Would Jesus, the Bringer of Light, condemn Yahweh for his mass murders?
- Thread starter French Patriot
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No more so than an author who takes you to a false moral conclusion. Fiction is fiction.
Be it fiction or fact, any moral position one takes comes from the thinking of what is presented, which is put against your existing moral biases.
Regards
DL
Surely you cannot be unaware of the many murderous atrocities attributed to Yahweh, or the Israelites acting on his directives, in the Old Testament.
Nonsense. First off morality doesn't inform all thinking. I don't need morality to ponder if 2 plus 2 equals 4. So one can have a position on a subject or issue without putting anything 'against' one's morality. Secondly i think you're conflating morality with ethics. Many questions are ethical questions but may not be a moral one.
And you didn't address what I said about false morality at all. So your comment isn't relevant.
See - that's what happens when you confuse fiction with fact or reality.
Please see my post #8 concerning a definition of "murder", DS. The key word for me in the post is "applicable".
Yes I saw that post. You're just quibbling over a legalistic definition of murder, you can't be seriously trying to argue that there isn't a lot of slaughter in the OT. Sometimes the text identifies how many were killed in various events, and when it does, you can add them up. It's almost 3 million people according to one source I've seen. And there are many for which the count is unknowable, like the slaughter of the Egyptian first born, and the burning of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the Noachian flood, and the Egyptian army he drowned as the Israelites were leaving. It must be at least tens of millions in total.
Drunk with Blood: God's Killings in the Bible: Wells, Steve: 9780988245112: Amazon.com: Books
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I disagree that there is no morality in math. We are to try for the good of the many and not the few.
You critique without arguments, so you win this one hands down.
Regards
DL
My BibleGateway search for "God killed" and "God murdered" references in the Bible yields zero. Can you point one out for us? Thanks.
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.
Read, hear, and study Scripture at the world's most-visited Christian website. Grow your faith with devotionals, Bible reading plans, and mobile apps.
What did you expect? That’s a site with an obvious agenda, it’s not going to focus on god’s evil deeds. Have you actually read the Old Testament? I’ve already pointed out four in my post you cited, maybe you didn’t read that either. According to the book I referenced, there are 154 more such instances of god slaughtering large numbers of people, or having others do it under his direction.
Try this: https://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2010/04/drunk-with-blood-gods-killings-in-bible.html
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Searching BibleGateway is going to find only phrases used in the Bible, and it doesn't put things that way. I've given you a link to all 158 instances, and it gives chapter and verse. Look 'em up.
Then you are struggling with what the definition of morality and math is.
Yeah, that's actually communism, not religion.
I made a perfectly valid argument. Your lack of understanding of it doesn't change that. Math is amoral, 1+1 =2 regardless of your moral stance, your religion, etc. But apperently you think that isn't true for some reason. Apperently you feel that morality DOES dictate what the answer is, reality and logic be damned. Oh well - I suppose someone with imaginary friends must be expected to play a little loose with reality. But let's not pretend i didn't make an argument.
The book I am referencing is the Bible, DS. Neither the original scribes nor generations of believers since consider the God of the Bible murderous. There is one however who is regarded this way:
“You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies” (John 8:44).
We don't know what the original scribes thought, they didn't offer editorial comments. As for believers, of course they don't consider him murderous, that's not consistent with they way they want to think of him so they'll just dismiss it or refuse to engage on the subject, as you're doing. But any unprejudiced reading of the OT makes it pretty clear that, as Richard Dawkins put it, "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." (The God Delusion, page 31).
And how many deaths can we lay at the feet of Satan as reported in the OT? Only ten, the sons and daughters of Job, and God bears some culpability for those too because he allowed Satan to do it as part of a bet. So the score is, where numbers are given, God, about 2.8 million, Satan, 10. No contest.
There are no “God murdered” statements In Scripture as recorded by the original scribes.
It is not the mechanics of math at issue. It is it's application.
Numbers matter in choosing the right moral path.
All Christian and myriad of Abrahamic based cults and religions, including Islam, are slave holding ideologies, and have basically developed into intolerant, homophobic and misogynous religions.
Both of our mainstream religions have grown themselves by the sword instead of good deeds and continue with their immoral ways in spite of secular law showing them the moral ways.
Jesus said we would know his people by their works and deeds. That means Jesus would not recognize Christians and Muslims as his people, and neither do I. Jesus would call Christianity and Islam abominations.
Gnostic Christians did in the past, and I am proudly continuing that tradition and honest irrefutable evaluation based on morality.
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Humanity centered religions, good? Yes. Esoteric ecumenist Gnostic Christianity being the best of these.
Supernaturally based religions, evil? Yes.
Islam and Christianity being the worst of these.
Moral people will agree.
Regards
DL
It is literally the mechanics of math that is at issue. But lets take your position and see how that turns out.
If apples cost 1 dollar each, how many dollars will i need to bring with me if i want to buy 8?
See? No morality in a practical application.
If i'm looking to build a bridge and i need it to support 100,000 of vehicle weight and the engingeering math says that i need 1 girder for every 10,000 lbs of weight, how many do i need to put in the design?
No moral questions.
Now lets step it up a bit - "if i want to gas to death 100 (ethnic people of your choice) and it takes 1 litre of gas per 10 people to kill them, how many litres of gas do i need?
Is the math the moral issue there? No - no it is not. Whether or not you should kill people in a genocide is a moral issue but it's completely 100 percent seperate from the math. It's a moral issue regardless of how many litres of gas it takes to kill them. Likewise, the math is the same whether it's killing people or mosquitos. So the math itself is irrelevant to the moral question.
Your statement is patently ridiculous. Math has no moral components. And trying to switch to 'application' is just a cheesy dodge. You should be deeply ashamed of that kind of 'discussion skill'.
I appreciate that having completely made an ass of yourself with the math issue you feel like changing the channel. Unfortunately if you're not bright enough to engage in simple math issues and discussions successfully i can't imagine why you'd think it was worth my time to engage with you on more complex stuff. I mean, what could you possibly bring to the table on complex issues if you can't work out that 1+1=2 isn't a moral issue?
All i can tell you is that spending too much time fixating on a fictional character can lead to questionable behavior and you should be careful of that, sounds like you've got enough to deal with as it is. There are some excellent online learning tools to sharpen your logic and discussion skills, you might want to do a few google searches.
That is your issue, not in mine.
The good of the many outweighs the good of the few.
See how easy it is to argue to where you cannot argue against the issue.
Regards
DL