Israel...

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
2,739
36
48
Ok, even that article with its made up unverifiable facts and quotes, stresses the Jewish community bought the land.
I believe it was written by Jews themselves. There are always a few good ones in the barrel!!!;-)
----
That quote you just posted said the Arabs left because there were jobs elsewhere, and not in Palestine. So they left.
I understood differently... they had to leave. Well, it also says they didn't have an idea at first what the Jews were up to, like establishing a Jewish State.
But if we ignore the blunt truth about how that points more to Ottoman economic policies than Jewish scheming, so what?
Yes, so what!! That was a long time ago - it is mentioned for historic purposes.
---
In the rest of the world, NINA signs were in high demand.
Please, explain what you mean with "NINA", Palestinian land?
These evil schemes always boil down to "The Jewish version of events is correct..but we don't like how reality portrays us in a bad light, let us attempt to rationalize our actions"
Nonsense!
Lets look at some more things from the site:
No, let's move a bit further ahead in history, to the UN Partition:
Partition
Sample from the link:
Was the partition plan fair to both Arabs and Jews?
"Arab rejection was...based on the fact that, while the population of the Jewish state was to be [only half] Jewish with the Jews owning less than 10% of the Jewish state land area, the Jews were to be established as the ruling body - a settlement which no self-respecting people would accept without protest, to say the least...The action of the United Nations conflicted with the basic principles for which the world organization was established, namely, to uphold the right of all peoples to self-determination. By denying the Palestine Arabs, who formed the two-thirds majority of the country, the right to decide for themselves, the United Nations had violated its own charter." Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest."
How do the 10% figure on owning Palestine?
How was it possible for the UN to override its own principles?
Read here:
Why did the UN recommend the plan partitioning Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state? "By this time [November 1947] the United States had emerged as the most aggressive proponent of partition...The United States got the General Assembly to delay a vote 'to gain time to bring certain Latin American republics into line with its own views.'...Some delegates charged U.S. officials with 'diplomatic intimidation.'Without 'terrific pressure' from the United States on 'governments which cannot afford to risk American reprisals,' said an anonymous editorial writer, the resolution 'would never have passed.'" John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."

Why was this Truman's position?
"I am sorry gentlemen, but I have to answer to hundreds of thousands who are anxious for the success of Zionism. I do not have hundreds of thousands of Arabs among my constituents." President Harry Truman, quoted in "Anti Zionism", ed. by Teikener, Abed-Rabbo & Mezvinsky.
Questions I have with regards to the land buy and owning all that land....

Let's consider the Jews bought all the land they are presently occupying, why don't they leave the rest of the land to the Palestinians? Why still build more settlements on land they do not own??

We need to establish who owns the land in Gaza and the West Bank.

My upset is over how the Palestinians are treated by the Jews, by America and by the rest of the world.

Why would Jimmy Carter get upset about the situation and write an entire book about it, IF the Jews really owned all of Palestine through legal purchases?

And why would England give the land to the Jews, if they owned it already?

And why would the UN draw up a sketch and designate it to the Jews, if it was already all theirs?

I understand that the Jews started buying land from about 1840 into the 1930. By 1930 the Ottaman empire was already broken up, so whom did they give the money to for the land?

If the Palestinians are only poor peasants and farmhands, then who owns the land they are working and living on now?

Break time!
 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
17
38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
Muhammed knew the Jews would fight the Muslims because his planned expansion of the Muslim faith included Jewish majority regions (like Jerusalem). For his religion to grow it meant fighting other religions (like the Christians, Jews and Zoroastians)

This a a very interesting point...that the most holy of Jewish, Christian and Muslim shrines that are located in Jerusalem are within a 2 square km of each other...

Temple Mount, the Wailing Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, Dome of the Rock, Church of the Holy Sepulchre...

It's as if the people who created these myths wanted their adherents to be forever in conflict...I'm surprised that Jews and Christians don't have shrines in Mecca...

Well actually Mecca was a Jewish settlement prior to being conquered by Muslims, so I suppose it's possible there's an ancient Jewish holy site there...
 
Last edited:

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
ok, lets go over some things here:

1.) Written by jews:

9/11 Conspiracy theories blaming America are written by Americans, that does not make them true.

2.) They "had" to leave because they had no work. So sad. Thats not the fault nor dutyN of Jewish immigrants to provide them jobs. If they wanted investment in the region they should have asked the government, ie the Muslim Ottoman Empire.

3.) NINA signs deal with how the rest of the world was the same way and its not like Palestinians suffered some grave injustice.

4.) Palestine (the Mandate) is not Palestine (the West Bank and Gaza), It included modern day Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, Jordan and large swathes of what is currently Saudi Arabia (after Jordan sold them the area for a port city).

The Mandate of Palestine was Jordan. 90% of the land of Palestine went to Palestinians (who renamed themselves Jordanians).

Then Israel became a state, and Jerusalem (despite being Jewish Majority) was to be its own region. Then Jordan tried to annex and occupy Jerusalem. This is why Israel refuses to "give back" Jerusalem, it never was Palestinian and is a Jewish majority city.

4.) Harry Truman

Truman was not a fan of Jews. His support of Partition was based on 2 things, public support shifting after newsreels of British assaults on Jews in Palestine, and fear that the Soviet backing of Israel would jeopardize the safety of the middle east by creating a soviet sattellite state unless America switched its position to be Pro-Israel.

The quote you attribute seems dubious, as a southern politican going on a pro-Jew policy would only cost him votes, especially if he did so publically. He was on shaky enough ground after desegragating the Army.

Now, to answer your Questions:

1.) Let's consider the Jews bought all the land they are presently occupying, why don't they leave the rest of the land to the Palestinians? Why still build more settlements on land they do not own??

Most settlements have been from Far Right Extremists, those settlements have been systematically torn down, and continue to be done so. There are upsurged where occassionally a far right party wins a minority government (briefly).

Most of the other settlements are in Jerusalem. This causes a large headache. They aren't illegal settlements on Paletine, as Palestine has no right to Jerusalem. Jerusalem was an occupied territory under Jordanian/Palestinian occupation. And if you asked Jerusalem in a vote, they would allow they settlements, as they have always favoured merging with Israel, being forced to remain independant by the UN, and then invaded and annexed by Palestine.

2.) We need to establish who owns the land in Gaza and the West Bank.

On a local level, the citizenry. That being said, while I own property, that property belongs to Canada as well and I can't sell it to North Korea.

On a larger level it was Egypt and Jordan. Both have made peace with Israel and declined any further claims on either Gaza or the West Bank.

So Gaza and the West Bank are occupied territories (somehow) but that aren't actually being occupied FROM anyone. They never were their own state..so they aren't "occupied palestine", they are just kind of in Limbo. Which is the problem, previously they were occupied from Jordan and Egypt...now they aren't from anyone..so who do you give them back to? They aren't viable states and Israel has stopped occupying Gaza (though it still provides them with free electricity and supplies). If Gaza declared independance nothing there would change except Israel would stop supplying free stuff.

3.) My upset is over how the Palestinians are treated by the Jews, by America and by the rest of the world.

Yet you aren't upset by how Palestinians are treated by other Palestinians? Palestinians suffer worse and more at the hands of other Palestinians than they do by Israel (which is a fifth muslim btw, and the Muslims in Israel are also soldiers and also involved in actions against palestinians)

The world treats Palestinians as above all other humans , all other suffering in the world. A bad day in Palestine is still a good day in many warzones around the world.

The better question would be, why does the world hate Africans and Asians but love Palestinians?

4.) Why would Jimmy Carter get upset about the situation and write an entire book about it, IF the Jews really owned all of Palestine through legal purchases?

The guys a nice man, but he's pretty daft. Now there are legitimate greivances, namely the current problem with the time Palestinians have been in Limbo.

Israel is still occupying them, but it can't annex the region and it can't give them back because no one will take them. It offered the Palestinians the state they wanted with the conditions they wanted, but Palestine turned it down. Because Arafat new he'd get shot if he made peace (just like the Egyptian President who made peace with Israel).

What should Israel do exactly? It can't set them as independant, it can't give them back to their host country and it can't annex them, all thats left is occupation.


5.) And why would England give the land to the Jews, if they owned it already?

Again, England didn't give away the property rights of Individuals, it drew the national boundries. If Canada gives Alberta to the US, that doesn't mean everyone in Alberta's house is now owned by the US government, it means Alberta would fall under the Jurisdiction of US laws.

Likewise England gave Israel the land in the sense that Israel was now the government of that land. Individual properties weren't awarded (other than previously government owned land)


6.) And why would the UN draw up a sketch and designate it to the Jews, if it was already all theirs?

Again, the Jews owned the physical property, they were awarded Sovereignty for a government, they are two different things.

7.) I understand that the Jews started buying land from about 1840 into the 1930. By 1930 the Ottaman empire was already broken up, so whom did they give the money to for the land?

Again, this is the same confusion. When they bought land, they were buying from the individuals who owned it. This is no different then when you buy a house in Canada, you buy it from the owner. Even though you now own property in Canada, you didn't directly buy the land from Canada. They bought the land from individuals. The government changed from Ottoman to British, but that just changes who they paid taxes too.


8.) If the Palestinians are only poor peasants and farmhands, then who owns the land they are working and living on now?

Again, thats a case by case basis. Some of them may own the land, some of them are renters (in apartments and whatnot). The West Bank was part of Jordan (its called the West Bank because its the West Bank of the Jordan river, the river Jordan is named for), so the land had evolved from 1840's to the 1960's in the same way as most of the world, and average middle class people own alot of the land.

But again, thats owning the property rights, not "owning" in the sense of what governments laws apply on that land.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
43
48
SW Ontario
Yes, no one dares interfere. Except the majority of the world. Except those who have to put up with the Palestinian "dream" of crushing everyone and everything.

Palestinians are Jordanians, that was Jordanian law as well. But Jordan won't help them anymore, too many times had jordan's helping hand been shot and bloodied.

Egypt used to run Gaza, it won't take the area back if you wrapped it in billion dollar bills and it blockades Gaza just as much as Israel (they both do).

Palestinians suffer because anytime anyone tries to help (Jordan, Egypt, Israel -see camp david) they just get attacked and assaulted.

It is a region run by groups who's sole reason to exist (and have money and power) is to fight Israel. They have no incentive to make peace, war keeps them in power and in money and in comfort (At the expense of other Palestinians).

Its a fun fact that more Muslims are involved in supressing Palestine than Jews, but its never reported that way.

Sums it up nicely.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
4,162
43
48
SW Ontario
Its not that complicated, the fund had alot of western money (in that the exchange rate and cost of living was very favourable), while Palestine was slums. The people there were approached as individuals, individuals who as individuals, would be just as happy taking a lump sum and moving somewhere nicer, with better schools and job opportunities for their families.

That's the irony....I believe if the Jihadi's succeed in destroying Israel, Palestine will go back to being a slum. Palestinians will voluntarily leave the land they are so passionately fighting for in droves, and I bet not a single ass will be hit by a door.
 

ahmadabdalrhman

Electoral Member
Sep 14, 2008
379
4
18
www.watchislam.com
This a a very interesting point...that the most holy of Jewish, Christian and Muslim shrines that are located in Jerusalem are within a 2 square km of each other...

Temple Mount, the Wailing Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, Dome of the Rock, Church of the Holy Sepulchre...

It's as if the people who created these myths wanted their adherents to be forever in conflict...I'm surprised that Jews and Christians don't have shrines in Mecca...

Well actually Mecca was a Jewish settlement prior to being conquered by Muslims, so I suppose it's possible there's an ancient Jewish holy site there...

heh heh heh

what drivel is that ?

Mecca always was arabic

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/spirituality-philosophy/78613-prophet-ibrahim.html
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
I have alway questioned how did they come to 'buy' the land? Was the sale made in desperation or under duress? Was it "unoccupied" as in how vacant houses are destroyed? See ... there is deception and outright fabrication on both sides of the fence and both camps are far from blameless.

The land legally bought by Zionists isn't the issue. Its the majority of what is now Israel which was was owned and occupied by Arabs which was seized by force and purified of non-Jews which is the problem. That is most of Israel.



Israel's historic and ongoing ethnic cleansing is an ongoing crime against humanity and war crime


Israeli settlement construction in the

West Bank has taken place under every
government since the beginning of
Israel’s occupation following the 1967


Arab-Israeli War.
2 In 2007, there are

more than 450,000 settlers living in 149
settlements in the West Bank including


East Jerusalem.
3


Settling an occupied territory is illegal
under international law. By its very
nature, military occupation is seen
as temporary. The Fourth Geneva
Convention explicitly prohibits
the transfer of the Occupying
Power’s civilian population into the
territory it occupies since such
settlement makes terminating the
occupation more difficult.


4 The illegal

status of Israeli settlements has been
confirmed by the United Nations (UN)
Security Council and the International

Court of Justice (ICJ) (see Annex 1)


Lets put it this way. The US would have been on better legal ground if it invaded and occupied Israel for its human rights violations, war crimes, crimes against humanity and possession of WMDs rather than Iraq....


 

Vanni Fucci

Senate Member
Dec 26, 2004
5,239
17
38
8th Circle, 7th Bolgia
the-brights.net
not just Islamic tradition but the arab tradition all arabic before the islam become the Abraham he was the built kaaba

Adnan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Historical Muhammad - Google Book Search


Though Mecca was a tribal society, it was socially open, accepting new groups through formal alliances or by marriages with Meccan women. There were outsiders in Mecca such as Jews and Christians, which fact, of course, becomes pertinent to the question of influences on Muhammad's inspiration. In addition, there may have been among the populace Abyssinian mercenaries who might have served as a protective military force for the Quraysh.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
2,739
36
48
This damn thread is killing me! Arguing with Zzarkov is like pulling hens teeth!!! Earth-as-one has presented volumes of material to no avail....
Anyway, before I give up here is an article about the damn land purchases. From what I gather, the Palestinians are actually selling land to the Israelis!!!!!!! I seriously wonder who wrote this story??


Who owns what, by Michael R Fischbach

Establishing accurate titles to land. Soon after the start of the 1967 war, Israel halted the Jordanian government’s campaign, begun 15 years earlier, to determine definitive titles to land, register it to its rightful owners and define a proper code for land. By putting an abrupt stop to this initiative, the Israeli government managed to get hold of land that was legally unsecured. This insecurity of title, which stopped owners from selling their parcels of land, became seriously problematic from the 1980s, when Israel declared all land that was not registered or under cultivation as “state land” - which amounted to confiscating all land that was deemed without an owner, in legal though not in real terms.

Registering and selling land. Sale procedures took a long time, with Jordanian law (still in force in the West Bank) forbidding the sale of undeclared plots. To get around the problem, the Palestinians used the wikala dawriyya which allowed a land-owner to dispose of land to any agent, who had a several-year period of time in which to sell his land to whomsoever he wanted. The Israelis allowed this procedure to continue and the exception became the rule. It conveniently permitted landowners the discretion legally to sell “unsellable” land, allowing Israel to acquire whole tracts of the occupied territories via intermediaries, in secret and without having to register the transaction publicly.

Avoiding forgery. Wikala dawriyya documents were sometimes forged or used to sell the same piece of land more than once. Other unscrupulous people forged land records to help Palestinians obtain visas to the US, since the American consulate in Jerusalem often required that applicants be property-owners. Boundary and inheritance disputes were worsened by non-existent or questionable records. Other land records were deliberately destroyed, including documents lost in several mysterious fires and other acts of vandalism in 1984-85. In contrast, the Israelis made great efforts to keep their documents secure, keeping some records outside the West Bank in Israel proper and even despatching researchers to Istanbul to obtain copies of old Ottoman records.

The Palestinian Authority now registers land in the areas under its civil control according to Jordanian procedures and land records turned over by the Israelis. This process has eased some of the problems Palestinians had experienced. Sales and first-time registrations can now take place.. Registration takes place through a new department, the Tapu, although this is short of funds, leading to a serious under-staffing that has hindered its efforts the resolve the thousands of such cases that have been filed since Israeli redeployment.


The Authority has turned to Jordan to obtain more secure land records for its future use. The Amman authorities promised last May to send them ten of thousands of copies of maps and other documents dating before 1967 and also agreed to train Palestinian land surveyors.

However, in terms of preventing Palestinians from selling land to Israelis, the PA has been less successful. In addition to the confiscated land, much West Bank land was sold to Israelis during the occupation. Purchases by the Hemanuta company, a subsidiary of the Jewish National Fund, began in 1971 and sales to private Israelis started in 1979. The company claims, in particular, to own the land on which stands the Palestinian refugee camp of Deheisheh, near Bethlehem, as well as a large area between the town and the settlement of Gilo

Statistics are hard to find, but some 100 sq km was sold between 1971-83 alone. Sometimes land was sold knowingly, with the Palestinian vendors provided with new homes in the West Bank, Jordan or even abroad. On other occasions, the sales took place through forged documents.


Sales have continued after the establishment of the PA. For instance, the Tel Aviv-based Bat-Hen Tshuva Group raised $35m from foreign Jews in autumn 1996 to buy land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. It also made purchases in and near Hebron and East Jerusalem at astronomical prices.


Based on historical precedent, the Palestinian authorities feared that land appropriated by individual Israelis would be claimed by Israel during the final status talks, and have taken measures to halt such sales. Since Jordan had made land sales to Israelis a crime punishable by death (from 1973-87 about 100 people were sentenced by Jordanian courts to death in absentia), the PA has imposed its own death penalty for such sales, including land in Jerusalem. This was announced by Freh Abu Meidan, the justice minister, on 6 May 1997. Twenty-two Palestinians have been since arrested and the Palestinian legislative council has begun debating a law to restrict sales. The assassination of three men accused of land deals with Israelis in May and June worsened tensions between the Authority and the Israeli government which has accused Palestinian officials of complicity in the killings.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
I can sleep peacefully tonight, knowing the Jews really own the land, whether by hook or crook, or buying it piece by piece off the Palestinians.

Probably only the really poor and not so clever Palestinians remain shivering in camps or ruins of former houses. Still, a real shame to the world.
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
65
48
Minnesota: Gopher State
"jimmy Carter is, was, and always will be a well-intentioned idiot, what is known to folks like the North Korean leadership as a "useful idiot". "


He had his faults. But the consensus is that the Bush regime was the worse in USA history.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
4,600
100
63
The part how Israel doesn't actually have anything like aparatheid?

The first thing he says where he admits there is nothing like aparatheid in Israel?

The closest is how in an occupied military territory and one the one hand claims Jewish palestinians have no right to return to Palestine (in "settlements' like hebron where they were chased out) but has said that Palestinians and their descendents should be moved into Israel?

Also the claim that somehow Israel should obey the Palestinian government. Carter still doesn't understand that just because a nation elects someone, doesn't mean other nations elected governments have to deal with them. Thats the nation as multiple governments.

He mentions Camp David accords that Israel agreed to but then fails to mentions why that isn't in place (or perhaps its the shoddy editing of the Video), The Palestinian Authority rejected it.

The PA got the agreement they wanted, the Israelis voted in favour of it and were ready to move ahead. And the Palestinian Authority said "No, on second thought, never mind"

And they did so specifically becaues of the details of the agreement Carter worked out with Egypt.

Aka, The leader of Egypt was assasinated by his own people for making peace with Israel. The Palestinian leadership were fine with sending people to die for their war, but they weren't prepared to risk death for peace. Literally all they had to do was sign the agreement and their would be a Palestine and Israel would be at peace. They declined.