Time to cut wages

[Francis2004]

oh ya. btw. Almost impossible to be fired from. Miss work - no problem. Drunk or stoned at work - poor guy must be stressed, don't want to work - ok too

I will remember that as they hand me my layoff slip next month. No I don't do drugs or even drink.. Don't smoke either.. Life is strange that way.. I have missed one days work this year..

They don't call it fire anymore.. Its called being excess or obsolete, redundant or just not meeting numbers.. Strange how the terms have changed to meet the conditions..

 

[Risus]

Ei is 55% to a max $710 biweekly. Social Assistance is $536/mth

That is exactly my point. Who can live on that?

 

[Machjo]

Maybe there's a point to be made in increasing social assistance. Remember though that that will mean higher taxes to compensate if the government is responsible. Regardless how much money we give to social assistance though, unless the person genuinely cant' work, he should have to either work or go back to school for his assistance money, but certainly not sit around.

If the government absolutely has to create jobs, then why not give to UNICEF. This alone would have the following advantages:

1. It would lower the value of the Canadian dollar. The government gives money to UNICEF, and UNICEF has to sell Canadian dollars to buy local currency to give. This lowers the value of the Canadian dollar on foreign markets and so increases exports. Alternatively UNICEF buys Canadian products to give to the other country. This wouldn't lower the Canadian dollar necessarily but would still create jobs in whatever UNICEF needed to help the children.

2. It would provide elementary education and basic health care to many children at low cost. A heck of a lot better than to be subsidizing cars for middle class consumers.

Then whatever jobs are created from this either directly or indirectly, we train the laid off for them.

 

[tracy]

:lol:

oh. btw. Nurses in California make $578.21/day or $144,551.54/yr CAN which is more than some doctors make in Canada. Not a bad chaunk of change.

I guess that's why they "fled" Canada. Love of the money...I mean their work

:lol:I don't make that without doing A LOT of overtime. I think the flaw in your calculation is that you're assuming we work 5 days a week or something. Few of us do since we work 12 hour shifts. 3 days a week is considered full time. 3 days a week at your quoted wage works out to about 90K.

I have 9 years experience, which would put me at the top of the payscale in BC or Ontario where I used to work, and my base rate is $42 an hour (I'd make close to that in BC). It's about 80K a year not 144K. With the crazy cost of living here I do need some overtime, but it's worth it for the better work environment. I work in a good hospital with good managers and a good union. Northern California with its long union history and insane cost of living is where nurses make over 100K without OT. I never liked the weather up there though....

I left BC and took a pay cut to move to Ontario because I was so sick of the bs, hearing people who knew nothing about my job tell me all about it. People read something in the paper and take it as gospel. You'd have thought I was rolling in dough when I was taking home between $1000 and $1400 every 2 weeks. You'd have thought I was on strike when I was still working overtime. You couldn't pay me enough to go back to that. I experienced first hand how the media inflates the compensation greatly and diminishes the job responsibilities whenever a contract negotiation comes up. I suspect the same thing here with the auto workers. People hear $70 and hour, but they don't hear that those wages are not offered for new employees anymore or that they include benefits or that it's when overtime is factored in, etc.

 

[tracy]

While I agree with you, the time will come that the State of California will get fedup and do like Arizona and turn around 180.. It will become a "Right To Work" State making Unions powerless and then making all the advantages worked on hard by other Unions that have the workers rights at heart all lost. Then we are back at Management taking advantage of workers again.. Soo sad..

I doubt it. California is VERY different from Arizona. VERY different. The governor (Arnie) already tried to eviscerate the ratio law nursing unions fought so hard for. The courts prevented him from doing so. No talk of trying it again since....

 

[JLM]

:lol:

:lol:I don't make that without doing A LOT of overtime. I think the flaw in your calculation is that you're assuming we work 5 days a week or something. Few of us do since we work 12 hour shifts. 3 days a week is considered full time. 3 days a week at your quoted wage works out to about 90K.

I have 9 years experience, which would put me at the top of the payscale in BC or Ontario where I used to work, and my base rate is $42 an hour (I'd make close to that in BC). It's about 80K a year not 144K. With the crazy cost of living here I do need some overtime, but it's worth it for the better work environment. I work in a good hospital with good managers and a good union. Northern California with its long union history and insane cost of living is where nurses make over 100K without OT. I never liked the weather up there though....

I left BC and took a pay cut to move to Ontario because I was so sick of the bs, hearing people who knew nothing about my job tell me all about it. People read something in the paper and take it as gospel. You'd have thought I was rolling in dough when I was taking home between $1000 and $1400 every 2 weeks. You'd have thought I was on strike when I was still working overtime. You couldn't pay me enough to go back to that. I experienced first hand how the media inflates the compensation greatly and diminishes the job responsibilities whenever a contract negotiation comes up. I suspect the same thing here with the auto workers. People hear $70 and hour, but they don't hear that those wages are not offered for new employees anymore or that they include benefits or that it's when overtime is factored in, etc.

Good to get the "straight goods" from someone who knows, Tracy, then hearing a lot of anecdotal bullsh*t. Besides money is not ALL there is to life. It's important to have enough to get by, some people have that and scads more and are still miserable.

 

[Tyr]

Aw yes... Have you ever tried to be one of these.. Might as well become part of the mob.. Actually the dues are lower and the women are prettier ( at the mob that is )..

Having been looking for an alternative and having had to take 2 pay cuts in 4 years, with a possible layoff and loss of my house and property in next month, you do not have my sympathy..

All looks rosy thru your glasses but its not that simple.. Two kids and no place to live.. Life is a bitch to some of us that do work hard..

All looks rosy thru your glasses but its not that simple.. Two kids and no place to live.. Life is a bitch to some of us that do work hard

Ah, but it is that simple. I went to school, got a Bsc, worked HARD for 20 yrs, went back to school parttime and am about to gradute with an MBA. I work for myself and get to pick and choose who I work for and when I work. I enjoy it immensely

 

[Tyr]

:lol:

:lol:I don't make that without doing A LOT of overtime. I think the flaw in your calculation is that you're assuming we work 5 days a week or something. Few of us do since we work 12 hour shifts. 3 days a week is considered full time. 3 days a week at your quoted wage works out to about 90K.

I have 9 years experience, which would put me at the top of the payscale in BC or Ontario where I used to work, and my base rate is $42 an hour (I'd make close to that in BC). It's about 80K a year not 144K. With the crazy cost of living here I do need some overtime, but it's worth it for the better work environment. I work in a good hospital with good managers and a good union. Northern California with its long union history and insane cost of living is where nurses make over 100K without OT. I never liked the weather up there though....

I left BC and took a pay cut to move to Ontario because I was so sick of the bs, hearing people who knew nothing about my job tell me all about it. People read something in the paper and take it as gospel. You'd have thought I was rolling in dough when I was taking home between $1000 and $1400 every 2 weeks. You'd have thought I was on strike when I was still working overtime. You couldn't pay me enough to go back to that. I experienced first hand how the media inflates the compensation greatly and diminishes the job responsibilities whenever a contract negotiation comes up. I suspect the same thing here with the auto workers. People hear $70 and hour, but they don't hear that those wages are not offered for new employees anymore or that they include benefits or that it's when overtime is factored in, etc.

My mistake, I had forgotten to check with you on what your hrs were. But... at 36hrs/wk, your calculation is off by about $45,300. Not bad, you were only off by 50% Remember I quoted the wage as Canadian dollars

Still, $135,300 CAN is more than some doctors make

I suspect the same thing here with the auto workers. People hear $70 and hour, but they don't hear that those wages are not offered for new employees anymore or that they include benefits or that it's when overtime is factored in, etc

You suspect wrongly. The COST of a GM worker in Oshawa is anywher ebetween $69-79/hr. That is based on wage+benefits (not including pensions)+bonus'+overtime. About $16/hr MORE than a comparable worker at Toyaota makes.

I believe your union contract calls for $39.50/hr AMER (wages only -add the bemefits and OT and it's significantly higher) for a "new" employee. So a newby, coming out of school starts at ~$74,000 AMER. How can anybody rationalize that? I can. It's called grossly overpaid and that is one of the problems with Anerican healthcare - exhorbinit costs

 

[tracy]

People who factor in the conversion are doing themselves a diservice. I've lived here long enough to see the Canadian dollar worth much less than the American one and then have it worth slightly more. You buy things in US dollars, you earn US dollars... the conversion does nothing for you but make your friends back home think you're rich when you're not.

I don't know why you think my union contract calls for 39.50 USD for a new grad? It doesn't. Do you even know where I work? You should know that California nurses don't all make the same wage. We don't have one union or one contract which sets one wage like in BC. We have several different nursing unions (I used to be in CNA, now I'm in SEIU), and each hospital has a different contract (CNA nurses in one hospital make more than CNA nurses in another). New grads start around $28 USD in my hospital. Like I said, with my 9 years I make $42 USD. A newbie DOES NOT make 70K a year. $28 X 36 hours a week X 50 weeks a year = $50400 a year. When you consider the fact that rent for a 2 bedroom apartment is $1750 a month or that I just bought a one bedroom condo for $250K (all USD), 50K a year isn't a ton of money.

 

[Tyr]

People who factor in the conversion are doing themselves a diservice. I've lived here long enough to see the Canadian dollar worth much less than the American one and then have it worth slightly more. You buy things in US dollars, you earn US dollars... the conversion does nothing for you but make your friends back home think you're rich when you're not.

I don't know why you think my union contract calls for 39.50 USD for a new grad? It doesn't. Do you even know where I work? You should know that California nurses don't all make the same wage. We don't have one union or one contract which sets one wage like in BC. We have several different nursing unions (I used to be in CNA, now I'm in SEIU), and each hospital has a different contract (CNA nurses in one hospital make more than CNA nurses in another). New grads start around $28 USD in my hospital. Like I said, with my 9 years I make $42 USD. A newbie DOES NOT make 70K a year. $28 X 36 hours a week X 50 weeks a year = $50400 a year. When you consider the fact that rent for a 2 bedroom apartment is $1750 a month or that I just bought a one bedroom condo for $250K (all USD), 50K a year isn't a ton of money.

I'm using the contract posted by the California Nurses Union on the net. New grads start at $39.50/hr US.

Irregardless. The point is that unions artificially inflate wages/benefits to the point that the value (wage) is not indicative of the work performed.

A new grad with a Bsc in Canada is lucky to be offered employment at $24-26/hr CAN and that is more than most grads.

Unions have outlived therir usefullness 60 yrs ago. Today, they are just a drain on the work environment and a prime factor in business failures.

 

[Francis2004]

Ah, but it is that simple. I went to school, got a Bsc, worked HARD for 20 yrs, went back to school parttime and am about to gradute with an MBA. I work for myself and get to pick and choose who I work for and when I work. I enjoy it immensely

Exactly my point.. You started with a Bsc...

And I would have gladly returned to school as well, not having had the chance as a child, but I got married to my now ex who went back and got her Bsc and teaching degree.. But she decided that right after graduation she would up and leave.. All those years I accumulated debt on top of what I had but we were in "love".. I guess I should have been wise and gone back to school to get my degree first hey..

If one could only predict the future..

Well at least I do have some college and other courses I have taken during my life.. I just wish I could have studied more instead of doing the 16 hr days to keep the kids fed or scrambling for a new job..

 

[Tyr]

Exactly my point.. You started with a Bsc...

And I would have gladly returned to school as well, not having had the chance as a child, but I got married to my now ex who went back and got her Bsc and teaching degree.. But she decided that right after graduation she would up and leave.. All those years I accumulated debt on top of what I had but we were in "love".. I guess I should have been wise and gone back to school to get my degree first hey..

If one could only predict the future..

Well at least I do have some college and other courses I have taken during my life.. I just wish I could have studied more instead of doing the 16 hr days to keep the kids fed or scrambling for a new job..

If you are still interested in the school avenue. The quickest and IMHO the easiest training to get and get employed in is gas fitter. Short course and high demand

 

[Tyr]

If you are still interested in the school avenue. The quickest and IMHO the easiest training to get and get employed in is gas fitter. Short course and high demand

btw. I paid for my own education doing some incredibly brutal all through university. That's was the impetus to go on to further education

 

[Tyr]

People who factor in the conversion are doing themselves a diservice. I've lived here long enough to see the Canadian dollar worth much less than the American one and then have it worth slightly more. You buy things in US dollars, you earn US dollars... the conversion does nothing for you but make your friends back home think you're rich when you're not.

I don't know why you think my union contract calls for 39.50 USD for a new grad? It doesn't. Do you even know where I work? You should know that California nurses don't all make the same wage. We don't have one union or one contract which sets one wage like in BC. We have several different nursing unions (I used to be in CNA, now I'm in SEIU), and each hospital has a different contract (CNA nurses in one hospital make more than CNA nurses in another). New grads start around $28 USD in my hospital. Like I said, with my 9 years I make $42 USD. A newbie DOES NOT make 70K a year. $28 X 36 hours a week X 50 weeks a year = $50400 a year. When you consider the fact that rent for a 2 bedroom apartment is $1750 a month or that I just bought a one bedroom condo for $250K (all USD), 50K a year isn't a ton of money.

People who factor in the conversion are doing themselves a diservice. I've lived here long enough to see the Canadian dollar worth much less than the American one and then have it worth slightly more. You buy things in US dollars, you earn US dollars... the conversion does nothing for you but make your friends back home think you're rich when you're not.:icon_smile:

I can tell economics isn't your strong point. Of course it's relevant

 

[Zzarchov]

Tyr, here is my solution:

Don't join a Union if you don't like them.

Unions are a key element to the labour supply and have as much right, nay need, to exist as any other supplier or buyer group.

Unions not only keep their own members wages up, they keep the wages of non-union employees up as well, by setting a benchmark.

If the companies don't like it, they can leave. But they won't, they are out to make money just like everyone else and Canada has it.

 

[Tyr]

Tyr, here is my solution:

Don't join a Union if you don't like them.

Unions are a key element to the labour supply and have as much right, nay need, to exist as any other supplier or buyer group.

Unions not only keep their own members wages up, they keep the wages of non-union employees up as well, by setting a benchmark.

If the companies don't like it, they can leave. But they won't, they are out to make money just like everyone else and Canada has it.

I've quit jobs when they tried to unionize.

they are a dying breed (and rightly so) to the extent that they have fallen to less than 10% of the workforce.

Unions artifically inflate wages, driving inflation

ps. I've never hired a unionized supplier or subcontractor due primarily to the poor quality of their work

 

[Colpy]

I've quit jobs when they tried to unionize.

they are a dying breed (and rightly so) to the extent that they have fallen to less than 10% of the workforce.

Unions artifically inflate wages, driving inflation

ps. I've never hired a unionized supplier or subcontractor due primarily to the poor quality of their work

Having never been the member of a union, how do you know they are useless???

We need unions once again......if you want to look at inflated wages, check out CEOs before you start whinning about unions!!!!

Union wages are not artificially inflated, at least not in the private sector. I've been a member of a couple of unions in my time......and believe me, they are very necessary in the areas in which I worked.....for example, armoured car guards are consistently pressured and threatened to do dangerous work, as in drive cross-country in blizzards, drive 14, 15 hour shifts, work 24+ hours straight........all of which are illegal. Yey the company will insist it must be done.... the ice storm in the late 90s? we put our regular 3 cross-country runs out on the road......two of the trucks wound up in the woods.

This only stopped, or at least the pressure lessened, because of the union........labour laws are useless. For instance, you have the right to refuse to do dangerous work. You think that is to protect the labourer, right?

Wrong.

It puts the onus of refusal on the worker. If I drive in a blizzard, or more than 13 hours, or do anything else dangerous or illegal, it doesn't matter that the employer threatened to fire me (as has happened to me)...........it doesn't matter that the manager calls me a coward, a liar, repeatedly calls me to berate me......the second I give in and do as I am ordered......any consequences, legal or otherwise, are deemed to be my fault.

My "right to refuse dangerous work" protects the employer.....the fact I have a right to refuse means that it was my choice to do what I did, doesn't it? The employer is blameless.

Oh yes, unions are necessary.

With the widening class gap, and the disappearing middle class, they are more necessary now than they have been in decades.

 

[Zzarchov]

I've quit jobs when they tried to unionize.

they are a dying breed (and rightly so) to the extent that they have fallen to less than 10% of the workforce.

Unions artifically inflate wages, driving inflation

ps. I've never hired a unionized supplier or subcontractor due primarily to the poor quality of their work

I see you are American, In Canada the numbers are about 1/3rd. Seems odd to discuss legal issues about America on a Canadian Forum.

Lets dig deeper though, do you deal directly with the producing factory of each individual parts, or the Union of smaller companies under a larger corporate label?

You seem to keep artificially distinguishing between Labour and other component parts. When you buy "Widgets group A" you usually buy from a company that has some legal right to be only supplier of that type of Widget, artificially increasing the price of that widget than if you made the design public domain and everyones workshop could make knock off qualities.

But then no one invests in making new widget designs. Do you think educated workers roll off the assembly line? Unions are on the rise in any nation with an increasingly educated workforce. If people are going to invest in something for your benefit as an employer, they want some for of Guarantee. No different than any other provider of any other component.

 

[gopher]

Instead of cutting wages, the better and smarter thing to do is to reduce prices.

 

[Machjo]

Having never been the member of a union, how do you know they are useless???

We need unions once again......if you want to look at inflated wages, check out CEOs before you start whinning about unions!!!!

Union wages are not artificially inflated, at least not in the private sector. I've been a member of a couple of unions in my time......and believe me, they are very necessary in the areas in which I worked.....for example, armoured car guards are consistently pressured and threatened to do dangerous work, as in drive cross-country in blizzards, drive 14, 15 hour shifts, work 24+ hours straight........all of which are illegal. Yey the company will insist it must be done.... the ice storm in the late 90s? we put our regular 3 cross-country runs out on the road......two of the trucks wound up in the woods.

This only stopped, or at least the pressure lessened, because of the union........labour laws are useless. For instance, you have the right to refuse to do dangerous work. You think that is to protect the labourer, right?

Wrong.

It puts the onus of refusal on the worker. If I drive in a blizzard, or more than 13 hours, or do anything else dangerous or illegal, it doesn't matter that the employer threatened to fire me (as has happened to me)...........it doesn't matter that the manager calls me a coward, a liar, repeatedly calls me to berate me......the second I give in and do as I am ordered......any consequences, legal or otherwise, are deemed to be my fault.

My "right to refuse dangerous work" protects the employer.....the fact I have a right to refuse means that it was my choice to do what I did, doesn't it? The employer is blameless.

Oh yes, unions are necessary.

With the widening class gap, and the disappearing middle class, they are more necessary now than they have been in decades.

If management threatens to fire you for refusing to break the law, that shouldn't be a matter for a union, but one for the labour relations board or a lawyer.

If workers did less unionizing and more suing, I'm sure employers would start to think twice. I've always worked non-union, and I'd taken an employer on legally twice, and won twice.