Pope’s Message a Dismal Failure in USA.

[Niflmir]

Isn’t that precisely what I said in my thread? Catholics by and large don’t agree with many of Church’s teachings. They are more liberal, more tolerant, more progressive than non Catholics, according to the Gallop poll.

I think what the gallop poll says is: the way that the Vatican identifies Catholics is generally not a good indicator of belief.

One can essentially take it as evidence that their numbers are artificial. Their (the Vatican's) modern tolerance of heresy is merely a hypocritical tool to keep the numbers large at the expense of having poor correlation between the church's teachings and the actual opinions of those so (poorly) enumerated.

 

[Spade]

You are right, SJP. If it were up to ordinary Catholics - the laity - there would be a relaxation of marriage restrictions for clergy in the Latin Rite, women would be permitted to become priests, contraception would be emphasized as an individual's choice -as a matter of freedom of conscience, and so on. It matters little, if at the parish level, one can argue with the parish priest, if those sentiments are ignored by the hierarchy and the Vatican, if liberal theologians are stripped of their teaching rights, if bishops become conservative shills... (Bishop Henry's move in Calgary, for example, prohibiting Catholic Teachers from contributing to the Stephen Lewis Foundation). Vatican II is all but forgotten.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

It would be nice if everyone just got away from these denominational religions and just followed the wisdom of the Bible. You think people would clue in the minute they are asked for money. Had a J.W. at the door yesterday,but she didn't stay long!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am afraid it is not that simple, JLM. Which wisdom of Bible do you follow, ‘love thy neighbour’, or ‘thou shalt not suffer a witch to live’? Death to homosexuals, or ‘do unto others as you would want others to do unto you?’ Homosexuals, fornicators deserve to go to Hell, or ‘judge not, lest thou shalt be judged’?

I have said it before, bible (and Koran) say contradictory things at the same time. It is not easy to follow the wisdom of the Bible, because, it doesn’t exist.



Incidentally, J.W. don't as for money, do they?

 

[JLM]

True, using a little common sense when interpreting the Bible won't do you any harm, you also have to put in context the era it was written in, when the likes of witches were considered evil. I'm not sure if J.W.s ask for money per se- they just sell you their literature or at least they used to but hey I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON THEM in any way shape or form except to know they are a BLOODY NUISANCE.

 

[Cannuck]

Ah! You were just trying to pick his nose then!

Not at all. He doesn't read my posts. I'm just using his logic to show people like yourself how silly it is. It's a service I perform that helps people avoid being sucked into the vortex. You're welcome BTW.

 

[Cannuck]

But, my experience with the Church has been that the dogma of the Vatican doesn't always equal the hearts of the congregations. There is dissent, disagreement.

Isn’t that precisely what I said in my thread?

On this thread maybe. You have been quite demeaning to Catholics and, in fact, all religionus folk throughout the other religion bashing threads that are here. What is interesting is how your opinion of Catholics has done a 180 ever since I posted that Trudeau (your hero) was Catholic. It really makes one think that you actually do read my posts.

 

[Cannuck]

I have said it before, bible (and Koran) say contradictory things at the same time.

No it doesn't. If you took the time to read and understand what it was saying, you would know that. You are doing exactly what you criticize others for doing...cherry picking one line out of the book to try and justify your position. Congratulations, you are now one and the same with most televangelists.

 

[gerryh]

I am afraid it is not that simple, JLM. Which wisdom of Bible do you follow, ‘love thy neighbour’, or ‘thou shalt not suffer a witch to live’? Death to homosexuals, or ‘do unto others as you would want others to do unto you?’ Homosexuals, fornicators deserve to go to Hell, or ‘judge not, lest thou shalt be judged’?

I have said it before, bible (and Koran) say contradictory things at the same time. It is not easy to follow the wisdom of the Bible, because, it doesn’t exist.



Incidentally, J.W. don't as for money, do they?

I think I would like you to back this up by doing some quoting.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

True, using a little common sense when interpreting the Bible won't do you any harm, you also have to put in context the era it was written in, when the likes of witches were considered evil. I'm not sure if J.W.s ask for money per se- they just sell you their literature or at least they used to but hey I'M NOT AN EXPERT ON THEM in any way shape or form except to know they are a BLOODY NUISANCE.

That is the problem, isn’t it? When you talk of interpreting the Bible, then the question arises, whose interpretation is the correct one? Who decides?

Thus in medieval Europe they burned countless number of women as witches, they were following the Biblical diktat to the letter. Are you saying that their interpretation was wrong? Then what gives you the right to decide that their interpretation was wrong?

The fact is, Bible says both, love thy neighbour, and Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Some take the first saying to heart, some do the second. Bible and Koran are both very amorphous books. Rather than learning from those books, most people simply read support for their own prejudices, their own biases into those books.

Incidentally, J.W. don’t ask you for any money, they try to sell their magazine, Watch Tower. It costs perhaps 25 or 30 cents; I don’t know what the current going rate is. But other than that, they don’t ask you for money, they are just a nuisance.

 

[Cliffy]

JWs are a pyramid scheme. The Watch Tower society is a printing business and members have to pay for their copies of all printed material. They also take a cut off every copied sold to those they sign up to join the organization. Amway learned the trick from the JWs who have been around since 1840s or so. I think it is hysterical - the original capitalists. No wonder they can all afford to dress so welll.

 

[Cannuck]

The fact is, Bible says both, love thy neighbour, and Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Some take the first saying to heart, some do the second. Bible and Koran are both very amorphous books. Rather than learning from those books, most people simply read support for their own prejudices, their own biases into those books.

Which is what you are doing. You are cherry picking from the bible, which is what the witch burners did. I don't want to get into a bible quotefest but, there are a number of places in the bible where the idea of replacing the old covenant with the new is mentioned. At the last supper Jesus spoke (according to the bible) of "the new covenant". If you are going to get into a discussion about what the bible does or doesn't say, perhaps you should take the time to read it. Actually, you don't even have to go that far on this particular issue. You could probably google "what Jesus said about the old testament" and educate yourself.

 

[gerryh]

Which is what you are doing. You are cherry picking from the bible which is what the witch burners did. I don't want to get into a bible quotefest but there are a number of places in the bible where the idea of replacing the old covenant with the new is mention. At the last supper Jesus spoke (according to the bible) of "the new covenant". If you are going to get into a discussion about what the bible does or doesn't say, perhaps you should take the time to read it. Actually, you don't even have to go that far on this particulat issue. You could probably google "what jesus said about the old testament" and educate yourself.

why are you giving him an out?????????????????????????????????????????

 

[Cannuck]

why are you giving him an out?????????????????????????????????????????

Some people need to learn to crawl before they can walk. I don't want to overload the poor bugger.

 

[Trex]

The Cardinals College had a tough time electing Benedict.

The Vatican knows the Catholic Church is losing ground.
The only place left with the potential to gain a large amount of converts is South/Central America and Africa.
Asia is unknown and difficult to penetrate for the Church.

Most educated Catholics in the Western Word practice a "pick and choose" style of religion.
They have to really.
The Vatican is all to well aware of modern events and educational systems.
Jean Paul was an inclusive and moderate Pope.
However his reign did not result in increased growth or support in the Western Word.

Ratzinger was a known hard liner with strict unyielding views.
The Vatican picked him with a view to attract more converts in developing countries at the expense of loosing a few educated Catholics in the West.

Too bad in my view.
But hey I'm not even Catholic.

Trex

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Ratzinger was a known hard liner with strict unyielding views.
The Vatican picked him with a view to attract more converts in developing countries at the expense of loosing a few educated Catholics in the West.

Trex, Catholic Church is like tobacco industry. Now that the market for their product is shrinking in the west, they are turning more and more to other places to promote their product.

 

[gerryh]

Porter....you still haven't backed up your assertion that the Bible is full of contradictions.

 

[darkbeaver]

Morning Gerry.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Porter....you still haven't backed up your assertion that the Bible is full of contradictions.

Perhaps not to your satisfaction (and you are free to believe what you like), but I have, to my satisfaction. Let me recap. Bible says the following:

Love thy neighbour; Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. These are opposites. If not exact opposites (like clean and unclean, or belief and unbelief for instance), at least opposite in spirit.

Death to homosexuals and the golden rule (do unto others as you wish them unto you) are opposites, again in spirit, if not in letters.

To condemn homosexuals, fornicators to Hell (as Bible does) and then to say ‘judge not lest thou shalt be judged’ are exact opposites.

Now, it is quite possible you may be able to somehow wiggle out, claming that they are not really opposites, or they are quoted out of context, that one has to look for the broader meaning, whatever. But the point is, they are opposites.

Indeed, when Mother Teresa, Jimmy Carter on one hand, and Savonarola, Torquemada on the other claim to be Christians, it is clear that Bible has to be made of opposites. Individuals more opposite in outlook, deed or belief cannot be imagined.

 

[darkbeaver]

It's hard to tell if those are real contrdictions or just apparent contradictions used as some sort of interest instilling gimick to drive book sales. It does need some editing though, there is lots of sex and war and action to work with, I bet Speilbrick could do something with it.

 

[mabudon]

there should be a film starring Sam Jackson called "The mother F%#@ing BIBLE"