Our news is lying to us about the Gaza conflict

Zzarchov

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You know what, Im not entirely sure the Juice shouldn't have been put to death, he obviously did it.

His celebrity just got him off the hook in a circus of a trial, this young man is obviously still upset about it.

Keep up the good fight! Go to hell OJ!
 

Zzarchov

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Not all Muslims say that.... that's a generalized perspective based on the entire religion due to a select few extremists.

It's no different then generalizing all Christians based on the KKK

Remind me again, when those KKK nutbags started bombing churches to keep blacks from voting and getting their own representatives in regions they were the majority (or emigrating to different parts of the country to form majorities)

How did we (The west) treat them again? Did we label them as freedom fighters who faced a disproportiante response from the government or did we label them terrorists and hunt them down in giant sting operations, villifying them as the subhuman filth they are to this very day.

Im apparently a little fuzzy over how the KKK panned out and whether or not the military was sent into keep white folks at bay (as if they were all terrorists) while black children went to school.
 

Praxius

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Remind me again, when those KKK nutbags started bombing churches to keep blacks from voting and getting their own representatives in regions they were the majority (or emigrating to different parts of the country to form majorities)

Now you're just trying to split hairs between different types of violence based on different perspectives of what a religion teaches someone.... I don't give a rats ass if the KKK Bombed churches or plucked people's eyes out with spoons..... they as a collective have targeted those that were not like them and they terrorized, lynched, hung, burned, etc etc. all for the sake that those they attack were a threat to their lives and were not equal to them.

Different tactics, same damn mentality.

And if you want a bombing comparison, once again, see my example of those abortion clinics that have been bombed in the past.

Isolated incidents? Depends on who you ask..... the mentality remains the same.

How did we (The west) treat them again? Did we label them as freedom fighters who faced a disproportiante response from the government or did we label them terrorists and hunt them down in giant sting operations, villifying them as the subhuman filth they are to this very day.

Funny, they still exist.... they still have their organizations and I don't remember hearing of any cases in the last god knows how many years of them ever being "Hunted Down."

Do we label them as freedom fighters? Do you label the Muslim cab driver or the Muslim walking down the street as freedom fighters.... or do you just flat out call them a terrorist because you're so ignorant?

Exactly wtf does that have to do with anything, seriously?

The US sure didn't have a problem calling the Taliban in Afghanistan "Freedom Fighters" when it suited their best interests.

Freedom Fighter.... Terrorist..... it's all very subjective depending on what side you think you are on.

I used very clear and detailed explinations on how certain extremists in any religious culture can easily brand the entire religion evil.... it all depends on your own perspective on what you believe.

Most here in the "West" won't generalize all of Christianity as evil and a terrorist organization, simply because we're surrounded by them everywhere we go. We've become acustomed to their extremist idiocy and thus we tend to down play their words and actions as some isolated goon...... but it's a totally different situation when you have a culture and religion you have no education or first hand experience with...... they look like a large group of nut jobs out to kill everyone.

And the more you remain ignorant and the more fearmongering and hype you give them, the more media attention and popularity comes their way and more join up, making it look even bigger until you have a paranoia that they will attack, so you make an excuse to attack first.

^ Then more see the injustice being done on them, more have sympathy for their cause, and some get sucked into their own BS amongst all of what is happening..... then you have a bigger problem.

All because some people had to stick their damn noses where it didn't belong and try to force their ways apon them.

Yet in balance, if it wasn't for people like myself and others who don't believe in Christianity and all of the BS that comes with it..... chances are Christians would have had free range over North America and this whole area would be very much identical to the Middle East. Extremists would have no difficulties in getting their voices heard, others would join them, laws would be all switched towards what follows in the bible which is flawed in itself and missiles would be flying back and forth years ago.

Im apparently a little fuzzy over how the KKK panned out and whether or not the military was sent into keep white folks at bay (as if they were all terrorists) while black children went to school.

The military wasn't sent in to keep white folks at bay, because white folks and their views were trivialized by other white folk.

That is my point..... although each example I provided shows many levels of extremist views.... the extremists here in North America are usually left off with a slap on the wrist, while when you look accross the pond to people you have no clue about.... They must be destroyed :roll:

In fact, chances are that if someone blew up an abortionist clinic tomorrow over their religious views and "What God told them to do" they'd be charged under regular criminal laws and perhaps get their head checked....... Oh but if a Muslim blew up a clinic of whatever kind for whatever reason..... he or she would instantly be labeled a terrorist and sent off to be tortured in some unknown country for months until they confess..... then wait years still before they ever goto trial.

Makes sense any?

I noticed you avoided all the other christian religious extremists I pointed out..... what's the matter? Still thinking of a way to discount those?
 
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normbc9

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There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides of this issue. One fact that does matter is the outside interference that takes place daily. The fact that other Arab governmebnts are doing there best to stay clear of this current tragedy tells me that they are hoping to see Hamas become history soon. The Hezbollah and Hamas models are a threat to all the Arab governments.
 

Zzarchov

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You do know that the KKK is a terrorist organization and that in many regions they can be shot on sight right Praxius? Im guessing you don't know that tidbit.

I also don't know where you get this crap that I call people terrorists because they are muslim? This has nothing to do with religion, if It did I guess I'd have to be against Israel, since Israel has so many Muslims in it, also being hit by rocket attacks, also calling for the invasion of Gaza and also being on the frontline invading Gaza.

This is often brought up by the ignorant as some kind of war between Judaism and Islam in some kind of Religious war.

This is a war between theocracy and liberal democracy, and even those of the "right" religion don't really want to live in a theocracy. Does Israel give alot more support to Judaism than Islam or Christianity? Hell yes, they are the majority of the population.

And in Canada and the USA we get Christmas and Easter off. Our head of state is the head of a Christian Church and our rights are granted to us in our charter of rights and freedoms by god. Hell its only recently we decided atheists were fit parents.

Now there is a nationhood question at play here. And if the rockets had come from the west bank (which is occupied) I might have more sympathy for cause and effect of occupation and rocket launches.

But it came from Gaza, which has no settlements and no occupation. Yes its under embargo, but get used to it, you don't have a right to trade with others. Go whine on Cuba's shoulder about how bad it is.
 

Praxius

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You do know that the KKK is a terrorist organization and that in many regions they can be shot on sight right Praxius? Im guessing you don't know that tidbit.

First I ever heard of it.... maybe you should tell those KKK guys at their public rallies about that.

Interesting that I come accross this:

Ku Klux Klan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Several members of KKK-affiliated groups were convicted of manslaughter and murder in the deaths of civil rights workers and children in the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church in Alabama, the assassination of NAACP organizer Medgar Evers, and the murders of three civil rights workers in Mississippi. Today, researchers estimate there may be more than 150 Klan chapters with 5,000-8,000 members nationwide. The U.S. government classifies them as hate groups, with operations in separated small local units."

I see they're classified as a Hate Group, but not a Terrorist Organization. They bomb a church and they're just a simple Hate Group? :roll: This is exactly what I was talking about, so thanks for backing up my claims about the Western bias against the same violent actions.

And this also caught my eye which confirms my memory of seeing them reported on TV:

"The ACLU has provided legal support to various factions of the KKK in defense of their First Amendment rights to hold public rallies, parades, and marches, and their right to field political candidates."

It'd be kind of problematic if you were permitted to shoot a KKK member on sight and you rounded the corner to see hundreds of them in a rally.

Best of luck to you..... I'm sure you'll need it.

Perhaps you could supply some backing information to confirm what you claim? When I searched all I found was the above that confirmed what I already said.

I also don't know where you get this crap that I call people terrorists because they are muslim? This has nothing to do with religion, if It did I guess I'd have to be against Israel, since Israel has so many Muslims in it, also being hit by rocket attacks, also calling for the invasion of Gaza and also being on the frontline invading Gaza.

My comments about calling Muslims Terrorists came from the comments made by Risus with:

"When muslims say that their goal is to have islam rule the world, and kill all non muslims (infidals), I have a problem with that and support all countries defending themselves from them...."

^ I commented on the extremists who paint that picture who also usually turn out to be labeled terrorists and then compared them to similar factions within the Christian religion who if generalized the same way can make all Christians look like evil terrorist jerk wads.....

Then you jumped into the conversation and I just simply went along with what I was already talking about, at the same time attempting to address your own comments.

You can try and twist and skew this like you always attempt to do with me, but you should be aware by now that I have already been down this road with you on a number of occasions in the past and they all ended up with me having to correct you after three pages of this type of conversation because you fogot what was originally said.

The KKK was one of many other examples I decided to use..... how about you drop the KKK crap for a bit and perhaps we can get back to the original topic?

This is often brought up by the ignorant as some kind of war between Judaism and Islam in some kind of Religious war.

See, you already forgot what the KKK thing was all about in this topic. I don't give two craps about those redneck Spy vs. Spy wannabes. I don't even care about "the war between Islam and Judaism."

I used them as an example to explain why some people do believe there is or fear that one religion is out to get them.

Then you took the whole damn thing out of context, thought I believed what I was explaining, which some others believe (In order for a correction) and then started this whole crap about the KKK.

I don't care about the KKK or the ISLAM / CHRISTIAN / JEWISH / SMURF Religious conflict propaganda that I just explained others believe in.

Drop it and move back onto the topic please.

This is a war between theocracy and liberal democracy, and even those of the "right" religion don't really want to live in a theocracy. Does Israel give alot more support to Judaism than Islam or Christianity? Hell yes, they are the majority of the population.

Doesn't matter, they are not all of the population and nobody even mentioned or brought into question which religious sect Israel supports more. This isn't a war between theocracy or democracy, this is a war over land, homes, places where generations of families used to live, it's about oppression, it's about people needing aid, food, medical treatment, it's a war over who stole who's home..... it's a war over who attacked who first and who is more justified.

This isn't a simple black and white war situation between ideologies..... that is only a small part of the overall spectrum and to simply trivialize it and you have above shown who's the ignorant one if you claim it's just a war between theocracy and liberal democracy.

And in Canada and the USA we get Christmas and Easter off. Our head of state is the head of a Christian Church and our rights are granted to us in our charter of rights and freedoms by god. Hell its only recently we decided atheists were fit parents.

Oh yeah wonderful, I feel so tingly and happy for the Christians to be ever so generous with what they deem is right and wrong.

Christians can suck a lump of crap out of my arse in that respect. Church and State should always remain seperated.... and our charter of rights and freedoms should be abolished and re-written to suit everybody, man, woman, child, and every religious belief there is out there.

The only reason why our charter and our head of state have such strong connections to Christianity, is for the very same reason Risus claimed towards Muslims. Christians tried to take over the world and FORCE their views and beliefs onto others around the world, so that it would be one big happy christian world. Much of this was done way back when people were drowned or burned for being witches.... usually because they didn't accept Christianity. (If you didn't accept it, you must be evil)

So don't go coming around here with your nose up in the air like Christians are king sh*t and pure, because they sure as hell are not.

So many people joined up to Christianity in very much the same way why people join Islam...... fear of torture, suffering and death if you didn't.

Now there is a nationhood question at play here. And if the rockets had come from the west bank (which is occupied) I might have more sympathy for cause and effect of occupation and rocket launches.

But it came from Gaza, which has no settlements and no occupation. Yes its under embargo, but get used to it, you don't have a right to trade with others. Go whine on Cuba's shoulder about how bad it is.

Which is also bullsh*t..... No other country has the right to tell another country if they are allowed to trade with other countries..... and locking them up, keeping them all bottled up in one location, not allowing other people, aid, food, decent supplies or development to come into Gaza is more then enough justification to bomb the hell out of Israel.

Israel has been slowly starving off people in Gaza and making their lives a living hell..... in desperate times, people will lash out, much as they are doing in Gaza and are fully justified.

Israel can kiss my ass for all I care about their problems..... they create their own problems and keep doing so, all the while crying and sobbing for sympathy from other nations.

The sick part is that other nations still suck it all up and give in to their corrupt ways.
 

Zzarchov

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How true. The oppressor has to lie to justify their actions, because what they are doing isn't justifiable.


Not true at all, the truth doesn't care about oppression or oppressors. About religious squabbles or land rights.

The truth doesn't take sides, it is cold, callous, hurtful and rarely something anyone wants.
 

Zzarchov

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@ prax: in 1870 the KKK were labelled a terrorist organization, and certain laws to terrorist organizations apply , especially in martial law regions.

modern KKK are actually offshoots that are "wink wink nudge nudge" homages to the original KKK, often incorporating nazi ideology.


As for "land for generations"

Ya, good for them. A bunch of settlers came to an undeveloped region, drove off the nomadic inhabitants of the region into little reservations and then settled down to set up a wealthy democracy.

Now you ask the grandkids and great grandkids of those settlers to take off.

As a Canadian, you know that all of this occurred at the same time we were doing the exact same stuff right?

Or did you never wonder why manitoba stopped being French, or why white people fill the whole region rather than natives?

So what about you, when you packing up and going "back" to Europe?
 

Zzarchov

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I'll admit, Im fairly dispassionate and can often be described as coldy logical. Appeals to emotion rarely work on persuading me one way or the other. Perhaps im secretly one of those reptilian illuminati types.

But being a machine sounds far cooler, as long as im easily upgradable.
 

Cannuck

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True enough. When are "we" in the west going to figure out that "they" (the Islamic world) just doesn't want us interfering in their affairs.

Probably about the same time that "we" learn that there is no "Islamic world".
 

Tyr

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There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides of this issue. One fact that does matter is the outside interference that takes place daily. The fact that other Arab governmebnts are doing there best to stay clear of this current tragedy tells me that they are hoping to see Hamas become history soon. The Hezbollah and Hamas models are a threat to all the Arab governments.

No side is "right" in the current conflict. This is one time I'm fine with just letting them have at it and deal with the aftermath.

The recent carnage in Gaza has left little doubt that within the tortured dynamic of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, both the chicken and the egg have completely and utterly lost their minds.
Regardless of who's to blame for the origins of the conflict, shame on both Hamas and Israel for their recent violations of international law that have led to a humanitarian inferno in Gaza and southern Israel.
Hamas is to be blamed for its sophomoric provocation of its neighbor's military wrath by firing missiles into southern Israel. Israel also should be condemned for its disproportionately inhumane onslaught in Gaza, which has currently left 555 people dead and 2,750 injured, according to Palestinian medical sources cited by CNN. The United Nations estimates that at least 25 percent of Palestinians killed have been civilians.
Simply put, both sides have committed acts tantamount to "war crimes," and both continue to violate international law repeatedly in this nightmare.
Under international law, the Geneva Conventions prohibit armed reprisals that intentionally inflict "collective punishment" against civilian populations as well as the targeting of nonmilitary targets.
Both Israel (with its military onslaught in Gaza) and Hamas (with its primitive rocket-firing into southern Israel) violate Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Conventions, which states: "No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited."
 

Zzarchov

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if only 1/4 of all deaths in a dense urban combat are civilians, honestly thats impressive and far better than any military could hope.

Im honestly having trouble believing the numbers are that low. Think about that, that means that if 550 people are dead,

430 are enemy soldiers... My head is a bit fuzzy, so my math may be off.
 

earth_as_one

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What kind of a monster considers killing civilians to be a good thing as long as the ratio remains low?

Also you don't know what you are talking about. Women and children are reported as civilians. It is unknown how many men are militants and how many are civilians.

Likely just as many men as women are also innocent civilians. Who is most likely to risk going for food for the children? Mom or Dad? If Dad gets killed, he is not classified as a civilian. His status is unknown.

Also its likely some of the women are militants.

So the real ratio is unknown.
 

Zzarchov

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What kind of a monster considers killing civilians to be a good thing as long as the ratio remains low?

Also you don't know what you are talking about. Women and children are reported as civilians. It is unknown how many men are militants and how many are civilians.

Likely just as many men as women are also innocent civilians. Who is most likely to risk going for food for the children? Mom or Dad? If Dad gets killed, he is not classified as a civilian. His status is unknown.

Also its likely some of the women are militants.

So the real ratio is unknown.


Well I'd love to hear your proof on that theory of how the UN reports casualties that way.

Because last I checked they don't auto-qualify men as militants and women as civilians.

And yes, if you are going to fight a war, lack of civilian casualties are impossible.

If you are going to arrest people with a police force, civilian casualties are unavoidable.

You have a bizarre fascination with this concept that somehow it is avoidable to harm the unintended in the use of force.

Never in human history has that ever occurred. In isolated events, sure, but roll enough dice and sooner or later you get snake eyes.

People die in war, thats why its bad. Maybe Palestinians should quit fighting if they don't want to get involved in a fight. But if they think the alternative to not fighting is worse than fighting then go to it. Then don't complain when your plan to "fight back" involves fighting.
 

Just the Facts

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What kind of a monster considers killing civilians to be a good thing as long as the ratio remains low?

Firing rockets is OK as long as casualties are low, right? Seems like a very similar logic.

Bottom line, war is hell. You may have heard that expression. There are always regrettable incidents in war. Case in point > more Israeli soldiers have been killed so far by Israeli troops then by Hamas.

That's why war is to be avoided. That's why you don't fire rockets at your neighbor for nine years straight. That's why you compromise on historical land disputes and find a way to get along.
 

earth_as_one

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Well I'd love to hear your proof on that theory of how the UN reports casualties that way.

Because last I checked they don't auto-qualify men as militants and women as civilians.

And yes, if you are going to fight a war, lack of civilian casualties are impossible.

If you are going to arrest people with a police force, civilian casualties are unavoidable.

You have a bizarre fascination with this concept that somehow it is avoidable to harm the unintended in the use of force.

Never in human history has that ever occurred. In isolated events, sure, but roll enough dice and sooner or later you get snake eyes.

People die in war, thats why its bad. Maybe Palestinians should quit fighting if they don't want to get involved in a fight. But if they think the alternative to not fighting is worse than fighting then go to it. Then don't complain when your plan to "fight back" involves fighting.

You should relisten to this press conference. It deals with many of your misperceptions. Especially from 5:45-7:25. It deals with how the UN comes out with civilian casualty numbers.

YouTube - NO! Hamas is NOT to Blame! Karen Abuzayd United Nations
 

earth_as_one

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Firing rockets is OK as long as casualties are low, right? Seems like a very similar logic.

Bottom line, war is hell. You may have heard that expression. There are always regrettable incidents in war. Case in point > more Israeli soldiers have been killed so far by Israeli troops then by Hamas.

That's why war is to be avoided. That's why you don't fire rockets at your neighbor for nine years straight. That's why you compromise on historical land disputes and find a way to get along.

Low as in 0 from the start of the truce until Israel began bombing Gaza and killing about 300 people, about 1/3 to 1/2 were civilians. Some were civilian police, but were counted as "armed militants" which I suppose is true technically.

So how many civilian deaths is proportional in response to 0 deaths?
 

Just the Facts

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Low as in 0 from the start of the truce until Israel began bombing Gaza and killing about 300 people, about 1/3 to 1/2 were civilians. Some were civilian police, but were counted as "armed militants" which I suppose is true technically.

So how many civilian deaths is proportional in response to 0 deaths?

Nice, uh, what did you call it...oh yeah... "talking point", but the world did not begin on June 19th.
 

earth_as_one

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Yes but the truce did. That truce was a chance for peace. Hamas held up its end of the truce/peace bargain, while Israel provoked a war, which means that our news has been lying to us about Hamas breaking the truce. Israel broke this truce and it never wanted peace. Now Israel has a war and its getting ugly. Israel is basically violating every convention of war. They are starving children, killing UN humanitarian workers and medics, using human shields.... Israel is certainly showing their true colors right now. If you can't see it, you must be color blind.