We must never let Brussels turn Holocaust denial into a crime
- Thread starter Blackleaf
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Regarding the Holocaust-Why were children liberated at Auschwitz? Why was Ann Frank not gassed? Where are forensic studies by the Jews? Soil studies, mass graves, ---Have you looked at all the pictures??
Why were there no functional gas chambers when liberated? Where are the pictures of these thousands of dead? Why were there no gas chambers in Germany? Were all gas chambers in Russian occupied territory? There is no question regarding Jews being grossly mistreated. I heard the stories of how forced laborers were treated. The question is Gas chambers and cremating, digging up 600,000 bodies and making them disappear--I have repeatedly asked for scientific studies, and the reply is the same --we know that 6 million or 5.8 million were murdered--Colpy added another 4 million non Jews---Mauthausen a liberation witness said two ditches 10,000 bodies at Mauthausen?? Pictures? Has the area been checked for these mass graves?? I didn't hear that in 1953 when I was there. I saw the machine gun set up in the room near the Crematorium to shoot those that survived after gassing (all stone walls, not a very large room) I was horrified. I have a clear picture of the complex--posts where people were tied naked and water thrown on them, dog kennels where dogs were released to rip people apart, two gas chambers and how instead of water gas came out of the shower heads, the quarry and that men who couldn't carry were kicked off , shot --
I have a lot of questions and no one is answering--other that 6 million Why are Jews not disproving these HOLOCAUST denier scientific work with forensic studies? You boys are like the Inquisition --don't ask just swallow! Now we have a few million gassed in Camps and a few million gassed in trucks with diesel fumes--I provided a Diesel fume study made prior to these gassings and they contradict the claims--
Not one of you replied to anything that I've posted except Colpy that keeps telling me that Jews were so stupid that it took a German Holocaust denier who is in prison to tell them that the Russians lied. USA President and Pope paid homage to the 4 million murdered at Auschwitz and Colpy tells me no one ever took the 4 million number serious. You consider yourselves intelligent, all you do is spit --being objective is far beyond the parrot skills you exhibit. And is questioning a crime??
Why were there no functional gas chambers when liberated? Where are the pictures of these thousands of dead? Why were there no gas chambers in Germany? Were all gas chambers in Russian occupied territory? There is no question regarding Jews being grossly mistreated. I heard the stories of how forced laborers were treated. The question is Gas chambers and cremating, digging up 600,000 bodies and making them disappear--I have repeatedly asked for scientific studies, and the reply is the same --we know that 6 million or 5.8 million were murdered--Colpy added another 4 million non Jews---Mauthausen a liberation witness said two ditches 10,000 bodies at Mauthausen?? Pictures? Has the area been checked for these mass graves?? I didn't hear that in 1953 when I was there. I saw the machine gun set up in the room near the Crematorium to shoot those that survived after gassing (all stone walls, not a very large room) I was horrified. I have a clear picture of the complex--posts where people were tied naked and water thrown on them, dog kennels where dogs were released to rip people apart, two gas chambers and how instead of water gas came out of the shower heads, the quarry and that men who couldn't carry were kicked off , shot --
I have a lot of questions and no one is answering--other that 6 million Why are Jews not disproving these HOLOCAUST denier scientific work with forensic studies? You boys are like the Inquisition --don't ask just swallow! Now we have a few million gassed in Camps and a few million gassed in trucks with diesel fumes--I provided a Diesel fume study made prior to these gassings and they contradict the claims--
Not one of you replied to anything that I've posted except Colpy that keeps telling me that Jews were so stupid that it took a German Holocaust denier who is in prison to tell them that the Russians lied. USA President and Pope paid homage to the 4 million murdered at Auschwitz and Colpy tells me no one ever took the 4 million number serious. You consider yourselves intelligent, all you do is spit --being objective is far beyond the parrot skills you exhibit. And is questioning a crime??
einmensch..... Karrie brought up a very good point which you have not answered...... If you are Canadian as the flag by your avatar implies, how can you not know what the poppy signifies. If you aren't Canadian, then I say put you countries flag up and remove my countries flag from your avatar.
All very valid questions you present but the Holocaust is an important industry in many ways as you no doubt know.
Avraham Burg was a pillar of the Israeli establishment but his new book is causing a sensation. It argues that his country is an "abused child" which has become a "violent parent". And his solutions are radical, as he explains to Donald Macintyre
By Donald Macintyre
November 01, 2008 "The Independent" In shorts, T-shirt and cotton kippa, Avraham Burg is sitting in his sukka, the temporary booth that every observant Jewish family in Israel builds outside their home for the joyous religious holiday of Sukkot, and talking with some disdain about the holocaust "industry".
The sunlight is filtered through the roof of palm leaves, the decorative strings of apples, coloured balls and paper streamers almost motionless on this still October morning. Nearby the autumn desert flowers are blooming and a ladder up against a tree indicates that someone has recently been picking olives. Here in Nataf, the select, upper-middle-class community idyllically set in the Jerusalem Hills where Burg lives with his wife Yael, just 1,000 metres from the border with the West Bank, it's momentarily hard to focus on the sombre subject matter of his latest, explosive book, one which by his own – if anything understated – account "singlehandedly shook the foundations of the Zionist establishment overnight".
It isn't long since Burg was a blue-chip member of that same Zionist establishment. The son of a long-serving government minister, from the time of David Ben-Gurion's government, he has a classic top-drawer Israeli profile. True, he was on the left: after army service as a paratroop officer and graduating from Hebrew University he was a star of the movement against the first Lebanon war – his charisma if anything enhanced by the fact than unlike many of his comrades he was religious. He was injured in the grenade attack by a right-wing fanatic on a Peace Now protest in 1983 which killed another demonstrator, Emil Grunzweig. But he was quickly swept into mainstream public life, becoming first an adviser to the then Prime minister Shimon Peres, then a Knesset member, then Speaker of the Knesset, head of the Jewish agency and the World Zionist Organisation and the almost-victorious candidate for the Labour Party leadership in 2001.
It was not until his last year as a Knesset member that he began to build a reputation as something of an enfant terrible in Israeli intellectual and political life. In 2003 he wrote a widely publicised and much argued-over piece in Israel's mass circulation Yedhiot Ahronot in which he said that Israel had to choose between "racist oppression and democracy" and that "having ceased to care about the children of the Palestinians, should not be surprised when they come washed in hatred and blow themselves up in the centres of Israeli escapism".
But his book The Holocaust is Over: We Must Rise from its Ashes – published this week in Britain – caused a much bigger sensation when it came out last year in Israel, at once becoming a best-seller and provoking a furious reaction not only from the right but from many of Burg's former colleagues on the political centre-left. In the book – a compelling mix of polemic, personal memoir, homage to his parents and meditation on Judaism – Burg argues that Israel has been too long imprisoned by its obsessive and cheapening use – or abuse – of the Holocaust as "a theological pillar of Jewish identity". He argues that the living role played by the Holocaust – Burg uses the regular Hebrew word Shoah or "catastrophe" for the extermination of six million Jews in the Second World War – in everyday Israeli discourse, has left Israel with a persistent self-image of a "nation of victims", in stark variance with its actual present-day power. Instead, the book argues, Israel needs finally to abandon the "Judaism of the ghetto" for a humanistic, "universal Judaism".
If you are asking a question to learn, why do you condemn so if what you learn isn't what you want to hear?
The evidence which supports the claim that about nine to eleven million people including approximately six million Jews was presented at the Nuremberg trials: <-this is a quote from Earth as One So Yes a question of number does exist. Very immature post Colpy, shallow.
Sounds to me that most of you really like to hate. I don't believe that I have said anything hateful? Karrie, Do you know what a Poppy Day represents? It is observed on 11 November to recall the end of World War I on that date in 1918. I understand why you wear a poppy. Do you expect the French Canadians to stand and sing the "Maple Leave For Ever" We sang "God Save the Queen" or "The Maple Leaf for Ever". What did you sing? So if a French Canadian doesn't sing The Maple Leaf, does that mean he is not a Canadian? Do Jehovah Witnesses wear poppies, stand for O Canada? Are they Canadians? Do you expect Asians, Japanese, East Indian, Russians , Greek, Arabs and Persians, Serbs, Croatians, Slovakians, Slovenian, Macedonians, Africans Germans etc. to wear poppies? Actually I wore distributed, a orchestrated 6 or 7 Remembrance Day Ceremonies, had an excellent relationship with one local legion and have been extremely proud of Canada's conduct.( Afghanistan is a crime) The High School demanded all males to join Army Cadettes or volunteer for Air or Navy. I served on the HMS HOOD. Nice to see that I have united all of you.
Just remember every time you meet little Germans-from the Spencer Tracy -Judgment at Nuremberg--your resources?
50+ years ago -Papa and I were talking and I expressed my hatred for Russians. He said, "Peter, do you think a Russian dad loves his child less than I love you."
Some of you need to think-No I'm not a skin head I don't know any I know a few rednecks very nice guys but they figure the USA should just nuke all those Sandniggers and at Pearson
International I jump into a cab and the polite turbanned guy is driving.
I don't hate anyone. Yiddisch Jews have been very good to us and am very grateful that they made our survival easier. Better than the German Catholic Priest who could not care less.
But the Zionists are not the same as these people. Nice to see that many of you are so tolerant.
For now I'm going to read Earth as One's lengthy post.
Sounds to me that most of you really like to hate. I don't believe that I have said anything hateful? Karrie, Do you know what a Poppy Day represents? It is observed on 11 November to recall the end of World War I on that date in 1918. I understand why you wear a poppy. Do you expect the French Canadians to stand and sing the "Maple Leave For Ever" We sang "God Save the Queen" or "The Maple Leaf for Ever". What did you sing? So if a French Canadian doesn't sing The Maple Leaf, does that mean he is not a Canadian? Do Jehovah Witnesses wear poppies, stand for O Canada? Are they Canadians? Do you expect Asians, Japanese, East Indian, Russians , Greek, Arabs and Persians, Serbs, Croatians, Slovakians, Slovenian, Macedonians, Africans Germans etc. to wear poppies? Actually I wore distributed, a orchestrated 6 or 7 Remembrance Day Ceremonies, had an excellent relationship with one local legion and have been extremely proud of Canada's conduct.( Afghanistan is a crime) The High School demanded all males to join Army Cadettes or volunteer for Air or Navy. I served on the HMS HOOD. Nice to see that I have united all of you.
Just remember every time you meet little Germans-from the Spencer Tracy -Judgment at Nuremberg--your resources?
50+ years ago -Papa and I were talking and I expressed my hatred for Russians. He said, "Peter, do you think a Russian dad loves his child less than I love you."
Some of you need to think-No I'm not a skin head I don't know any I know a few rednecks very nice guys but they figure the USA should just nuke all those Sandniggers and at Pearson
International I jump into a cab and the polite turbanned guy is driving.
I don't hate anyone. Yiddisch Jews have been very good to us and am very grateful that they made our survival easier. Better than the German Catholic Priest who could not care less.
But the Zionists are not the same as these people. Nice to see that many of you are so tolerant.
For now I'm going to read Earth as One's lengthy post.
why are you questioning the numbers? What does it matter if it was 1 million...2 million...6 million...or 10 million. The Nazi's systematically exterminated "undesirables" through their entire reign of terror over Europe. This is a fact! There is no denying it. Arguing over the numbers, when we are looking at millions no matter what, or how they carried out this extermination is nit picking.
It's the beginning of denial. It goes from 10 million, to 6 million, to 2 million, to "never happened".
I think what many people now see and understand is that the systematic elimination of millions of people today as we speak is and has been overshadowed by the Holacaust events. The exterminations continue unabated and yet there is hardly a murmur about the Congo or Somalia or any of a dozen regions undergoing corporate-military rape and destruction, a case in point is the near total destruction of Iraq and the murder of 1.5 million innocent civilians or the 500,000 starved in Irag between 91 and 2003 by sanctions on food and medicine. So while we should remember the victims of WW2 we should not do it at the expence of todays victims or the still living.
What you are doing....and what many like you do....is the exact opposite..... you are remembering the horrors of the present at the expense of the past.
You all discount what has happened in the past to push what is happening now instead of using what has happened in the past to accentuate the present. To show that nothing has been learned. By belittling the past holocausts you are supporting the deniers and not learning yourself.
"The beginning of denial". Denial is not a crime JTF or a sin or negative in of itself. The word itself has become twisted and warped as have the histories of the people. Denial of rascism or denial of exceptionalism or denial of hate, all of these are good things. What gives you the right to misappropriate a word? Denial is an Israeli permanent state of mind.
That's a good argument, but you know that history is written by the victors usually. If the elemnts of the Holocaust are in fact facts why the fear of examination, why the religious defence of ignorance over scholarship? There have been many butcherings of the vanquished why do we hear only of the Jews, why do we not celebrate the memories of all the innocent victims? What I have learned is that history and propaganda should not be confused with each other and that history will reveal itself while propaganda cannot survive the investigation.
I discount a lot of things I'v been told were true, I think it's a good policy.
I agree. But it should not be a crime to who question the numbers, the evidence or even if this ever happened.