Do you believe in EVIL?

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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Imagine a lifeless planet, floating in a lifeless universe. Would good and evil exist there? I don't see how they could; anything that happens has no consequences for anything that cares about them, there's nobody to care. So, let's put a man on this planet. Being human, he has needs, desires, wants, pain and pleasure mean something to him, he avoids the former and seeks the latter, and can decide if something is good or bad for him. Only at this point do good and evil enter the world, and he's the sole arbiter of them. No distinction can be made between what's good and bad for him, and what's absolutely good and bad, because there's no standard but his, there's just him and an otherwise dead universe. So just to make it interesting, let's put a woman on the planet with him.

She has many needs and interests in common with him, as a fellow human, but she'll also have some that differ. Now we have two people with similar aims who can work together in support of them, but they'll also need to compromise with each other on the points where they differ. A complicated relationship develops and rules are established to maximize their mutual happiness and provide ways to resolve conflicts and disagreements. With rules, we now have right and wrong, as well as good and evil.

Those things exist only when there are conscious beings capable of making judgments about them, and they arise solely because of those beings' differing needs, interests, desires, and so on. The recognition of the need to cooperate is where ethics, morality, laws, and more broadly, the definitions of right and wrong, good and evil, come from.
 

mt_pockets1000

Council Member
Jun 22, 2006
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Imagine a lifeless planet, floating in a lifeless universe. Would good and evil exist there? I don't see how they could; anything that happens has no consequences for anything that cares about them, there's nobody to care.

Sort of like "if a tree falls in a forest does any body hear".

We are human after all. The sooner we come to grips with this the better for all of us.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
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It's dichotomous. Here at one end you have Evil and at the other end you have Good.
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
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Please explain `the age old debate`. It was just a statement of my personal opinion.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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and can decide if something is good or bad for him. Only at this point do good and evil enter the world, and he's the sole arbiter of them.
That doesn't works if he is the only living being. Good and evil are applied to actions between two living beings. You cannot be good or evil to a rock. You could bring one inside to keep it away from the effects of weathering but that is not a 'good deed', nor is leaving it outside a 'bad deed' simply because the rock is unaware that weathering is taking place.
Add some living things (doesn't have to be more humans) and you have the conditions for good or evil to happen. That doesn't mean they can be redefined and that is what would be happening if the man is deciding what is good and what is evil. Eating one of the beings (if plants are also there as a food source) might not have the man thinking he has done anything evil but if that being didn't want to be eaten then that is an evil act and any 'relatives' would be correct in viewing that man as being an evil person.
#1 commandment is respect for God, the ones that come after that are about respect for our fellow man. If I kill a man for something he owns it works out 'good' for me but that does not make me a 'good' person.

Good and evil would seem to be the white and black of that subject, are there any gray areas? Most of the time when God uses the word abomination it is to describe a behavior that is 'wrong in God's eyes' for whatever reason. On other occasions something acceptable becomes an abomination. Like the people of Sodom offering up burnt sacrifices, their immoral lifestyle made those appeasements to God null and void.

She has many needs and interests in common with him, as a fellow human, but she'll also have some that differ. Now we have two people with similar aims who can work together in support of them, but they'll also need to compromise with each other on the points where they differ. A complicated relationship develops and rules are established to maximize their mutual happiness and provide ways to resolve conflicts and disagreements. With rules, we now have right and wrong, as well as good and evil.
The difference here is that there is now a relationship between two alike beings. Can good and evil exist between two unlike beings, man and beast of the field as an example. If they use a narrow spot in a river to cross and you put a log in the way to impede them getting out of the water (for a more interesting photo shoot) and that causes a jam that results in many drowning that would have made it safely to the other side if not for the log, have you done something evil? If the man could set down the definition of what was evil when he was alone and that definition has to be modified when another person comes on the scene then it seems the first definition was in error in some ways.

Those things exist only when there are conscious beings capable of making judgments about them, and they arise solely because of those beings' differing needs, interests, desires, and so on. The recognition of the need to cooperate is where ethics, morality, laws, and more broadly, the definitions of right and wrong, good and evil, come from.
How does man being a threat to beings that do not know about good and evil play into this, they certainly cannot point out to the man that what he is about to do is harming them and therefore it is wrong?
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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There are two things that are evil in my reality: waking up in the middle of the night to find I had dropped a wet fart and politics.
 

Dexter Sinister

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That doesn't works if he is the only living being.
Sure it does. Suppose that rock you mentioned rolled down a hill in an earthquake and struck the man, breaking his leg. He'd certainly call that a bad thing. It's what the theologians would call non-moral evil, or physical evil, as the rock has no volition, but the man would certainly call it evil and he'd be right, who is there to gainsay him?
Add some living things (doesn't have to be more humans) and you have the conditions for good or evil to happen... Eating one of the beings...
If the being that got eaten lacks the intellectual equipment to think in those terms, how could it define that as evil? I doubt anyone but a PETA lunatic would try to argue that livestock are justified in viewing humans as evil. They don't have the brains (the livestock I mean) to think about such things. With the possible exception of some of our nearer relatives among the primates, animals do not have ethics.
If the man could set down the definition of what was evil when he was alone and that definition has to be modified when another person comes on the scene then it seems the first definition was in error in some ways.
I don't see the logic of that at all, and now you've implicitly hypothesized a third volitional consciousness, a deity, as the actual source of the rules. So where does the deity get those rules from? If he made them up himself, they're no more or less arbitrary than any other set of rules, they're just his opinions and need not necessarily concern us. One of his earliest strictures, in your view of these matters, is the injunction against killing, then he leads his chosen people along a trail of slaughter and conquest and genocide that'd make Stalin blush. If he didn't invent them himself, then either they exist independently of him and he's not necessary to define them (and he certainly doesn't seem to honour them himself), or he got them from some higher level lawmaker and we're into an infinite regression of lawmakers. Postulating a supernatural source outside of human beings for these things doesn't solve the problem it sets out to solve, it just creates more issues.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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A belief holds no basis in reality. There is no good nor is there is no evil. There is only human nature. Just because you believe something exists does not make it real.

When you consider the abilities of Santa Claus they aren't those of man but of a god. Monotheism is rampant with polytheism. If you believe there is a Satan you crossed the line again into polytheism. If there is only one god then Satan could only be a human or myth.


I am the Snake that giveth Knowledge & Delight and bright glory, and stir the hearts of men with drunkenness.
To worship me take wine and strange drugs whereof I will tell my prophet, & be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all. It is a lie, this folly against self. The exposure of innocence is a lie. Be strong, o man! lust, enjoy all things of sense and rapture: fear not that any God shall deny thee for this.



Book of the Law

Aleister Crowley
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MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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Sure it does. Suppose that rock you mentioned rolled down a hill in an earthquake and struck the man, breaking his leg. He'd certainly call that a bad thing.
LOL I wonder if he would say 'god damn rock' (if an atheist uses that term does he/she believe in God subconsciously). The man might even go and hit the rock with a big hammer and shatter it into many pieces. A rock, being without any will at all, is not capable of either doing good or evil. The rock did not intentionally target the man so this should be under the heading, crap happens.

It's what the theologians would call non-moral evil, or physical evil, as the rock has no volition, but the man would certainly call it evil and he'd be right, who is there to gainsay him?
Nobody, but should that still come under the definition that exists here on this earth today? A 'car' on some other planet could be anything but a car as we know it.
Changing the meaning of the word wouldn't even have to take place on another planet, we could use this one in the same condition it is today. One country could call another 'evil' and go out and destroy it for all intensive purposes and not consider that an evil act, the rest of the world could disagree but until that nation itself sees acts like that as being wrong will not curtail such incidents, it will stay that way forever.

If the being that got eaten lacks the intellectual equipment to think in those terms, how could it define that as evil? I doubt anyone but a PETA lunatic would try to argue that livestock are justified in viewing humans as evil. They don't have the brains (the livestock I mean) to think about such things. With the possible exception of some of our nearer relatives among the primates, animals do not have ethics.
Whales and Dolphins are most likely the 2nd smartest beings on the planet. I wasn't trying to say that cattle know the difference (that implies that good and evil would play a part in their thought process). If the man was going to try and kill a bear so you could eat it and the bear did not want to be killed and he killed the man then that's fair.


I don't see the logic of that at all, and now you've implicitly hypothesized a third volitional consciousness, a deity, as the actual source of the rules. So where does the deity get those rules from? If he made them up himself, they're no more or less arbitrary than any other set of rules, they're just his opinions and need not necessarily concern us.
In all the civilizations that have existed on this earth (that we know anything about) were there any that did not have a set of rules that covered things that were NOT to be done, and if they were done was there a punishment attached.

Even if you have just the man making the rules then is he not playing god? What if he says he can use physical force on others and that is not evil but if anybody tries the same against him then it is evil.


One of his earliest strictures, in your view of these matters, is the injunction against killing, then he leads his chosen people along a trail of slaughter and conquest and genocide that'd make Stalin blush.
That all the Nations He removed had armies already would seem to indicate they were no strangers to war. That conquest only covered the area that was previously specified.
Was it a moral thing for God to do, under the right to life clause God was in error. What absolves Him of that, if He restored those lives would that absolve Him? If He gave His own son up for slaughter would that absolve Him? Does the Book of Wars of the LORD hold every name of the ones that died because God said it should be done?
The nitty gritty of it is that back then the way to be safe from outside armies was to have the strongest army around, weakness would be quickly acted on and you Nation would belong to another. Most of the descriptions have God winning in decisive ways, totally one-sided. While that is not good for the ones being pounced on it would have given them a reputation of being very strong and anybody left would be wary of invading. Trade was going on after all the fighting so the 'neighbors' would seem to have accepted the way they got their territory. It is the ones around today that bitch about it but don't bitch about the unjust wars of today.
Do you think Stalin (and anybody like him) has any thing that they would not do because they would have considered it a sin?

If he didn't invent them himself, then either they exist independently of him and he's not necessary to define them (and he certainly doesn't seem to honour them himself), or he got them from some higher level lawmaker and we're into an infinite regression of lawmakers. Postulating a supernatural source outside of human beings for these things doesn't solve the problem it sets out to solve, it just creates more issues.
For this exercise lets not assume that God has parents and that they are part of a society.

I assume it's the killing that is what honour is referring to. Death doesn't seem to be the worst that can happen to man, God certainly is said to be able to reverse that.
How much credit does Satan get in this, he introduced death to this world, for man and beast, who bitches about his role?
 

Said1

Hubba Hubba
Apr 18, 2005
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From the Devi'ls advocate, on of my favs


MILTON: ... Guilt is like a bag of ****ing bricks. All you gotta is set it down... Who are you carrying all those bricks for anyway? God? Is that it? God? Well I tell you. Let me give you a little inside information about God. God likes to watch. He's a prankster. Think about it. He gives man instincts. He gives you this extraordinary gift and then what does he do? I swear, for his own amusement, his own private cosmic gag reel he sets the rules in opposition. It's the goof of all time. Look but don't touch. Touch but don't taste. Taste but don't swallow. And while you're jumping on one foot to the next, what is he doing? He's laughing his sick ****ing ass off. He's a tightass. He's a sadist. He's an absentee-landlord! Worship that? Never!

LOMAX: Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven. Is that it?

MILTON: Why not? I'm here on the ground with my nose in it since the whole thing began. I've nurtured every sensation man has been inspired to have. I cared about what he wanted, and I never judged him. Why? Because I never rejected him inspite of all his imperfections...I'm a humanist. Maybe the last humanist. Who, in their right mind, Kevin, could possibly deny the 20th century was entirely mine? All of it, Kevin. All of it. Mine. I'm peaking, Kevin. It's my time now.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Both of you are being too hard on yourselves.

scratch,

Yes but isn't that what drives our economy? Dissatisfaction with how we look has spawned innumerable industries from cosmetics to fat farms. Isn't being convinced by Madison Avenue to be being unsatisfied with oneself, not loving who we are, a form of evil. There can be no love in the world unless we love ourselves, and in the end, industry promotes self hatred in order to sell product. We become slaves to our jobs so we can afford to look acceptable to standards created by advertising. A vicious and evil cycle of slavery to socially dictated norms.
 

MHz

Time Out
Mar 16, 2007
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Let alone that the chems in cosmetics bring on long term medical conditions that will shorten life quite abit.

Cliffy ever read the secret covenant?