are not good for the economy. When Bush converted huge surpluses into huge deficits, it was clearly a foolhardy thing to do."

Definatly a foolhardy thing to do.
 

SirJosephPorter

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There kids who think they will change the world. Reality will hit soon.

That is expected of youth, ironsides. They are expected to be idealistic. As you say, reality will set in soon enough, but let them enjoy a few years of being idealistic.

I have already mentioned that my son used to support NDP (party of the left). Now he is a card carrying member of the Liberal Party. My hope is that he stops there and does not move any further to the right.
 

Cannuck

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This video clearly shows that George Bush warned Congress starting in 2001, that this economic crisis was Coming, if something was not done. But Congress refused to listen, along with the arrogant Congressman, Barney Frank.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&NR=1

People that blame Bush for the economic problems we are seeing now, are wrong. It's as simple as that. They are either uninformed, misinformed or ideologues.
 

JLM

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People that blame Bush for the economic problems we are seeing now, are wrong. It's as simple as that. They are either uninformed, misinformed or ideologues.

That's my contention- economics while they may be influenced to some degree by politicians are pretty well set by things like supply and demand and markets in general. A single politician would have very little effect on it, probably about as much as the weather. While a politician has to take the heat for stuff that happens under his watch, that only satisfies the aspect of casting blame, but does NOTHING to address the problem.
 

Cannuck

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Addressing the problem is not important to some people. Casting blame is. These people would do well in politics.
 

Cliffy

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Politics is a form of religion to many and as about as meaningful. I find both highly amusing. Another proof that aliens screwed monkeys.
 
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SirJosephPorter

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That's my contention- economics while they may be influenced to some degree by politicians are pretty well set by things like supply and demand and markets in general. A single politician would have very little effect on it, probably about as much as the weather. While a politician has to take the heat for stuff that happens under his watch, that only satisfies the aspect of casting blame, but does NOTHING to address the problem.

That may be so, JLM, but the president in office invariably gets the blame, and rightly so. And the right wing does the same thing. When it is their president, Bush to blame, of course they get all high and mighty, claiming that it is not really the poor guy’s fault, that economy is influenced by factors beyond the control of the president etc.

However, during the 1980 election the right wing was singing an entirely different tune. Then the economic downturn, the recession was entirely the fault of Carter. He single handedly brought on the recession. Reagan swept to power largely by blaming Carter for the recession.

Same thing here, Obama came to power largely by blaming Bush and McCain for the recession. But the right wing is singing a totally different tune here; it was the fault of everybody except Bush (the right has even blamed Obama for the downturn, claiming that he talked down the economy in order to get elected).

If Obama’s policies work out, the right wing will sing the same tune as it is doing now, it will claim that recovery was caused by factors entirely beyond Obama’s control. If Obama’s economic policies do not work out, however, then in 2012 campaign the right wing will against sing the same tune as 1980, the economic recession will be entirely Obama’s fault. The right wouldn’t’ even entertain the thought that anybody except Obama may have something to do, may have contributed to the economic downturn.

It is all part of the politics. Average voter is not partisan that way. In 1980 election, average voter blamed Carter, in 2008, she blamed Bush. In 2012, she will blame Obama if things don’t work out (or credit him if they do).
 

CDNBear

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That may be so, JLM, but the president in office invariably gets the blame, and rightly so. And the right wing does the same thing. When it is their president, Bush to blame, of course they get all high and mighty, claiming that it is not really the poor guy’s fault, that economy is influenced by factors beyond the control of the president etc.

However, during the 1980 election the right wing was singing an entirely different tune. Then the economic downturn, the recession was entirely the fault of Carter. He single handedly brought on the recession. Reagan swept to power largely by blaming Carter for the recession.

Same thing here, Obama came to power largely by blaming Bush and McCain for the recession. But the right wing is singing a totally different tune here; it was the fault of everybody except Bush (the right has even blamed Obama for the downturn, claiming that he talked down the economy in order to get elected).

If Obama’s policies work out, the right wing will sing the same tune as it is doing now, it will claim that recovery was caused by factors entirely beyond Obama’s control. If Obama’s economic policies do not work out, however, then in 2012 campaign the right wing will against sing the same tune as 1980, the economic recession will be entirely Obama’s fault. The right wouldn’t’ even entertain the thought that anybody except Obama may have something to do, may have contributed to the economic downturn.

It is all part of the politics. Average voter is not partisan that way. In 1980 election, average voter blamed Carter, in 2008, she blamed Bush. In 2012, she will blame Obama if things don’t work out (or credit him if they do).
And then there's those that understand what's actually going on. The ones that read everything, no matter the beliefs of the person writing them. That way they understand and get all the facts.

That way they can place the blame squarely on those that caused it, ie: Clinton's repeal of financial laws and Bush's ridiculous waste of the surplus.

Now, who's going to fix it? Obama? I doubt that. If he was, he would have read his stimulus bill more carefully. He would have reversed Clinton's actions.

Once again, proving professional politicians are pretty much as useless, as the shills that exholt their virtues.