Why Catholic isn't Christian.

[Cliffy]

Like I said, there is real evidence once you come back home.

Alley,

Earth is our home. Did not your god create it as such. How can you leave home unless you go off planet? If god created everything, how can he be separate from it all? If in the beginning there was only the word and nothing can be created out of nothing, how can anything not be part of god? How can one separate themselves and then return from something that is everything?

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Ask yourself if you've ever truely sought God without a preconcieved notion that he does not exist?

Yes I have. I grew up in a deeply religious household, and I was promised all kinds of good things in response to belief, but when I seriously could have used some help and guidance, there was no one there. I am apostate. Personally, I think whatever epiphany you had came from the right side of your own brain, not from any external agent, and the proofs you think you see are misunderstandings and misperceptions of what's really going on.

 

[Niflmir]

I'll accept that if accept that even a non-belief is still a belief.

I actually find the consequences of this to be quite amusing.

Let us say that believing my shirt to be blue implies that I believe it is not red. It also implies that I believe it is not gray. Similarly, I must also believe it is not black. Moreover, I must believe my shirt is not mauve. Of course I must believe that my shirt is not silver. In that grain, it must be true that I believe my shirt is not polka dot. Consequently, I should also believe that shirt is not green. Continuing, if follows that I believe my shirt to be not brown. How could I not believe that my shirt is not turquoise?

Ok, I am running out of adverbs and I will never run out of colors. In the end I will just switch to the uncountable infinite possibilities of describing the frequency of the color. In short, I must have an infinite number of beliefs just because I believe my shirt is blue.

I think the point is that some beliefs follow from the beliefs we do have even though they are currently not our beliefs. Consider, for instance my signature. Possessing certain beliefs makes it necessary to believe the truth of that statement. Yet you never had the opportunity of believing its truth until you read it.

 

[EternalSaint]

Yes I have. I grew up in a deeply religious household, and I was promised all kinds of good things in response to belief, but when I seriously could have used some help and guidance, there was no one there.

God was probably testing you, and obvously you failed, if indeed you were ever a christian in the first place. Have you ever read the book of job? He was one of the most righteous men that have ever walked the face of the earth, look what happened to him for a time. I actually look forward to "bad" things happening in my life because I know even though they can be rough to get through, if I perservere in my faith God always shows me something amazing. At times it may seem like God is not there but that is how he can test our resolve for him. Also saying you grew up in a "religious" household means squat. I know a lot of "religious" and/or "spiritual" people that have no concern of what God actually wants/requires of them. This is one of the reasons this whole post was started, catholics for instance, many can be christians but the catholic church itself does NOT follow Jesus in the way Jesus taught.

If the right side of my brain can conjure money, heal the sick and provide many other things deemed impossible by man then I guess God dosen't exist and I need to figure out how to harness that power eh? Funny how it all happens when I pray for it though!(sorry for the sarcasm, but it is silly to think I could do such things myself) I find that the only times my prayers get the answer of "no" from God is when a) there is something between me and God such as unreconciled sin or b) my prayer is not for something in line with the will of God. Please do not take this as boasting for myself, it is in no way my own doing, all of these things come from God almighty.

Here is one thing I can leave you to ponder, if Jesus isn't the way, why is it just the very mention of his name will cause such a stir in people? It is because his name demands a choice and that choice is eternally important. Buddah, odin, shiva, muhammed, zeus etc. all have no power in their names like Jesus does.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

God was probably testing you, and obvously you failed

How nice of him. I wouldn't worship a god who did things like that even if I believed he was real. I'd be more inclined to give him a knee to the crotch, that's certainly what I'd do to a person who caused such a situation. That little test hurt a lot of people very badly in the four months it took to resolve the situation, and one person died. And of course being omniscient god knew before he started that that would be among the seminal events that led me to the atheist position. That means I don't believe in him because of things he did to me and others, knowing fully what the consequences would be. Interesting conundrum. If there's a failure there, it's god's, not mine. He needs a better marketing plan; killing and injuring people's not a good way to sell a product. I guess all the good marketing and advertising people must go to Hell, Heaven's done a very poor job of promoting itself in my life.

The logic of religious belief completely escapes me, I can't perceive it as anything but a delusion. Things make much better sense without it, and in particular it avoids conundrums like that one.

 

[In Between Man]

Like I said, there is real evidence once you come back home.

Alley,

Earth is our home. Did not your god create it as such. How can you leave home unless you go off planet? If god created everything, how can he be separate from it all? If in the beginning there was only the word and nothing can be created out of nothing, how can anything not be part of god? How can one separate themselves and then return from something that is everything?

-Sigh- I'm not saying 'come back home' in a literal sense knucklehead. God wants you to 'come back home' like how the prodigal son did.

Quit running from God and approach him how a child approaches his father.

Our father even made it easier for you, because approaching the all mighty creator like a child can be hard, you can get to know him through our brother and joint-heir Jesus Christ. You'd be more comfortable around a brother right?

 

[In Between Man]

Talloola and Cliffy

I said:

I'll accept that if [you] accept that even a non-belief is still a belief.

Just how I can't prove God exists, you can't prove that he doesn't exist. That's just plain fact. A non-belief is still a belief because you don't own proof of your conclusion, and therefore you have put faith into it. And since we're not talking about who will win next year's Stanley cup but rather the big questions in life, I would have to qualify our own answers to these questions as core beliefs.

It seems that we have found a paradox today, because in a world of varying beliefs, atheism is a non-belief -- that still is a belief.

Cliffy,

You said:

That is as irrational as saying that the proof god exists because I don't believe he does.

I just explained that since no one owns the proof, all our conclusions about the unknown are in fact beliefs, even non-beliefs. They're really beliefs about non-existence. So this quote here doesn't apply to what I was saying, seeing as how I explained myself logically.;-)

Sometimes your logic is just plain illogical.

This coming from a guy who cannot even say he types the truth. THAT'S illogical.
In fact, it so illogical, I laff at how you say I'M illogical. When you can say that something is either true or not, instead of both true and false, you will have taken the first step to waking up and pulling the sheet off your eyes.

A god only exists to those who believe

IF God only exists in the minds of fools, then he DOES NOT EXIST AT ALL. PERIOD! And that non-existence effects everyone because he's not really there and can't hear them or judge them. So, he would not exist for anyone, in any culture, at anytime. Am I right???????????????

 

[In Between Man]

How nice of him. I wouldn't worship a god who did things like that...

Just for the record Dex, my perspective is that God may not have been testing you. When you asked God for guidance and got nowhere it could have several reasons. You should re-examine everything. Were your eyes already set on apostasy while seeking guidance? It sounded like this time was urgent, did you seek God's guidance with ALL your heart and a loving attitude? Did you hear his guidance but choose to ignore it. Did his advice fit what you were expecting?

Praying is not just for believers. Prayer can be for anyone who's willing to put their own pride to the side for one moment and ask "God, IF you exist - help me. Give me guidance. Speak to me. Show me your there. Deliver me from this situation." Etc. Actually, that's probably how most people find God.

 

[EternalSaint]

You do realize that everyone dies right? Just because God exists does not mean that the world is going to be all sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. That comes after we pass from this world(for some). "I wouldn't worship a god who did things like that... " You know what, you don't have to, atleast with this statement you're being honest, Satan and 1/3rd of the angels chose this stance aswell, and that is up to you, although I would not say it is a wise choice.

"If there's a failure there, it's god's, not mine" Did you put the stars in the sky or make the air we breathe? Who are you that you think you diserve Gods mercy when not only are you not seeking it, you're in direct confrontation with the Lord. None of us diserve redemption but God has provided for those who will accept it, and it cost him greatly for providing said redemption. The Lord can still take away that pain and anger you feel towards that event that broke you so, but it requires some humility and I will pray that the Lord will do a work in your heart so that you can see the truth.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

...this time was urgent, did you seek God's guidance with ALL your heart and a loving attitude? Did you hear his guidance but choose to ignore it. Did his advice fit what you were expecting?

Damn right it was urgent, and according to everything I'd been told by parents and pastors and friends, and according to everything I understood about these matters at the time, I did everything it's humanly possible to do. I heard and received absolutely nothing, there was no answer, no comfort, no help, no explanation, nothing. The situation was ultimately resolved in what I thought, and still think, was the worst, most painful possible way for everybody involved, the lingering death of a fine young man of great promise. He was a cousin, only 19 years old... :-(

It was over 30 years ago, but the scar still throbs. I loved that kid, he was like a son, though he was only 10 years younger than I was. If there's a god who engineered that situation, he should be asking *me* for forgiveness.

 

[Cliffy]

Alley,

Your logic is flawed because you make false assumptions about what I believe and don't believe. You make assumptions about everything based on your belief system. But like i said, just because i don't believe in the bible or your god, does not make me an atheist. Just because I know your god only exists in your imagination, does not negate your belief nor will it change it any more that what you think of me will change me.

You see, I sought the truth like so many have, and as promised, it was revealed to me in a manner that I could comprehend. This has been true for all who have honestly sought the truth, no matter when or where on this planet or in history they lived. But if you lived on grubs in the desert of Australia, what you can comprehend is quite different from a house wife in suburbia. So to me the Aborigine's Dreamtime is just as valid as the christian, muslim, buddist and atheist view. I do not believe in any of them but I do accept that it is possible that they have a truth that is comprehendable to them.

What I know to be true I have gleaned from my personal experiences with the divine aspect of all things. I have been in cerimony, prayer gatherings, healing sweats, with native peoples, with christian, mormans, spiritualists, wiccans and many others. All use the same power to heal as the others. Just because you believe something does not necessarily make it true for everybody. If you were as loving and as non judgmental as you would like to believe you are, you would believe that you god speaks to everyone in a way they can understand, personally and without religion, religious books or dogma.

It is the arrogance of those who think they know god's will, who think they have the only truth, the only way that turns so many off to your god. Your arrogance blinds you to the fact that everybody has the truth. Just because they don't express it the way you do does not make it any less valid than yours, any less valid than you. Until you understand that all people of this Earth are your brothers and sisters, no matter what they do or don't believe, that they are all as equally loved, have an equal chance at salvation and are going to live and die no better or worse than you, then yu may begin to grow up. Believing you are right and anybody is wrong is arrogance on a scale equal only to that of your war god of the desert: Yehwa, Jehovah, Allah, Jesus and the Holy Spook.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Did you put the stars in the sky or make the air we breathe?

No. Neither did god. There are perfectly satisfactory natural explanations for that.

Who are you that you think you diserve Gods mercy when not only are you not seeking it, you're in direct confrontation with the Lord.

I do not ask for god's mercy any more. I sought it once in a time of great need, but not for myself, and there was no response. If he exists, which I no longer believe, he's a heartless bastard, I have nothing but contempt for the way he runs things, and if I ever meet him I'll tell him so.

Epicurus figured it out millennia ago. He wrote this: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" More to the point, why even think he exists?

 

[EternalSaint]

What if your cousin is sitting in heaven right now waiting for you? If you look at things through a worldly scope they can look a lot worse than they actually are. This life is but a blink of an eye in compared to eternity and if you're spiritually minded things like this are still hard but are much easier to deal with.

"If there's a god who engineered that situation, he should be asking *me* for forgiveness." God knew what would be in the future when this happened, you probably recieved no answer and no help because he knew you had a hard and prideful heart. I would say that the reason the majority of people in hell will get there is because of pride.

Anyway I think that this is getting to the point where you've recieved all the things you're going to in regards to this conversation, if you choose to use any of it to your benifit that is up to you and I really hope you do. God will forgive you should you ask, and if you don't well don't complain when you end up where you do, you have no excuse, you've been shown the way.

 

[Cliffy]

God knew what would be in the future when this happened, you probably recieved no answer and no help because he knew you had a hard and prideful heart. I would say that the reason the majority of people in hell will get there is because of pride.

And you forgot the arrogant and self righteous. And anyone who thinks they are an EternalSaint is a prime candidate.

 

[EternalSaint]

I am not self righteous, I am cleansed by the blood of Jesus. There is nothing self about it, it was done by God and all the glory is to Him! All who repent and accept Jesus are made clean by him and as such become saints before God. He has paid the penalty for mine and your sins should you chose. I am an eternal saint not because I say so but because God says so.

1Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

 

[EternalSaint]

I just want to point out to you that the church of Corinth were some of the worst of the time for following what Jesus taught yet they are still called saints because they are sanctified by the blood of Christ.

 

[Cliffy]

I am not self righteous, I am cleansed by the blood of Jesus. There is nothing self about it, it was done by God and all the glory is to Him! All who repent and accept Jesus are made clean by him and as such become saints before God. He has paid the penalty for mine and your sins should you chose. I am an eternal saint not because I say so but because God says so.

1Corinthians 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Sanctimonious too.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

God knew what would be in the future when this happened, you probably recieved no answer and no help because he knew you had a hard and prideful heart.

So apparently he set that all up just to torture me and about a dozen other people, make a major contribution to destroying my belief entirely, and thus condemn me to Hell for eternity, and he knew from the beginning what the consequences would be. Nice guy.

I don't believe a word you've posted, you've bought this mystic nonsense entirely and can rationalize anything with it in a way that lets god off the hook for everything he does, because you don't really think clearly about any of it. And as Cliffy pointed out, anybody who calls himself Eternal Saint has some other issues too. You're not saved, you're deluded. I'm not usually so harsh with people like you, but your arrogant self righteous sanctimonious certainty earns nothing but scorn from me.

 

[YukonJack]

All Christian 'religions' - with the exception of Mormons - are nothing but malcontent, dissatisfied, false and empty, no value Catholics.

 

[EagleSmack]

It was over 30 years ago, but the scar still throbs. I loved that kid, he was like a son, though he was only 10 years younger than I was. If there's a god who engineered that situation, he should be asking *me* for forgiveness.

Dex... I would never judge you or preach to you because believe me I am no Saint.

I do not believe God engineers anything bad. Things just happen that are awful and unfortunately it is the sad part of living. I do not believe everything is planned out for us for then we would be guilty of nothing. We make our own decisions, right or wrong; and things happen to us, good or bad.

It is painful to hear some say "How can God do this?" or "How can God let that happen?". I do not judge those words or them but it is painful. I also know they are going through pain. Such wonderful people are taken from us for whatever reason, accidents, illness, age, etc. It is just part of life. One day we will leave this earth the same way.