Why They Hate Us...How Many Muslims Have US Killed In Last 30 Years?

[SirJosephPorter]

SJP

Yes it is part of the discussion -
Jbeee brought that into the format. Post number 5
Avro also brought in Somalia - Is that also to be excluded -

It could be if you wanted it, I suppose. But the subject of the thread is, why there is such ill will among Muslim moderates towards USA? That is the subject that is rarely discussed. It is very easy to badmouth the Muslims. I have done that many times, there is nothing wrong with that.

But the subject that is much more interesting in my opinion is, why do the Muslim moderates not like USA? Clearly USA is doing something wrong.

 

[Goober]

It could be if you wanted it, I suppose. But the subject of the thread is, why there is such ill will among Muslim moderates towards USA? That is the subject that is rarely discussed. It is very easy to badmouth the Muslims. I have done that many times, there is nothing wrong with that.

But the subject that is much more interesting in my opinion is, why do the Muslim moderates not like USA? Clearly USA is doing something wrong.

Where do you see moderate??? Did a quick look - could not find it?

 

[Colpy]

There was no fighting between Shia and Sunni when Saddam was in power (I suppose he alone was doing enough killing for both). The infighting between Shia and Sunni started after Bush invaded Iraq.

So nobody is accusing Bush for killing half a million Iraqis (as I said before, USA does not set out to kill Muslims). However, USA does bear indirect responsibility for all the violence occurring in Iraq after the Iraq invasion.

Besides, Colpy may disagree, but I think Fundamentalist Islam is a bigger threat that USSR ever was. There was a balance of power (or balance of terror) between USA and USSR. Both were armed to the hilt, but nether dare attack the other, because they knew that whoever embarked upon the first nuclear strike will be paid back ten fold.

But here is the important difference between USSR and Taliban or Al Qaeda. USSR did not want their country devastated by nuclear war, so they did not attack USA. There was peace between the two for decades.

Al Qaeda or Taliban does not care if there is a hundred fold retaliation, they do not care if 100 million Muslims die as a result of US retaliation. If they can get their hands on a nuclear weapon, they will hit USA, hit it hard, and damn the consequences.

Possibility of nuclear warfare is greatly increased with Taliban or Al Qaeda, and in that respect, Taliban is a much more dangerous enemy that USSR (though perhaps not as powerful).

In World War 2, USA was shrewd enough to realize that Nazi Germany was a much more dangerous enemy than USSR. Unfortunately, they got things wrong in Afghanistan, they decided to support the wrong side (Taliban).

EXACTLY!!!!!!!

This is why Iran can not be permited to develop nuclear weapons.....

And, point of order , you said the Taliban were a more dangerous threat than the USSR. BIG difference between the tiny Taliban and world-wide Islamic fundamentalism. I would still disagree, but this new assertion is at least worthy of debate.......

 

[Colpy]

Indeed. This attitude is prevalent in USA (‘we did nothing wrong’). If USA does not learn from its mistakes with Taliban and with Saddam, it is destined to repeat them.

I think JBeee (or whoever wrote the article, if it is copy and paste) makes a very good point, why do the moderates in the Islamic world have such an enmity towards USA? One can understand Osama Ben laden, Mullah Mohammed Omar etc, and dismiss them out of hand. But why the ill feeling on the part of moderates?

I think the answer is that USA means well, they set out to do the right thing, then screw everything up and end up hurting those they wanted to help.

I think USA has to do some soul searching. Obviously whatever they are doing in the Middle East is not working. They have to ask themselves, what can we do differently and how?

If they go on with the same arrogant, swaggering attitude that we didn’t do anything wrong, they are destined to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

Reasonable, decent post.....although I think it is relevant to Iraq more than any other situation.......and come back in 20 years, let's see what Iraq looks like then.......it might all have been worth it.

 

[Goober]

SJP - Check the link

Arab Human Development Reports

 

[Francis2004]

But the subject that is much more interesting in my opinion is, why do the Muslim moderates not like USA? Clearly USA is doing something wrong.

Is it the USA or the Western lifestyle ( more so North American ) that Moderate Muslims do not like ? That is the question I would like to know ?

 

[Francis2004]

An old Somalia saying - Me aginst my brother, my brother and I against my father, my brother, father and I against his brother. The Clans are the problem -

If as recommended by an aid expert - stay away from the capitial and secure areas outside - a different ending would have been highly possible -
OEC - Somalia (1992)

It was 1992, and the country of Somalia was becoming a full-fledged war zone. The "scorched earth" policies of the warring clans in Somalia caused a famine. When relief workers attempted to bring food in, one of the clans would burn it to prevent it from falling into the hands of their enemies. The U.S. indicated an interest in getting involved and aiding the famine-stricken.Fred Cuny studied the situation and decided the best strategy would be to avoid working in Mogadishu, the capital city. He wanted to create a "zone of tranquillity" away from the capital. Cuny believed that it was best to stay away from the cities because it was too difficult to give aid in such a chaotic setting. However, the U.S. government decided to they would try to solve the problem by landing in Mogadishu and restoring order there. Cuny needed to decide whether or to offer his expertise to the government in carrying out their plan or continue campaigning for his own.For Fred Cuny, it was an easy call. He felt the government's plan was dangerous, so he wrote op-ed articles in many major U.S. newspapers carefully spelling out his plans. But the U.S. government ignored the disaster relief expert and went into Mogadishu anyway. The expedition was a huge failure, with several Americans being killed and the famine still going strong after they left. It was not a happy situation for anyone involved, but once again Cuny demonstrated the depth of his understanding of relief efforts and what is needed to make them effective.

Hindsight be perfect Goober, we would never have any Wars, Recessions or Pandemics.. Part of the problem is someone is always right and always wrong in the World in guessing at the best strategy and someone is always saying " I told you so "..

Problem is choosing the correct person at the start isn't it ?

 

[Goober]

Hindsight be perfect Goober, we would never have any Wars, Recessions or Pandemics.. Part of the problem is someone is always right and always wrong in the World in guessing at the best strategy and someone is always saying " I told you so "..

Problem is choosing the correct person at the start isn't it ?

Myself - That was the road to take - when the militias or what ever you want to call them come out of the city - blast em - Setting up safe zones would have worked better I assume -Yet the world wanted action - but the root of the problem is the Clans - always has been.

I told my wife when we watched the US Marines land under cover of CNN lighting - Gather the Clan with the leader and the next 9 top men from each - take the top 9 - shoot them - tell no 10 he is in charge - she thought that I was crazy - not so crazy after all - they were responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths -

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Is it the USA or the Western lifestyle ( more so North American ) that Moderate Muslims do not like ? That is the question I would like to know ?

My guess is that they just don't like US governments of any stripe. The foreign policy is pretty much non partisan, it doesn't matter which party is in power.

 

[Francis2004]

Myself - That was the road to take - when the militias or what ever you want to call them come out of the city - blast em - Setting up safe zones would have worked better I assume -Yet the world wanted action - but the root of the problem is the Clans - always has been.

I told my wife when we watched the US Marines land under cover of CNN lighting - Gather the Clan with the leader and the next 9 top men from each - take the top 9 - shoot them - tell no 10 he is in charge - she thought that I was crazy - not so crazy after all - they were responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths -

Great suggestion Goober and whether I would agree or not is not the point..

Hindsight be perfect it still does not solve the problem that we cannot avoid the errors we make because we cannot plan the future..

 

[Francis2004]

My guess is that they just don't like US governments of any stripe. The foreign policy is pretty much non partisan, it doesn't matter which party is in power.

Its your guess only..

My question is more on the lines of what is the likelihood that USA or the Western lifestyle ( more so North American ) is what Moderate Muslims do not like ?

Since the USA is more of a target 300 million compared to Canada's 30 million people it would make sense that the USA would be a larger target but we have seen proof that Canada is not immune / invisible as a potential..

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Its your guess only..

My question is more on the lines of what is the likelihood that USA or the Western lifestyle ( more so North American ) is what Moderate Muslims do not like ?

Since the USA is more of a target 300 million compared to Canada's 30 million people it would make sense that the USA would be a larger target but we have seen proof that Canada is not immune / invisible as a potential..

As far as terrorists are concerned, no one is immune, terrorists strike blindly at anybody and everybody. They don't even care fi Muslims die in their terrorist acts.

As to moderates, I don't think lifestyle is the problem here. They probably don't like our lifestyle, much as we don't like theirs. I don't think the differences in lifestyle would account for the deep distrust they feel for USA.

 

[Francis2004]

As far as terrorists are concerned, no one is immune, terrorists strike blindly at anybody and everybody. They don't even care fi Muslims die in their terrorist acts.

As to moderates, I don't think lifestyle is the problem here. They probably don't like our lifestyle, much as we don't like theirs. I don't think the differences in lifestyle would account for the deep distrust they feel for USA.

Terrorist only care for self interests.. That is the extent of their interests and once those are exceeded the safety of anyone has ended including their own.. We all know their end act ( death ) is met at any means including their own lives..

Perhaps the view could be seen from their side as it does matter who is in power as most of those the "West" approves of is usually a puppet dictatorship in their eyes.. This in most cases probably goes against their religion views and irritates the Moderates.. Just my opinion from those I know..

 

[DaSleeper]

Muslims kill more muslims than the U.S. ever could..

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World

 

[Goober]

As far as terrorists are concerned, no one is immune, terrorists strike blindly at anybody and everybody. They don't even care fi Muslims die in their terrorist acts.

As to moderates, I don't think lifestyle is the problem here. They probably don't like our lifestyle, much as we don't like theirs. I don't think the differences in lifestyle would account for the deep distrust they feel for USA.

The Arabs were once leaders in commerce, science, and yes empire building -
around the 12th - 13th century they changed and have been left behind -

The West rose and we are hated for that - along with other things
- The Arabs have shown that they would rather live in a medieval culture where religion is the law - And depending upon whether it is Shia or Sunni is who makes the laws -
The major factions - Shia - Sunni are intensely similar to what the West went thru with the reformation - Catholic- Protestant - They decided to stay behind - They alone are responsible for their own corruption - their own lack of education - poverty - hatred -

The ruling elite play them like country bumpkins -

Now if you happen to be another minority within that state - Say Baha'i or Christian in a Sunni State - where Shia are actively discriminated against - well you are lower than whale shiite at the bottom of the Marianas' Trench.

 

[Francis2004]

Terrorist only care for self interests.. That is the extent of their interests and once those are exceeded the safety of anyone has ended including their own.. We all know their end act ( death ) is met at any means including their own lives..

Perhaps the view could be seen from their side as it does matter who is in power as most of those the "West" approves of is usually a puppet dictatorship in their eyes.. This in most cases probably goes against their religion views and irritates the Moderates.. Just my opinion from those I know..

I'm just curious.. Not questioning anyone..

 

[TenPenny]

Much the same way that nutcase Christian preachers bring up all kinds of weird idiocy, radical nutcase Muslim preachers bring up all kinds of things, going back to the Crusades, to prove that this is just another case of Christians trying to exterminate Islam.

If only moderate heads prevailed, we'd all be better off, but I can't see that happening. Seems like there are always too many people looking for a lunatic to follow.

 

[Goober]

I'm just curious.. Not questioning anyone..

SF2004

And from those I know they hate their govts for many reasons - they are poor -uneducated and have nothing - The elite rule with a hard fist - They also know that whoever is in power will do the same thing - It seems to be ingrained - Blood feuds that last decades or longer - Corruption -

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Terrorist only care for self interests.. That is the extent of their interests and once those are exceeded the safety of anyone has ended including their own.. We all know their end act ( death ) is met at any means including their own lives..

But that is just the point, Francis; they don’t even care for self interest. That is what makes them much more dangerous than the former USSR, in my opinion. A terrorist does not care if he dies, his loved ones die etc. He is interested in killing and that is that.

I remember when we lived in Britain, a terrorist smuggled a bomb on board an airplane. And how did he do that? He smuggled it inside the hand luggage of his pregnant wife (or girlfriend, I don't remember). He did not care if his wife died, if his potential baby died inside her womb. He wanted to destroy the plane, and nothing was going to stop him. As it happened, the bomb was discovered, and he was caught. But his illustrates the mentality of the terrorists.

 

[Goober]

But that is just the point, Francis; they don’t even care for self interest. That is what makes them much more dangerous than the former USSR, in my opinion. A terrorist does not care if he dies, his loved ones die etc. He is interested in killing and that is that.

I remember when we lived in Britain, a terrorist smuggled a bomb on board an airplane. And how did he do that? He smuggled it inside the hand luggage of his pregnant wife (or girlfriend, I don't remember). He did not care if his wife died, if his potential baby died inside her womb. He wanted to destroy the plane, and nothing was going to stop him. As it happened, the bomb was discovered, and he was caught. But his illustrates the mentality of the terrorists.

SJP

Then you should school yourself in how hatred of Jews and others is mainstream in many Arab countries - The Saudi's depend on the Imams who supported Ibn Bin Saud - So we have the Wahabi version of Islam - which is exported to many countries by financing Mosques - Canada included -
Also in the Gaza and West bank where Anti Semitism is taught in the schools - on the TV - it becomes ingrained - Goebbels was indeed correct - A lie to often enough becomes the truth.

Muhammad ibn Saud - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia