Time to cut wages

[Tyr]

If you think nurses make big bucks or that they aren't subject to unsafe working conditions, you must be in another field!!!

Supply and demand are not all that determine wages. Nurses have been in high demand in Canada for a fairly long time, but in some provinces it took work actions and even illegal walk outs to get a reasonable raise. IMO, unions are simply a response to bad management. If workers feel safe and that their managers are fair, they'd never join a union. Unions will occasionally accept losses in their contract negotiations, you just have to look at BC nurses' last contract.

The problem with the big 3 auto makers isn't the unions. It isn't the wages. It's the fact that they make cars people don't want to buy. If they weren't churning out gas guzzling, unreliable pieces of crap they'd still be making money.

If you think nurses make big bucks

they do

that they aren't subject to unsafe working conditions

They aren't (I said hazardous)

you must be in another field

I am

unions are simply a response to bad management.

That was the case 60 yrs ago. It's not the cse now. It's blatant union greed and fear

 

[JLM]

"unions are simply a response to bad management."- I have a hard time with that one. I would characterize Unions as another level of bureaucracy that contributes nothing to the production of the finished product, with one exception- where they contribute to the safety of the operation.

 

[tracy]

If you think nurses make big bucks

they do

They make less than those GM workers. The pensions were crap when I left.

that they aren't subject to unsafe working conditions

They aren't (I said hazardous)

So, SARS, Hep C, HIV and the countless other diseases aren't hazards? Add to that the equipment, the patients (both violent and simply too heavy) and you have a recipe for workplace injuries.

you must be in another field

I am

I could tell by the oh so informed comments

unions are simply a response to bad management.

That was the case 60 yrs ago. It's not the cse now. It's blatant union greed and fear

My nursing unions in Canada don't go back that long. BCNU as it is now known was founded in 1981. My current hospital in California voted a union in just a few years ago. It wasn't over wages. It was mainly over nurses being required to float to any floor in the hospital (NOT a safe thing at all!!!). Had management not forced nurses to do that for so long, the union wouldn't exist here. I worked at 2 non-union hospitals here. The reason the unions never get voted in is because the staff feel they are treated fairly. If they were floating everywhere they'd probably vote union too. Their managers are smart enough to stop that from happening.

........

 

[tracy]

"unions are simply a response to bad management."- I have a hard time with that one. I would characterize Unions as another level of bureaucracy that contributes nothing to the production of the finished product, with one exception- where they contribute to the safety of the operation.

Maybe it's because I work in a field without a true product (other than healthy people leaving the hospital). Nursing unions in Canada are simply the norm. I never would have questionned it. The US is another ballgame. The northern part of the state is very pro-union, the southern part is still a battleground. The managers who keep their staff happy keep unions out. The managers who truly make their staff miserable ensure unions get voted in. Then they simply wind up having to do the things they should have been doing in the first place. The unions in California have basically single handedly created staffing laws that no other state has managed to do. It makes the state THE best state in which to work imo. I wouldn't dream of moving to work elsewhere and it's thanks to the progress the unions have made here in the last few years.

 

[Tyr]

........

They make less than those GM workers. The pensions were crap when I left.

...I'm sure they make less than nuclear scientists and astronauts too. What's your point?


that they aren't subject to unsafe working conditions

They aren't (I said hazardous)

So, SARS, Hep C, HIV and the countless other diseases aren't hazards? Add to that the equipment, the patients (both violent and simply too heavy) and you have a recipe for workplace injuries.

Your examples are the extremes (typically a union response). They have nowhere near the hazardous environment faced by say a miner or logger

you must be in another field

I am

I could tell by the oh so informed comments:icon_smile:


I've have a better grasp of "the bigger" picture than your typical nurse - i.e the union environement. 25 yrs experience and more education than a nurse can do that

unions are simply a response to bad management.

That was the case 60 yrs ago. It's not the cse now. It's blatant union greed and fear

My nursing unions in Canada don't go back that long. BCNU as it is now known was founded in 1981. My current hospital in California voted a union in just a few years ago. It wasn't over wages. It was mainly over nurses being required to float to any floor in the hospital (NOT a safe thing at all!!!). Had management not forced nurses to do that for so long, the union wouldn't exist here. I worked at 2 non-union hospitals here. The reason the unions never get voted in is because the staff feel they are treated fairly. If they were floating everywhere they'd probably vote union too. Their managers are smart enough to stop that from happening.

 

[Tyr]

Maybe it's because I work in a field without a true product (other than healthy people leaving the hospital). Nursing unions in Canada are simply the norm. I never would have questionned it. The US is another ballgame. The northern part of the state is very pro-union, the southern part is still a battleground. The managers who keep their staff happy keep unions out. The managers who truly make their staff miserable ensure unions get voted in. Then they simply wind up having to do the things they should have been doing in the first place. The unions in California have basically single handedly created staffing laws that no other state has managed to do. It makes the state THE best state in which to work imo. I wouldn't dream of moving to work elsewhere and it's thanks to the progress the unions have made here in the last few years.

The managers who keep their staff happy keep unions out. The managers who truly make their staff miserable ensure unions get voted in. Then they simply wind up having to do the things they should have been doing in the first place

The unfortunate part of that equation is that "managers" who have staff that make them miserable have to put up with them

How does promotion work in your "unionized" environment? Is it based on merit or is it based on seniority?

Unions tend to reward people with seniority even if they are mediocre. Those with initiative are typically not promoted becasue of it. They become complacent and robotic as their union dictates.

Ultimately you get alot of mediocre people in positions not based on their ability but rather based on how long they have been punching the clock. The result is those that are truely good at their jobs, leave. Those who do poorly, stay - they have no place else to go

 

[Zzarchov]

You know what the good thing about Unions is?

Tough crap to the Management. If you don't like it, find another Job.

Thats the law, You want to pay the workers as little as possible (and you should, thats the whole point of capitalism) and in exchange they want to get the highest wages possible.

Its no different than franchise requires strangling small business owners or big businesses stamping out smaller ones.

Management in many companies needs to learn to quite bitching about Unions, thats part of the competetive culture.

Workers aren't a charity, they are out to make a profit just like the business. Management works on the behalf of the shareholders and Unions on behalf of the workers.

The Idea that unions should somehow voluntarily lower the profits of those they represent so that corporations can give more profits to their shareholders is bollshoi.

I aint rolling out the red carpet for that kind of Communist Crap. If labour becomes too expensive, shut down the factory, its a free market and the unions have the labour resource you need to run the factory, they are suppliers out to make profits. Deal with it.


This rant is full of venom and haste over the idiocy I've seen here thats "pro-business", when really its "Pro-inneffective lazy businesses"

 

[Machjo]

You know what the good thing about Unions is?

Tough crap to the Management. If you don't like it, find another Job.

Thats the law, You want to pay the workers as little as possible (and you should, thats the whole point of capitalism) and in exchange they want to get the highest wages possible.

Its no different than franchise requires strangling small business owners or big businesses stamping out smaller ones.

Management in many companies needs to learn to quite bitching about Unions, thats part of the competetive culture.

Workers aren't a charity, they are out to make a profit just like the business. Management works on the behalf of the shareholders and Unions on behalf of the workers.

The Idea that unions should somehow voluntarily lower the profits of those they represent so that corporations can give more profits to their shareholders is bollshoi.

I aint rolling out the red carpet for that kind of Communist Crap. If labour becomes too expensive, shut down the factory, its a free market and the unions have the labour resource you need to run the factory, they are suppliers out to make profits. Deal with it.


This rant is full of venom and haste over the idiocy I've seen here thats "pro-business", when really its "Pro-inneffective lazy businesses"

I'm against unions precicely because of their confrontational and thus inefficient nature. No one is benefitting while the workers are out on strike. Instead, why not have the govenrnment do like in Germany; give labour a certain number of seats on the board of directors, and whatevr the board decides, respect it. of course even in Germany they're allowed to strike I beleive, but the fact that labour has representatvies on the board of directors reduces the need to strike, allowing labour and management to work together rather than confront each other. Wow, cooperation, what a concept.

And Germany isn't exactly considered a right-wing nut-job capitalist neo-con country eitehr.

 

[Risus]

I'm against unions precicely because of their confrontational and thus inefficient nature. No one is benefitting while the workers are out on strike. Instead, why not have the govenrnment do like in Germany; give labour a certain number of seats on the board of directors, and whatevr the board decides, respect it. of course even in Germany they're allowed to strike I beleive, but the fact that labour has representatvies on the board of directors reduces the need to strike, allowing labour and management to work together rather than confront each other. Wow, cooperation, what a concept.

And Germany isn't exactly considered a right-wing nut-job capitalist neo-con country eitehr.

At one point in time, unions served a purpose. Now they don't except to put money into the union leaders pocket. Its time to get rid of them....

 

[Risus]

The problem with the big 3 auto makers isn't the unions. It isn't the wages. It's the fact that they make cars people don't want to buy. If they weren't churning out gas guzzling, unreliable pieces of crap they'd still be making money.

Wrong. The unions demanding outrageous salaries, like $30 per hour for sweeping the floor.

Most of their vehicles are not gas guzzlers, and with the drop in gas prices, even the gas guzzlers might sell again.

Also the world economy has gone into the crapper, and the auto industry is a victim, like a lot of other industries...

 

[Machjo]

Wrong. The unions demanding outrageous salaries, like $30 per hour for sweeping the floor.

Most of their vehicles are not gas guzzlers, and with the drop in gas prices, even the gas guzzlers might sell again.

Also the world economy has gone into the crapper, and the auto industry is a victim, like a lot of other industries...

Some industries are still hanging on without bailouts. Let the old industries fall to make way for the new. And no I'm not being mean. I'm not suggesting that workers all be thrown onto the streets. We have EI and social assistance and free health care already, so it won't be that bad, and I'd even pitch in retraining as an added bonus. Yes when they go back on the market they'll have to accept more reasonable wages, but that's life.

 

[tracy]

The unfortunate part of that equation is that "managers" who have staff that make them miserable have to put up with them

That's simply not the case. People can be fired in unionized environments. I've seen it happen several times since being here. There is no guarantee to job security simply because you are in a union.

How does promotion work in your "unionized" environment? Is it based on merit or is it based on seniority?

Unions tend to reward people with seniority even if they are mediocre. Those with initiative are typically not promoted becasue of it. They become complacent and robotic as their union dictates.

Ultimately you get alot of mediocre people in positions not based on their ability but rather based on how long they have been punching the clock. The result is those that are truely good at their jobs, leave. Those who do poorly, stay - they have no place else to go

I've heard this argument a lot. No, people are not simply promoted because of seniority. The only really meaningful promotions in nursing actually involve leaving the union and going into management, so union seniority has nothing to do with it. Being "promoted" into being the charge nurse (still a union job) is usually something they have to beg people to do since it's not a really desirable job to many of us. People with less seniority do it all the time. Pay is largely determined based on years of experience, but our union contract also includes merit pay increases for things like learning extra skills, belonging to professional organizations, taking on extra responsibilities, etc.

I also think you really insult people when you assume that they won't do a good job unless it's rewarded with promotion. I do my job well because I love it. A union or non-union environment has nothing to do with my initiative or my work ethic. Those things are simply a part of who I am.

 

[tracy]

...I'm sure they make less than nuclear scientists and astronauts too. What's your point?
.

That they don't make big bucks. The general public tends to greatly overestimate what nurses make because whenever their contract comes up for negotiation the only number in the press is the top of the payscale. Nurses in California make big bucks. Nurses in Canada don't.

Your examples are the extremes (typically a union response). They have nowhere near the hazardous environment faced by say a miner or logger
.

They aren't the extremes at all. SARS maybe, but that didn't stop me from having to go to work during the outbreak. It wasn't comforting to find out my employer didn't have enough masks for us to protect ourselves properly. 2 nurses actually died in Toronto after aquiring the disease from their patient.

Heavy patients, needles, diseases, blood and other bodily fluids etc. are all every day things. Nursing has been dogged by high workplace injury rates since it began. Fortunately they're not usually fatal ones, but disability isn't exactly nice. Heavy patients and a lack of lift equipment is the biggest problem. Nursing is the highest risk profession for back injuries simply because of having to lift and turn heavy patients. It's one of the main reasons I went into the specialty I did. I dislocated my shoulder flipping a pregnant woman into a different position during an emergency. Labor and delivery wasn't a great option for me after that so I moved and started looking after babies instead. Unions have pushed for lift teams in hospitals, lift equipment and better staffing, all of which make it safer to care for patients. A friend's husband is a longshoreman and his union seems far less concerned about worker safety and looking after their disabled members. They went through hell after he was permanently disabled on the job. I'm lucky to be in a union that has negotiated fairly good disability coverage.

 

[tracy]

Wrong. The unions demanding outrageous salaries, like $30 per hour for sweeping the floor.

Most of their vehicles are not gas guzzlers, and with the drop in gas prices, even the gas guzzlers might sell again.

Also the world economy has gone into the crapper, and the auto industry is a victim, like a lot of other industries...

If the only problem is worker wages, why are their sales figures also in the toilet compared to other companies? Toyota is hurting, but it's nothing like GM. If they made better cars they wouldn't have lost so much of their market share to foreign companies over the last 30 years.

 

[Tyr]

You know what the good thing about Unions is?

Tough crap to the Management. If you don't like it, find another Job.

Thats the law, You want to pay the workers as little as possible (and you should, thats the whole point of capitalism) and in exchange they want to get the highest wages possible.

Its no different than franchise requires strangling small business owners or big businesses stamping out smaller ones.

Management in many companies needs to learn to quite bitching about Unions, thats part of the competetive culture.

Workers aren't a charity, they are out to make a profit just like the business. Management works on the behalf of the shareholders and Unions on behalf of the workers.

The Idea that unions should somehow voluntarily lower the profits of those they represent so that corporations can give more profits to their shareholders is bollshoi.

I aint rolling out the red carpet for that kind of Communist Crap. If labour becomes too expensive, shut down the factory, its a free market and the unions have the labour resource you need to run the factory, they are suppliers out to make profits. Deal with it.


This rant is full of venom and haste over the idiocy I've seen here thats "pro-business", when really its "Pro-inneffective lazy businesses"

Tough crap to the Management. If you don't like it, find another Job.

The same can be said of the "workers". Though they hide behind the skirt of a union

Management in many companies needs to learn to quite bitching about Unions, thats part of the competetive culture.

Obviously you don't have much of an understanding of the work environment dynamic vis-a-vis unionized vs. non-unionized. What does it have to do with "competitive culture"? There is no competitive culture in a unionized environment. That's the point of a union

Management works on the behalf of the shareholders and Unions on behalf of the workers.

Shareholders invest the money to enable the entity to exist. What does the union do to start up the corporation and what do they risk?

The Idea that unions should somehow voluntarily lower the profits of those they represent so that corporations can give more profits to their shareholders is bollshoi.

That's not what the issue is (or has ever been in any business).

This rant is full of venom and haste over the idiocy I've seen here thats "pro-business", when really its "Pro-inneffective lazy businesses

It's difficult to even unravel what your post is about. Is it pro business or pro union?

 

[Unforgiven]

If we're going to cut wages, can we start with the politicians?
I think 22% right off the top should be a good start.;-)

 

[Tyr]

If we're going to cut wages, can we start with the politicians?
I think 22% right off the top should be a good start.;-)

You're being generous. I was thinking between a 26-28% cut

 

[Tyr]

That's simply not the case. People can be fired in unionized environments.

It's extremely rare. They may get reassigned, but rarely "fired" outright


I've heard this argument a lot.

because it's true..

No, people are not simply promoted because of seniority.

Bull

The only really meaningful promotions in nursing actually involve leaving the union and going into management, so union seniority has nothing to do with it.

Bull


I also think you really insult people when you assume that they won't do a good job unless it's rewarded with promotion. I do my job well because I love it.

You are talking about many " people" and in the same breath "one individual". I think you are extremely naive to think that the vast majority of proplr do what they do for a living, becasue they "love their work"

.

A Typical nurses union detail (in fact it's yours). Pay particular attention to the highlighted line Salaries and differentialsJobs awarded by seniority to qualified internal applicants

• New grad rates up to $39.50/hr for day shift
• Experienced staff nurses earn up to $59.16/hr
• Nurse Practitioners earn up to $60.67/hr
• Per Diem nurses earn a 25% differential in lieu of benefits
• Nurses working the PM shift earn an extra 10%
• Nurses working the night shift earn an extra 15%
• Weekend differential of 30%
• Charge nurses earn 5% premium
• Preceptors earn $25/shift premium
• 2% differential for national certifications
• For every-weekend positions, 32 hours pay for 24 hours work
• Double time for working 3 or more consecutive weekends
• Time and one-half for working the seventh and subsequent consecutive day.
• Nurses earn 50% of their regular pay while on standby
• Time and one-half for a minimum of three hours each time nurses are called in from standby
• Time and one-half for overtime after the regular shift, and double time after 12 hours

Benefits

• Nurses who work at least half-time are entitled to fully paid family coverage (includes domestic partners).
• Guaranteed Defined Benefit pensions
• Full retiree health care for nurses and dependents
• 15 days per year sick leave, after 5 years on the job.
• 5 weeks vacation per year after 10 years on the job, and up to 7 weeks/yr. for more senior nurses.
• 13 paid holidays per year.
• Time and one-half for working on holidays.
• 12 days per year of paid educational leave
• Unlimited paid jury duty leaves.

Working Conditions

• No mandatory overtime
• Jobs awarded by seniority to qualified internal applicants
• No cancellation of scheduled shifts
• Ability to reduce to 80% after 5 years or 60% after 20 years
• No required weekend work after 20 years

Staffing and Professional Practice

• Staffing disputes subject to arbitration
• Staffing ratios in the contract
• 8 hours/month paid time for Professional Practice Committee

 

[JLM]

Quite right about investor motive for investing and the downturn in investment return. So? Market fluctuations happen and that affects investors' returns.
You are telling me that corp'ns and companies are NOT concerned with investors?

I think the corps. and companies ARE very concerned with investors, but I'm pretty sure the Unions aren't - actually I'd bet half a pension cheque on it.

 

[JLM]

Maybe it's because I work in a field without a true product (other than healthy people leaving the hospital). Nursing unions in Canada are simply the norm. I never would have questionned it. The US is another ballgame. The northern part of the state is very pro-union, the southern part is still a battleground. The managers who keep their staff happy keep unions out. The managers who truly make their staff miserable ensure unions get voted in. Then they simply wind up having to do the things they should have been doing in the first place. The unions in California have basically single handedly created staffing laws that no other state has managed to do. It makes the state THE best state in which to work imo. I wouldn't dream of moving to work elsewhere and it's thanks to the progress the unions have made here in the last few years.

A lot of truth in what you say, some outfits and managers are deplorable to work for & something is needed to balance the situation - I suppose it's something like bringing a rhinocerus into your house to keep the rats worried.