Really? Got supporting evidence of this "fact". Do you have any evidence that insurgents don't bomb cafes, markets, and mosques?
Why They Hate Us...How Many Muslims Have US Killed In Last 30 Years?
- Thread starter JBeee
- Start date
The Quran doesn't seem to be very tolerant of people of other religions.
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (9:29 Jizya is the money that non-Muslims must pay to their Muslim overlords in a pure Islamic state.)
Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures. (98:6)
Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve, then they would not believe. (8:55)
Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know (8:60)
Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies and others besides, whom ye may not know (8:60)
Strive hard (Jihad) against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed. (66:9, See also 9:73)
…He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide. For them is a penalty in the life of this world, but harder, truly, is the penalty of the Hereafter… (13:33:34)
And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly (13:15)
Those who resist Allah and His Messenger will be among those most humiliated. (58:20 - The context for this verse is the eviction of the Jewish tribes of Medina and the confiscation of their wealth, land, and children by Muhammad).
And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah… (8:39 – “Persecution” in this context means resistance to Islam – defined in the prior verse as an unwillingness to believe (see verse 38). This passage was “revealed” following a battle that Muhammad deliberately provoked. Verse 2:193 essentially says the same thing and was also “revealed” at a time when the Muslims were not under physical attack).
See they not that We gradually reduce the land (in their control) from its outlying borders? (13:41 - See also 21:44)
And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things. (33:27, See also Bukhari 53:392)
And He made you heirs to their land and their dwellings and their property, and (to) a land which you have not yet trodden, and Allah has power over all things. (33:27, See also Bukhari 53:392)
Allah has promised, to those among you who believe and work righteous deeds, that He will, of a surety, grant them in the land, inheritance (of power), as He granted it to those before them; that He will establish in authority their religion... (24:55)
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instill terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them." This because they contended against Allah and His Messenger: If any contend against Allah and His Messenger, Allah is strict in punishment. (8:12-13)
SJP
Again read my post correctly - How did we arrive at a Secular Govt and Multiculturalism - Through our Judeo - Christian foundations - Evolution does not just apply to nature - It is part of growing.
Do you see the same in Arab Islamic countries - No - As to their root connection and nasty religions at their beginning -You live in the past -
Christianity is not what it was 2000 years ago - stop living in the past -
Again you have not answered any of my questions regarding the clear comparisons between Judeo Christian belief and extreme Islamists - which a substantial number of Muslims adhere to.
I have posted my reply again.Y
ou state at their root they are the same - I differ- then you state that Christians do not take the Bible literally while many Muslims do - So how are they the same today -
Christianity went thru a reformation and many Wars - Islam has been stuck at around 1200 AD. So how are they the same.
Our Democracies are founded upon many of the principles of Judeo -Christian teachings - Not Islam - So how are they the same -
We have fundamentalist Christians that do kill now and again - Rare but it occurs - Muslims do it on a regular basis. So how are we the same.
We believe in equality of all. Muslims do not. So how are we the same.
I could go on but choose not to. In my post I am referring to the Fanatics and the hardliners - I do have many friends whose religion is Muslim and they are as disgusted as I - Perhaps you should read some of Tarek Fatah's writings for a clearer insight to the religion.
PS - Have you ever read any of Tarek Fatah's writings?
I pretty much agree with most of what you have said, Goober. But I stick to my original contention. If you look at Koran and Bible, both religions are equally nasty; both say horrible things about nonbelievers, about infidels.
The difference in two religions lies in how they are implemented in practice. Christianity has had secularizing, humanizing influence on it, first by Reformation, than by Enlightenment, by science, by Atheism.
There has been no such influence on Islam, so Islam behaves today the way Christianity behaved before Reformation (Crusades, Inquisition, Medieval witch burnings etc.).
But at its roots, if you see what the Bible says and what the Koran says, there is really not much to choose between them.
SJP
For you
Daniel Pipes makes an excellent point about the Swiss minaret vote - Full Comment
The Western world has been agonizing of late over Switzerland's successful referendum banning the creation of new minarets. The gesture, we are told, is a great insult to Muslims, and sends the message that the West regards Islam as a dangerous, unwelcome religion. But as Daniel Pipes writes, Muslim nations seem to have no problem heaping the same sort of insults on Christianity …
"It raises delicate issues of reciprocity in Muslim-Christian relations. A few examples: When Our Lady of the Rosary, Qatar's first-ever church opened in 2008, it did so minus cross, bell, dome, steeple, or signboard. Rosary's priest, Father Tom Veneracion, explained their absence: "The idea is to be discreet because we don't want to inflame any sensitivities." And when the Christians of a town in Upper Egypt, Nazlet al-Badraman, finally after four years of "laborious negotiation, pleading, and grappling with the authorities," won permission in October to restore a tottering tower at the Mar-Girgis Church, a mob of about 200 Muslims attacked them, throwing stones and shouting Islamic and sectarian slogans. The situation for Copts is so bad, they have reverted to building secret churches."
For you
Daniel Pipes makes an excellent point about the Swiss minaret vote - Full Comment
The Western world has been agonizing of late over Switzerland's successful referendum banning the creation of new minarets. The gesture, we are told, is a great insult to Muslims, and sends the message that the West regards Islam as a dangerous, unwelcome religion. But as Daniel Pipes writes, Muslim nations seem to have no problem heaping the same sort of insults on Christianity …
"It raises delicate issues of reciprocity in Muslim-Christian relations. A few examples: When Our Lady of the Rosary, Qatar's first-ever church opened in 2008, it did so minus cross, bell, dome, steeple, or signboard. Rosary's priest, Father Tom Veneracion, explained their absence: "The idea is to be discreet because we don't want to inflame any sensitivities." And when the Christians of a town in Upper Egypt, Nazlet al-Badraman, finally after four years of "laborious negotiation, pleading, and grappling with the authorities," won permission in October to restore a tottering tower at the Mar-Girgis Church, a mob of about 200 Muslims attacked them, throwing stones and shouting Islamic and sectarian slogans. The situation for Copts is so bad, they have reverted to building secret churches."
Goober, I feel uncomfortable with agreeing with somebody from the Post, but I have already said that the minaret vote is an internal matter for the Swiss to decide.
Also, the other day I saw a mosque without minaret while driving, right here in Canada, so evidently Muslims themselves do not regard a minaret as an integral part of the mosque.
So I don’t see what the fuss is about. Now, if the Swiss had banned building of new mosques, I would have a problem with that.
Also, the other day I saw a mosque without minaret while driving, right here in Canada, so evidently Muslims themselves do not regard a minaret as an integral part of the mosque.
So I don’t see what the fuss is about. Now, if the Swiss had banned building of new mosques, I would have a problem with that.
SJP
You are avoiding the point - How minorities and religious minorities are treated in Arab Countries - And Iran - as they are Persian.
Why you feel uncomfortable agreeing with an article in the Post is beyond me - Truth is important - and it comes from variety of sources -
I think you should give that some serious thought.
I am avoiding nothing, goober. I have said it before, I don’t agree with how minorities are treated in Arab countries, but that is not the subject of this thread. The subject is, why is USA so unpopular among moderate Muslims.
If you wish to discuss how minorities are treated in Arab counties, I will be happy to discuss that with you, but post a separate thread.
SJP
your other post "Goober, I feel uncomfortable with agreeing with somebody from the Post,:
2 points avoided - Agreeing with something written in the post - If you only read opinions that agree with your point of view - would you consider that you are limiting yourself - I know that I have explained to people they should always read an opposing point of view - it provides perspective - how else can we come to the typical Canadian way of compromise without doing that. As to limiting the thread - You have a bad habit of trying to do that - A thread is like conversation - it goes this way and that - so I think you are a tad out of line on that. Just my opinion though.
I read the opposing viewpoints many times, Goober. I regularly browse the far right websites such as WorldNetDaily, TownHall etc, just to see what the opposition is thinking.
As to limiting the thread, I can understand the thread veering slightly off topic. But to go from discussing why USA is so unpopular with moderate Muslims to discussing why minorities are treated so badly, so shabbily in the Muslim world, well that is a big stretch, in my opinion.
As I said before, I will be happy to discuss that with you, just put up a separate thread.
Where does it say this thread is about moderate muslims?I cannot see moderate anywhere in the title.
Perhaps not, but as I understand, the gist of the thread is summarized in the following passage appearing in the original thread.
“I heard a different take on this subject at a recent conference on U.S. relations with the Islamic world. In addition to hearing a diverse set of views from different Islamic countries, one of the other participants (a prominent English journalist) put it quite simply. "If the United States wants to improve its image in the Islamic world," he said, "it should stop killing Muslims."
This tells me that the thread is about why so many Muslims (including moderate Muslims) have such a negative view of USA.
“I heard a different take on this subject at a recent conference on U.S. relations with the Islamic world. In addition to hearing a diverse set of views from different Islamic countries, one of the other participants (a prominent English journalist) put it quite simply. "If the United States wants to improve its image in the Islamic world," he said, "it should stop killing Muslims."
This tells me that the thread is about why so many Muslims (including moderate Muslims) have such a negative view of USA.
SJP
They hate their lives - they live in perpetual misery - they dispise other religions - so yes it is relevant -
JBeee: Modified from movie "A Few Good Men"
You can't handle the truth! We live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? The United States and Israel have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the Iranians & Palestinians and you curse those who fight for you. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know: that the death of Hamas and other terrorist organizations, while tragic, is best for the world. And our existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want others on that wall. You need others on that wall because you are incapable of doing the job you know deep down must be done.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. We have neither the time nor the inclination to explain ourselves to anyone who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom we provide, then questions the manner in which we provide it! We would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, we suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, we don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
You can't handle the truth! We live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? The United States and Israel have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for the Iranians & Palestinians and you curse those who fight for you. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what we know: that the death of Hamas and other terrorist organizations, while tragic, is best for the world. And our existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want others on that wall. You need others on that wall because you are incapable of doing the job you know deep down must be done.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. We have neither the time nor the inclination to explain ourselves to anyone who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom we provide, then questions the manner in which we provide it! We would rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, we suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, we don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
ironside
One thing about JBeee is he starts a thread then seems to disappear - perhaps the questions are to hard - or scared of the light - we called them shxt disturbers - still do as a matter of fact
With the insanity of the terrorists and the random acts of violence around the world, it is apparent that the United States has not killed enough of them. These people
hate us in the west, not because of all the problems we have shared and the fighting
done over the centuries. The real reason is because this religion is as fascist as the
any extreme right wing organization can be. They are nationalist in the sense of
religion in this case as their focal point. The Nazis used the Jews and other and other
groups. The Nazis also focused on how hard Germans were done by in Poland
and other neighbouring countries. The whole focus was, look at what the world has
done to us, its an outrage and we must fight back. The latest slogan coming from
some quarters is Islam will dominate the world. Does all this sound familiar?
We appease and appease, and sooner or later the White Paper of Peace in our time
will be signed and six months after that it will be all out war. This conflict will
feature fighting in our own country as well as everywhere else. Unlike a political
nation fighting nation we will see us fighting each other. There is nothing to be
gained by appeasement and there is no talks that can bring an end to all this.
Look at how much influence we have in Darfur. After all the talking is done there
is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Multiculturalism will be as dead as dead
can be and that I find to be sad, its something that could have worked.
There are two groups of people in the world, those who adhere to social society
according to the precepts of law, and the other, the tribal society that lives with
honor killings, blood feuds, revenge, and the list goes on. I am not saying we are
any better or worse, my point is we need to survive and preserve our way of life
and the planet is not big enough to accommodate both points of view, because
the Muslim world believes that if you are not Muslim you don't count.
Convert or die, and we may as well get on with the struggle, they're already
fighting us, and we are trying to contain a few mythical voices, ignoring the
screaming mass about to come at us. That is my view any way.
hate us in the west, not because of all the problems we have shared and the fighting
done over the centuries. The real reason is because this religion is as fascist as the
any extreme right wing organization can be. They are nationalist in the sense of
religion in this case as their focal point. The Nazis used the Jews and other and other
groups. The Nazis also focused on how hard Germans were done by in Poland
and other neighbouring countries. The whole focus was, look at what the world has
done to us, its an outrage and we must fight back. The latest slogan coming from
some quarters is Islam will dominate the world. Does all this sound familiar?
We appease and appease, and sooner or later the White Paper of Peace in our time
will be signed and six months after that it will be all out war. This conflict will
feature fighting in our own country as well as everywhere else. Unlike a political
nation fighting nation we will see us fighting each other. There is nothing to be
gained by appeasement and there is no talks that can bring an end to all this.
Look at how much influence we have in Darfur. After all the talking is done there
is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. Multiculturalism will be as dead as dead
can be and that I find to be sad, its something that could have worked.
There are two groups of people in the world, those who adhere to social society
according to the precepts of law, and the other, the tribal society that lives with
honor killings, blood feuds, revenge, and the list goes on. I am not saying we are
any better or worse, my point is we need to survive and preserve our way of life
and the planet is not big enough to accommodate both points of view, because
the Muslim world believes that if you are not Muslim you don't count.
Convert or die, and we may as well get on with the struggle, they're already
fighting us, and we are trying to contain a few mythical voices, ignoring the
screaming mass about to come at us. That is my view any way.