Time to cut wages

mit

Electoral Member
Nov 26, 2008
273
5
18
SouthWestern Ontario
When I am asked to be a reference I say Yes - but I will answer all questions truthfully. When I find an employee that has been exemplary and which due to economic conditions I can not employ longer I offer my name as a reference and a letter (Although Human Resources cringe at that) There are few things more satisfying in a mangers life than a phone call from someone who says "Thanks I got the job!"
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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Vernon, B.C.
Alot of the larger unions are. Its much like any role, some companies know about job knowledge and skills, some are small and just hire/promote based on "I like you".

But in the end, its the guy selling the labour that decides the conditions of his sale. You can always say its too big of a hassle and tell them all to fark themselves.

If I had a business, it would only make sense to me to choose favourites for positions, people who are favoured because of their expertise, ability, knowledge and capable of making the most money for me & on the other side of the coin I would want to treat them in such as way that they would be trying hard to make me even more money and make the business run smoothly and keep satisfied customers. I don't think a Union is required to do that.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Nor should they be, their goal isn't as your servant, which I think is alot of the problem.

Employees are not part of the business, if they were part of the business you would give them part of the profit and they would suffer part of the loss.

Employees supply labour, a resource you use as part of your business venture to make money.

A theoretical store would buy labour from employees, goods from a wholesaler, promotional material from a marketing agency and space from a landlord.

the store would shop around for the best prices on each. But the store couldn't easily (and often legally without voiding a contract with the supplier and wholesaler) go to the supplier to bargain for better prices for their store.

Instead the suppliers all have the Wholesaler get a better price for their behalf, and as a result the store gets a worse price. But it has to deal with it, this isn't a charity and the wholesaler isn't going to make less money for the store to make more.


likewise the market agency probably gives its sales people a territory, the store can't go shopping around inside the agency until it finds a rep willing to give them a better deal. It can find another agency..unless the store is part of a franchise or signed some other form of contract where it HAD to deal with this agency for this location (such as part of a past deal for supply in the past)

If you go to the landlord, you will probably find the property is being managed by a company other than the owner, who doesn't want to deal with the hassle, and now this property management company handles your rent. And with the vast number of other properties they hold they can force the price to be higher than it would otherwise.

Even though this raises rent for the store, its a business and they aren't about to make less money so the store can make more.


Now we come to labour suppliers. The store goes to find labour and thus negotiates with a couple dozen people, playing them off each other for a lower price (as the store should). If the labour unionizes, they (like the wholesaler, landlord and marketing company) now present a stronger negotiating positions because they control alot more of the labour supply available. They will will not choose to take less money, so the store can make more for the same reasons as the wholesaler, the marketing company and the property management firm: This is a business not a chairty, their goal is to make their own business prosper, not the store unless that causes them to prosper even more.

When I work for a company I am not "part of the company", I don't share in profits, I don't suffer for losses and I file my own taxes with my own listing of revenue and expenses unrelated to the company I sell my time to.

This "magical line" between labour and other suppliers is crap that lazy companies who don't feel like earning their profit but instead having it lavished upon them with a silver platter dream up.

Unions are not there to benefit the company, anymore than the property management firm is there to benefit that same company, or their other suppliers.

And if the unions cause the automakers to collapse, good for them. The automakers only employ a small amount of people proportiantly.

Their value only comes from the high wages they pump into labour suppliers, which are then spent on the local economy (houses, appliances, more cars, services, etc) creating a nice multiplier effect.

If they aren't pumping money into the local economy through wages, they aren't really that important. Not any more so than Wal-mart or McDonalds.
 

Tyr

Council Member
Nov 27, 2008
2,152
14
38
Sitting at my laptop
I recently took a new job in municipal government and it required joining a union. I have never been a union member or a union supporter. It didn't take long to figure out that the union I belong to is entirely necessary. The municipality that I work for is small and is run by 7 Councilors of which 6 won the last election by acclimation. as a group, they are so inept that I'm surprised most of them are able to show up to council meetings with their shoes tied.

I may have a different view than my co-workers (as I am the highest paid and most "in demand" employee) but greed and fear are not issues for me. The union allows for a knowledge based alternative view to be presented to Council. Our Councilors are farmers and know nothing of road construction, water treatment facilities or the fire department operations nor do they want to bother themselves with such "trivialities". In the case of my municipality, the union provides a valuable service to to ratepayers by forcing Council to deal with issues they may otherwise sidestep.

Remember, becoming an elected official rarely requires any job skills other than just knowing how to get elected.

Since I've never been in a private sector union, I can't really comment other than to say that I don't buy Ford because their cars are crap, not because the workers are overpaid.

That has nothing to do with exhorbinant wages or blatant union greed. In fact it has nothing to do with unions at all, but rather a dysfunctional entity.

Your particular situation sense more to do with a poor city/area planner/manager than worker "strife"
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
30,245
99
48
Alberta
Your particular situation sense more to do with a poor city/area planner/manager than worker "strife"

Of course it does. That was the point. You made the faulty argument that It is no longer the case that unions are a response to bad management. In act, to quote you...

"That was the case 60 yrs ago. It's not the case now. It's blatant union greed and fear"

You also made the statement " Unions have outlived their usefulness 60 yrs ago".

I'm just pointing out that based on my present situation it is clear to me that you are wrong on both counts. Actually you are wrong concerning most of your arguments on this thread but you claim to be an edumacated x-pert so who am I to argue.

A little advice for you, I would tone down the rhetoric. Criticizing others because they "don't understand economics" tends to diminish your own credibility since you probably have no idea as to the educational level of many of the posters here. Just a thought.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
"A little advice for you, I would tone down the rhetoric. Criticizing others because they "don't understand economics" tends to diminish your own credibility since you probably have no idea as to the educational level of many of the posters here. Just a thought.[/quote]"- PERHAPS A CASE of the "pot calling the kettle black"
I'll admit sometimes there are situations where the Union is AN answer to problems in the work place, but I would suggest that very seldom is it the BEST answer. It'a another high payroll cost that very seldom contributes to the economical production of the finished product.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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JLM:

Why is it the Labour suppliers concern about the economic production of the finished product? That is the concern of the business, that is what they make money doing, the labour supplier makes money supplying labour, not for the finished product.

Likewise, component part suppliers are concerned that they make money selling their product, not that the purchaser of the product is better off.

Suppliers only care when their buyers might actually all collapse, and thats the correct path. If an end line business wants to be profitable, thats their business, not their suppliers.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
JLM:

Why is it the Labour suppliers concern about the economic production of the finished product? That is the concern of the business, that is what they make money doing, the labour supplier makes money supplying labour, not for the finished product.

Likewise, component part suppliers are concerned that they make money selling their product, not that the purchaser of the product is better off.

Suppliers only care when their buyers might actually all collapse, and thats the correct path. If an end line business wants to be profitable, thats their business, not their suppliers.
No one gets paid until the finished product is delivered.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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No one gets paid until the finished product is delivered.

Oh yes they do. Suppliers still get paid, everyone gets their claws in if a business didn't plan well enough to turn a profit.

Landlords get their rent, Part suppliers get their invoices paid, and Labour suppliers get their wages, or as much as they can get from the businesses assets being stripped out.

Its not the job of the labour supplier to worry about the well being of the company. That is what managers, as well as the owners or board of directors are paid to do.

Labour Suppliers are not part of the business venture, they do not receive any of the profits, nor do they lose money from a net loss.
 

TenPenny

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 9, 2004
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Location, Location
If she deserved it, then her employer should not have said that she could use her as a reference. The employer was dishonest.

Which is actually why many employers won't give references, or will only give very vague ones. There is zero benefit for an employer to give a reference, only a risk of being sued.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
113
Vernon, B.C.
Oh yes they do. Suppliers still get paid, everyone gets their claws in if a business didn't plan well enough to turn a profit.

Landlords get their rent, Part suppliers get their invoices paid, and Labour suppliers get their wages, or as much as they can get from the businesses assets being stripped out.

Its not the job of the labour supplier to worry about the well being of the company. That is what managers, as well as the owners or board of directors are paid to do.

Labour Suppliers are not part of the business venture, they do not receive any of the profits, nor do they lose money from a net loss.

Not in the real world, sure it may happen once or twice with borrowed money, but obviously a company that is not pulling in the cash is unable to pay anyone. Perhaps before you comment further you should take an economics 101 course.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Not in the real world, sure it may happen once or twice with borrowed money, but obviously a company that is not pulling in the cash is unable to pay anyone. Perhaps before you comment further you should take an economics 101 course.

If that company is a simple start-up with no hard assets sure.

But seeing as one of my educations was in business, featuring economics heavily, and I run a business..

Perhaps you should stop and think for a minute: Who the hell are giving these people credit (in the forms of loans or allowing late payments) if they aren't pulling in money.

Wages get paid, the worst any supplier is going to be out is one invoice/pay period with a bankruptcy dividing up the assets to pay off secured and then unsecured debts.

If a company isn't making money, people still get some (or most) of theirs. Collateral is taken for a reason, alot of entrepreneurs lose their house from that line of thinking.

A corporation protects the assets of the shareholders (even if its just one person) up until the bank requires that shareholder put his house or car on the line for the corporation to get the start-up loan.

People get their money.

I would suggest you take a little past "Intro to Economics" before you continue the conversation.:lol: