“Wokeness” in Canada and elsewhere…

[Serryah]

Well, ok, I’ll give it a shot at a definition.

The term “woke” started out meaning the state after waking up. About a 100 years ago it also was also being used at a term to becoming aware of the injustices around you. This definition of its use became more widespread into the 60’s…so more than 1/2 a century ago.

Then in the 2010’s Activists & the Media picked up on the term again in an expanded form for the 1930’s (‘stay woke’ etc…) meaning creating an awareness of various perceived social injustices like racism, sexism, etc…still a good thing. Become aware and rethink old paradigms.

The last decade+ the term seems to have become weaponized beyond creating an awareness to….an expanded social engineering over the top push backed by bizarre tangents of politics, enforcement agencies, fringe elements, banks and corporations, past anything it was even a decade or two back into rewriting history & recreating society into a parody clown show with forced mandatory training for many professions in some many diverse and crisscrossing (and conflicting) directions that nobody really seems to understand it’s definition or consequences at this point even though we’re all swimming in it to some extent or another.

Whatever you chose to use for a definition of “Woke” or “Wokeness” now MUST be right…& you Must conform to evolving and conflicting directions of its definition that’s defined differently by so many different agendas…or you can run afoul of something or someone (singular, or plural for both) and end up in career ending positions or persecuted by your government or financial institution or worse….& nobody can give it clear, concise modern, current definition of Woke or Wokeness at this point it seems.

It went from being something positive, to a runaway train of bizarreness fueled by political and social agendas and it’s so far down its own rabbit hole that those at its core either can’t see that it’s happening or don’t care that it’s happening or just have a really bizarre sense of humour (???) and I’m not sure which is which, or which combination of which, but it seems like it’s going to come to a head… and the consequences of that are anybody’s guess.

Now, admittedly, I do love a good meme and a laugh, & when conflicting tracks of this goat rodeo put two different ironic trains onto a collision course, I do see the humour in it, and I do have the urge to go make microwave popcorn, and watch.

Like Dylan What’s-His-Pickle and that American Beer, or the whole 72 (or however many there are this week) genders vs generally two washrooms to chose from thing….those I can find humour in.

Other examples are beyond belief and just beyond beyond entering into the tragically absurd….like the complete abuse of the human rights tribunal system in Canada for example.

Anyway, that’s MY definition of the current form of Woke & Wokeness that’s currently beyond a unified definition. What’s yours? What’s the definition from each person here?

My definition is similar, and a lot like Dex's.

So if we can agree on it, then why is being woke such a horrible thing? Why is "Wokeness" such a horrible thing?

To be fair, I'm not talking the extreme of it but even just the "We can agree that racism is in and of itself wrong" "wokeness".

Too many are taking woke and wokeness to negate ANY sort of truth that racism and bigotry exists, and if you say it does, well you're "Wrong" or "Evil" or whatever because you're "woke" to it.

That I think is the biggest issue of it.

The denial that these things did, have, and are happening.

I think the persecution that is going on does go to the extreme in too many cases, and yet in some cases it doesn't go extreme enough.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

My definition is similar, and a lot like Dex's.

So if we can agree on it, then why is being woke such a horrible thing? Why is "Wokeness" such a horrible thing?

To be fair, I'm not talking the extreme of it but even just the "We can agree that racism is in and of itself wrong" "wokeness".

Too many are taking woke and wokeness to negate ANY sort of truth that racism and bigotry exists, and if you say it does, well you're "Wrong" or "Evil" or whatever because you're "woke" to it.

That I think is the biggest issue of it.

The denial that these things did, have, and are happening.

I think the persecution that is going on does go to the extreme in too many cases, and yet in some cases it doesn't go extreme enough.

I wouldn't call "racism is wrong" wokeness. Wokeness to me is the extreme where every little word said by anybody at any time must be edited or sanctured based upon today's standards (and not the common sense standard like "racism is wrong" but more extreme that everybody who is white must be racist etc..) That to me is wokeism. And if I use the word on you it is an insult (and no I would not personally use that word on you -- it is the collective you).

 

[Serryah]

I wouldn't call "racism is wrong" wokeness. Wokeness to me is the extreme where every little word said by anybody at any time must be edited or sanctured based upon today's standards (and not the common sense standard like "racism is wrong" but more extreme that everybody who is white must be racist etc..) That to me is wokeism. And if I use the word on you it is an insult (and no I would not personally use that word on you -- it is the collective you).

Maybe not you, but there are people out there who are calling it just that. Simple acknowledgment of racism is "wokeness".

Reality is, everyone - regardless of color, religion, etc - is racist, bigoted or whatever, at one point in their lives. Whether it's through ignorance or just plain not truly getting the reason why a 'thing' may be considered racist or bigoted, it'd doesn't change the fact of the matter that for that one moment, they were racist. What really does matter is how a person reacts and changes when they're TOLD something is racist or bigoted. That doesn't make me 'woke', it just makes me a realist.

( But that said, there are also those who take the "You're a racist" to the extreme, like the wackadoo in the story Ron brought up. Because while there may be a academic definition of racism that means to 'suffer' from racism, one must fall under the systemic abuses of racism, I personally think that's the wrong way to look at it. Because in doing so, that excuses and excludes - for example - black people who are CLEARLY racist themselves.)

To me racism is simple: if you hate, revile, have disgust or distrust of someone just based on the color of their skin or their "race" etc, you're racist.

Calling people out who are like that isn't "woke" and a negative thing, it's something that should be common sense, something one should do to prevent unfairness. Yet there are people who use the term as a slur against those who stand up against racists and racism, as if doing so is a bad thing. And that's where the issue comes in.

 

[Ron in Regina]

OK, this is interesting. Can I safely (?) guess at the timeframe that each of you (Ski, Serryah, & Dex) either formed your definitions…or the timeframe your definition is bridging?

Again, this is just guesswork or discussion, knowing I’m making assumptions based upon my own definition of Woke/Wokeness so I fully expect to be wrong.

Chronologically as they’ve been posted, I’m going to guess/assume that Dexter is spanning maybe the last two decades in time? Serryah maybe formed her opinion about 15 years ago?….& IdRatherBeSking formed his opinion in the last 5 years?

Reciprocally, best guess, when did I form my opinion on Woke/Wokeness?

Is the Woke/Wokeness movement or mindset or whatever label you each think individually fits reached its peak or close to it? Is it just getting started and we’ve seen nothing yet (?) or has it twisted in the last decade to the point where there’s going to be enough blow-back from those outside the Wokeness umbrella that it’s going to regress somewhat rebounding to a place that society is prepared to reset back to? Perhaps nowhere near back to where it was….But back somewhat regardless?

(I’m hoping this discussion leads towards the topic of Woke-Washing as that is an interesting & perhaps frustrating direction all unto itself)

Urban Dictionary: woke washing

Using social justice as a marketing strategy

www.urbandictionary.com

In any movement (pick your own label) there’s going to be extremists, and they will probably be the noisiest, and garner the most attention…on both sides of a movement…with most relatable to the most people.

In its extreme, on either side, on this topic, and some of it is government sanctioned & enforced depending on where you live….is this causing division? Is/are anti-racist policies for example, when pushed to the extreme and funded by the government, actually racist themselves? Same with other topics circling the Woke orbit?

 

[Serryah]

OK, this is interesting. Can I safely (?) guess at the timeframe that each of you (Ski, Serryah, & Dex) either formed your definitions…or the timeframe your definition is bridging?

Again, this is just guesswork or discussion, knowing I’m making assumptions based upon my own definition of Woke/Wokeness so I fully expect to be wrong.

Chronologically as they’ve been posted, I’m going to guess/assume that Dexter is spanning maybe the last two decades in time? Serryah maybe formed her opinion about 15 years ago?….& IdRatherBeSking formed his opinion in the last 5 years?

Mmn, I'd guess my formation about 'wokeness' has been ongoing since I was a teen, to now. It's a gradual thing that's changed in some ways; so... 20-25 years or so is more likely.

Reciprocally, best guess, when did I form my opinion on Woke/Wokeness?

I'm not sure when you would have formed your ideas; I do think, because you're older, likely longer ago, but it's perhaps changed over time too.

Is the Woke/Wokeness movement or mindset or whatever label you each think individually fits reached its peak or close to it?

Depends on how you mean it; acknowledging racism itself as wokeness, I don't think we've hit a 'peak' yet, because there are still too many that deny racism exists.

But wokeness as a slur/undesirable thing, I really hope we do reach the peak soon because it's getting stupid, and takes away from the issue itself, to be honest.

Is it just getting started and we’ve seen nothing yet (?) or has it twisted in the last decade to the point where there’s going to be enough blow-back from those outside the Wokeness umbrella that it’s going to regress somewhat rebounding to a place that society is prepared to reset back to? Perhaps nowhere near back to where it was….But back somewhat regardless?

I think it's the later.

(I’m hoping this discussion leads towards the topic of Woke-Washing as that is an interesting & perhaps frustrating direction all unto itself)

Urban Dictionary: woke washing

Using social justice as a marketing strategy

www.urbandictionary.com

Ugh, I didn't know it was a thing.

I think this idea is complicated though because it depends on the context. Let's pick the Cleopatra BSery that Jada Smith did; IMO, because she was claiming it was HISTORICALLY accurate, that was "woke washing" and she needed to be told to fuck off, cause Cleo wasn't Black.

But then you have something like Hamilton; technically "woke washing", but it's not meant to be historically accurate.

Hell, take the new Willy Wonka movie coming out; people are throwing fits because Hugh Laurie is cast as an Oompa Loompa. There's cries of "it should go to a dwarf/little person!" My question is why? It's a fucking fictional character and Hugh Laurie is funny, so casting him worked. Maybe they picked him because he fit the narrative for how the character was written? Maybe they had other reasons. But casting a dwarf could have come across as insulting, too. In this case it was damned if they did, damned if they didn't.

But again, it all depends on context of the issue. And other factors, to be honest.

In any movement (pick your own label) there’s going to be extremists, and they will probably be the noisiest, and garner the most attention…on both sides of a movement…with most relatable to the most people.

This is too true; the issue is the loudest are those claiming that being "Woke" is wrong, when it shouldn't be.

In its extreme, on either side, on this topic, and some of it is government sanctioned & enforced depending on where you live….is this causing division? Is/are anti-racist policies for example, when pushed to the extreme and funded by the government, actually racist themselves? Same with other topics circling the Woke orbit?

A good question and if we're going to be honest, a government that pushes racist policies while saying those policies are meant to be inclusive, is still racist. But there's also a blurry as fuck line in that too. Affirmative Action - and other things like it, like equality in the work place - can totally be racist, but it's also the only way to gain such equality because otherwise it's been historically proven that without it, only certain people will get certain jobs. Or certain education. As a society, we're not close to accepting people on the merits of their personhood and abilities. Because racism is still in our society, even in the undercurrent, there needs to be safeguards in place to ensure equality. Even if they'd be considered racist enabling if the situation didn't exist.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Well, in all fairness, if Gerard Butler can play not only one, but two leprechauns in the same movie, then Hugh Laurie as an Oompa Loompa isn’t that big of a stretch.

My opinion & evolving definition of Woke & Wokeness is only about the last decade or so, as I get busy, and I miss big stretches of changing cultural things, like, for example the first time I ever watched “Law&Order” it was in Season 9 or something like that….and the same thing with “The Simpsons”…but anyway Woke for me seemed like something potentially positive about 2010 and then it evolved (devolved?) into something else it seems.

I can see (and I’m not pretending to know more than I do, but this is what I expect) a pushback from the outside looking in at the Woke Umbrella with a rebound, just like in the LGBTQ+Etc…thread I will occasionally poke my head in to see if there has been a Split in the LGB’s from the TQ+Ect…yet or if that’s still down the road.

With Woke & Wokeness meaning different things to different people, it’s a tough one to debate without someone qualifying their definition before wading in, so the “Depends on how you mean it” is core to a position on the subject.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

Chronologically as they’ve been posted, I’m going to guess/assume that Dexter is spanning maybe the last two decades in time? Serryah maybe formed her opinion about 15 years ago?….& IdRatherBeSking formed his opinion in the last 5 years?

I haven't heard the term 'woke' or 'wokeness' at all before 3-4 years ago tops. If a definition existed before then, it was unknown to me. The phenomenon that it defines is definitely within the last 5 years.

And I need to go back and read Dex's response. The forum seemed to skip me to page 2 automatically.

 

[Serryah]

Well, in all fairness, if Gerard Butler can play not only one, but two leprechauns in the same movie, then Hugh Laurie as an Oompa Loompa isn’t that big of a stretch.

True.

My opinion & evolving definition of Woke & Wokeness is only about the last decade or so, as I get busy, and I miss big stretches of changing cultural things, like, for example the first time I ever watched “Law&Order” it was in Season 9 or something like that….and the same thing with “The Simpsons”…but anyway Woke for me seemed like something potentially positive about 2010 and then it evolved (devolved?) into something else it seems.

I can see (and I’m not pretending to know more than I do, but this is what I expect) a pushback from the outside looking in at the Woke Umbrella with a rebound, just like in the LGBTQ+Etc…thread I will occasionally poke my head in to see if there has been a Split in the LGB’s from the TQ+Ect…yet or if that’s still down the road.

There is a split in the GLBTQIA+ community; if they are honest, it's been there from day one. It's only gotten real bad the last few years though.

With Woke & Wokeness meaning different things to different people, it’s a tough one to debate without someone qualifying their definition before wading in, so the “Depends on how you mean it” is core to a position on the subject.

Pretty much.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Here’s a Celebrity asked to define Woke, who manages to give examples sort of without any definition…

How Bill Maher defines 'woke'

Bill Maher describes his frustration with the evolving meaning of “wokeness,” and how he believes it has deviated from the initial intention. Jake Tapper sat...

www.youtube.com

…& a reporter reporting on math being a form of white supremacy:

…& this feels like a parody of the idea of Wokeness:

…& this is both weird and somewhat interesting I guess. Not that I care about award shows but it shows that agenda if you want to win one I guess:

…& then this one is really weird (I had a dog that needed to pee in the middle of the night so here I am) about Diversity Equity Inclusion Training that’s…Woke?

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Maher's gotten old (he's 67). He used to be a left-ish libertarian. Now he's just an old guy furious that the world isn't what it was like back when his dick worked.

 

[Serryah]

Here’s a Celebrity asked to define Woke, who manages to give examples sort of without any definition…

How Bill Maher defines 'woke'

Bill Maher describes his frustration with the evolving meaning of “wokeness,” and how he believes it has deviated from the initial intention. Jake Tapper sat...

www.youtube.com

Maher is a dickhead and always has been.

…& a reporter reporting on math being a form of white supremacy:

A lot of video about nothing. He doesn't explain WHY his 2+2=4 (Aka Math)=whatever ideology he thinks it is/white supremacy. It's just whining about how to this one group it supposedly means that.

…& this feels like a parody of the idea of Wokeness:

Thirty seconds in and it's smashed together clips of how the Oscars are lacking in diversity (aka Wokeness to the right). Which they are.

…& this is both weird and somewhat interesting I guess. Not that I care about award shows but it shows that agenda if you want to win one I guess:

There is a point here; the awards should be on merit. The issue is, a lot of times the "merit" goes to the White guy, rarely to anyone else. What should upset people then isn't that the categories are there, but that they're needed at all. That said, movies are art and subjective anyway and a lot of crap movies get Oscars when they shouldn't.

But then I don't care 'bout them either. It's elitists giving themselves awards; meh.

…& then this one is really weird (I had a dog that needed to pee in the middle of the night so here I am) about Diversity Equity Inclusion Training that’s…Woke?

Locally and provincially it's become a "thing" to announce that for any Government stuff (municipal, provincial), that it's happening on the unceded land of the Mi'kmaq people. I'm of two minds on it: acknowledging that this is pretty much "stolen land", as they say, really doesn't do anything, I think. It's words that have nothing behind them because they're not said to mean anything other than trying to be "PC" (and maybe make the Natives shut up). On the other hand, at least it's an acknowledgement that the land was never given to the crown legally (though that circles back to it being lip service).

There is a purpose for DEI, but there's better ways to go about it so it means something. When you have DEI that does what the twat who gave that course did, that the officer killed himself from, that's doing nothing for anyone in any diverse way. What it's doing is making the whole DEI thing a joke, and worse.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Meh, both "sides" do it. Cherry-pick the worst possible outcomes of "themmuns," pretend it's the typical outcome, and darkly hint that the reason is themmuns are all pawns of the big bad bogeymonsters (Communists, non-White people, Klan, Nazis, whatever, who for reasons of their own are trying to DESTROY CANADUH! (or MERKUH)!

It's just a bit more implausible coming from the right, because why the left would WANT to be slaves of the bogeymonsters is unexplained, but why the right would want to be in a White male supremacist society is fairly obvious.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

I'm pretty woke today. Rolled out about 15 minutes before the alarm was set to go off. Feel pretty sharp. Looking forward to the boundless opportunity fuck up another day.

 

[harrylee]

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Chronologically as they’ve been posted, I’m going to guess/assume that Dexter is spanning maybe the last two decades in time?

I don't recall hearing the word "woke" in this context until just a few years ago, and that was in a negative context, somebody using it to deride somebody else's views as being soft-headed whining pinko etc. Two things always come to mind when I think about this stuff. First is that there appears to be an idea floating around that people have a right not to be offended, which is nonsense, the only way never to give offense is to never say anything at all, so that one's not flying. No doubt there are people who'd take silence as offensive too, believing you should say something in support of them. That one's going nowhere too. Second, not all opinions are legitimate. There appear to me to be three kinds of opinion: informed opinion, uninformed opinion, and lunatic opinion. Somehow the idea's got around that they're all equally legitimate and deserve to be taken seriously. That's also obvious nonsense, only the first needs to be taken seriously, the others deserve no attention at all. It's not always easy to spot the uninformed and lunatic opinions, but usually people give themselves away eventually.

Same kind of discussions happen around questions like "How many genders are there?" You can't have a sensible conversation about that until you know what the questioner thinks gender means, and that's such a fluid and variable thing it's often hard to have a conversation even when you *do* know that. It might be a lunatic opinion, for instance. Political correctness is another such idea, a subject rife with uninformed and lunatic opinions about the right not to be offended. Nobody has a right not to be offended.

 

[Ron in Regina]

What about the “Shit Disturber” opinion just throwing things out there to see what sticks & gets conversations started? Not initially expecting to be taken seriously…?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

I think I’d call that the devil’s advocate opinion, sounds classier, but it could be informed, uninformed, or lunatic too.

 

[Ron in Regina]

I think I’d call that the devil’s advocate opinion, sounds classier, but it could be informed, uninformed, or lunatic too.

Maybe enough of all three to just be a bit dangerous. … motivated by just trying to get the conversation started.

 

[Jinentonix]

The denial that these things did, have, and are happening.

You mean like White slavery in America?

 

[Serryah]

You mean like White slavery in America?

I don't deny white slavery did happen though.

Other people do, and they're wrong.

White people enslaved white people, Middle Eastern people enslaved white people.

It happened.

That doesn't make black slavery any less or less tragic, or should be shrugged off considering how long it went on, and how 'recent' historical wise it was. And that there's still affects of it today.