Do you really think you have earned the right? I see no evidence that you have. You just have a blind belief that the door exists. You have not paid your dues.
Why Catholic isn't Christian.
- Thread starter Graeme
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Do you really think you have earned the right? I see no evidence that you have. You just have a blind belief that the door exists. You have not paid your dues.
It's a wide open door. yet you claim that the fact that Catholics think good works matter too makes them not Christians. That IS judging. That is picking apart semantics in the worst way.
Allow me to clarify a little. Like most people, "religious" or not, how one conducts himself is important. Should one live their life in a honorable way? Most certainly, but what some Catholics tend to do is fall prey to this flawed idea that goods acts are what reconcile you with God. That if you live a basically good moral life you get eternal life in heaven with God. ... But that's not what God said...
So, to deny Christ's death, to say that it wasn't sufficient enough for you and me to be made right with God is a very insult to the entire faith. It's an insult to God and Jesus; and, I have a moral obligation to stand up for what I know to be true. Who else here represents the Evangelical perspective?
Earn the right! Paid dues!
First of all, I don't have to pay any dues! The blood of Jesus Christ is a FREE GIFT from God, you don't earn it. From there, we're commanded to spread the good news, that all people, regardless of their past are welcome to the free gift.
Everywhere Jesus went he told people that he healed to tell others what God had did for them. He told to disciples that he would make them "fishers of people", and to "make disciples in all nations".
Is there a problem?
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Yes there is. You think you're right beyond all possibility of contradiction or falsification, with no test in reality.
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BrotherinChrist I am directing this post your way because you seem to want to follow the Lord but just need a push in the right direction. What was stated about the catholic church is indeed sound, however it may not have been put across in a way reflecting the love of our saviour Jesus. I was raised catholic myself, went to catholic school my whole young life and personally it lead me into conflict with God because of a lot of the things mentioned above which are in direct contradiction to what the bible actually says.
I agree with you that loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbour as yourself are what is most important! However if you are not doing your best to find out the will of God and following it to the best of your ability along with his help you're off the mark.
The catholic church teaches that along with the death of Christ you need to be a "good" person to get to heaven, while it is true that if you're following Christ you will end up doing good works that is not what is getting you into heaven. Can catholics get into heaven? My grandmother was catholic and I am quite certain that she is with the Lord, now how is that possible if I think the catholic church is wrong in many things and corrupt? She loved Jesus with all her heart and soul, and you could tell the holy spirit guided her. There are many in the catholic church that are christians, but they are missing out on a lot of spiritual things because of it, and they are also being mislead causing many of them to lead a less Godly lifestyle. 99% of catholics I know, and I know a lot, remember I was raised catholic have never read the bible more than just in passing.
Many christians lump others in as non-christians because they are not doing everything according to their viewpoint of the bible. I myself did this exact same thing in the past, and I am glad God showed me the error of that thinking. I can however tell you the one qualifying thing for being a christian and that is this:
Jesus is the only way to Heaven. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God(Romans 3:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 6:23) You must repent and accept that he has died and confess him as Lord. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem(Luke 24:47) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (Romans 10:9) Confessing him as Lord does NOT mean just saying it, (Luke 6:46 Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? ) it means surrendering your life to him. Are you going to sin again? I would say definately, but that does not mean you can live a life of sin and be ok. If you are I would question your acceptance of Jesus in the first place, but only the Lord will judge.
So in conclusion to you, ask yourself friend, am I letting Jesus be my Lord and am I living for him or am I taking what I like from what he taught and ignoring the rest to do things my way?
As for everyone else, if you are reading this and are not a christian ask yourself firstly, why are you here reading this? You may think that it is amusing to argue with the "blind sheep" or that christians are less intelligent somehow and like to boost your view of your own intellectual prowess(though you'd probably never admit it) it may infact be Gods way of calling you. If you think there is no God, how about praying about it, if you are sincere in wanting to know the truth God will reveal himself to you, that does not mean if you say if you are there God turn off my lights he will, he will do it in his own way on his own time. If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. (John 7:17) God loves you and wants you to come to him but he is not going to force you, and this is exactly how with a loving God people can still end up suffering eternity apart from him.
All glory to God and may he rain his love upon you!
If you have any questions for me I will be happy to answer them, however I will not be responding to any argumentitive posts as I am here to spread the word of the Lord, not to win your approval.
BrotherinChrist I am directing this post your way because you seem to want to follow the Lord but just need a push in the right direction. What was stated about the catholic church is indeed sound, however it may not have been put across in a way reflecting the love of our saviour Jesus. I was raised catholic myself, went to catholic school my whole young life and personally it lead me into conflict with God because of a lot of the things mentioned above which are in direct contradiction to what the bible actually says.
I agree with you that loving God with all your heart and loving your neighbour as yourself are what is most important! However if you are not doing your best to find out the will of God and following it to the best of your ability along with his help you're off the mark.
The catholic church teaches that along with the death of Christ you need to be a "good" person to get to heaven, while it is true that if you're following Christ you will end up doing good works that is not what is getting you into heaven. Can catholics get into heaven? My grandmother was catholic and I am quite certain that she is with the Lord, now how is that possible if I think the catholic church is wrong in many things and corrupt? She loved Jesus with all her heart and soul, and you could tell the holy spirit guided her. There are many in the catholic church that are christians, but they are missing out on a lot of spiritual things because of it, and they are also being mislead causing many of them to lead a less Godly lifestyle. 99% of catholics I know, and I know a lot, remember I was raised catholic have never read the bible more than just in passing.
Many christians lump others in as non-christians because they are not doing everything according to their viewpoint of the bible. I myself did this exact same thing in the past, and I am glad God showed me the error of that thinking. I can however tell you the one qualifying thing for being a christian and that is this:
Jesus is the only way to Heaven. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God(Romans 3:23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.(Romans 6:23) You must repent and accept that he has died and confess him as Lord. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem(Luke 24:47) that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (Romans 10:9) Confessing him as Lord does NOT mean just saying it, (Luke 6:46 Why do you call me, `Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? ) it means surrendering your life to him. Are you going to sin again? I would say definately, but that does not mean you can live a life of sin and be ok. If you are I would question your acceptance of Jesus in the first place, but only the Lord will judge.
So in conclusion to you, ask yourself friend, am I letting Jesus be my Lord and am I living for him or am I taking what I like from what he taught and ignoring the rest to do things my way?
As for everyone else, if you are reading this and are not a christian ask yourself firstly, why are you here reading this? You may think that it is amusing to argue with the "blind sheep" or that christians are less intelligent somehow and like to boost your view of your own intellectual prowess(though you'd probably never admit it) it may infact be Gods way of calling you. If you think there is no God, how about praying about it, if you are sincere in wanting to know the truth God will reveal himself to you, that does not mean if you say if you are there God turn off my lights he will, he will do it in his own way on his own time. If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. (John 7:17) God loves you and wants you to come to him but he is not going to force you, and this is exactly how with a loving God people can still end up suffering eternity apart from him.
All glory to God and may he rain his love upon you!
If you have any questions for me I will be happy to answer them, however I will not be responding to any argumentitive posts as I am here to spread the word of the Lord, not to win your approval.
And how exactly is that a problem? Seems to me that anyone willing to post an opinion on a forum, especially a core belief like atheism or Christianity, you would certainly believe you are right.
Yet as I'm sure you remember, I've already admitted that there could be no God. What's funny is that when I first joined this forum I wanted to not come across forceful with my beliefs. And then I seen how forceful and convicted everyone else is at stating their beliefs.
So, I have no choice, even though I could be wrong I will argue what I believe to be true. Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, the life.
What I knew was going to happen did. Most would argue that there is no way(no wide open door or even a path), that there is no truth(truth is relative),and even there is no life(we don't exist).
Everyone knows that the latter is absurd. Obviously we exist. "I think, therefore I am."
The smart ones like Dex and I know that notion of truth not existing is upside down backwards thinking. If God does NOT exist, that is a truth for all people, in all cultures, in all of history. Dexter Sinister woke up today. This is true for all people, in all cultures. Whether they are ignorant of it or not, or whether they have intellectual obstacles for believing so -- it's still true.
As for the path or door. The idea of a path is your red flag for religion. How can a fallible human following a path to a perfect God? Would God really want only a handful of people to spend eternity with him?
If God exists, if he is perfect and loving, would he not make salvation a easily accessible door? Countless believers have walked thru it. Doesn't matter if your 65 or 25, rich or poor.
I was surprised that you guys said you have a problem with my beliefs being in black and white. Keep it to myself as George Carlin and Dex suggested?! Do you guys keep it yourselves when I talk about Jesus? No, you stand up for what you believe in, right? So I'd like to ask another question please:
If I were to renounce my beliefs, say and believe that there is no God, would I really have your respect? Even more so, since Christianity offers you so much, what can atheism offer me that's more than what I have with trust in Jesus?
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Thank you for your advice EternalSaint. I have no doubt that the vast majority of Catholics are saved. However, nowadays the Catholic church is not attacting the lost. People can't get past walking into a biulding that they think is going to be depressing and unspirit-filled inside. They need to see the church out in the open so that they can see the fruit and want it for themselves.
Your brother in Jesus,
Alley
It's a problem because history makes it perfectly clear that people who believe they're absolutely right, with a deity on their side and no test in reality, routinely do horrible things to people who don't agree with them if they have the power to do so. I don't believe *you* would, I perceive you as a kind and gentle and forgiving soul willing to live and let live, but you're part of a tiny minority in that regard.
Yes, I remember that clearly, and it deeply impressed me. You are the ONLY believer I've ever encountered who's admitted that, so at some level you do *not* believe you're absolutely right, though you usually present your arguments as if you do.
(Two BIG ifs) Yes he would, but (assuming he exists at all) that's exactly what he doesn't do, he hides the evidence of his reality, requires belief in the absence of good evidence and, according to some, condemns those who insist on evidence and refuse to believe without it.
Not quite. It'd be more correct to say I stand up for what I don't believe, though that doesn't really cover it either. I am a skeptic, which simply means I take a provisional approach to any claim, I insist on evidence in support of it, I have certain standards by which I judge the quality of evidence offered, and if it doesn't pass the tests I reject the claim. I've got a post here somewhere in my 4500 messages about the details of those tests. I may well be wrong, and I've changed my mind about a lot of things in the last decade or so as my understanding has expanded (at least I hope it has), but on the key question about the existence of a deity, my view hasn't wavered for about 30 years because no evidence I've ever seen for the claim that there is such a being passes the tests: there's no such being.
You already have my respect, changing your mind wouldn't change that. Well... actually it might increase it; apostasy is a very difficult thing to do. But I'd be hugely surprised. :smile:
Yes, Christianity promises a great deal, but you don't really find out if it can deliver until you die. You cannot really know in this life whether or not your belief and trust were misplaced, and that strikes me as a poor bargain. Judging or choosing a belief based on what it offers seems to me precisely backwards to what makes sense. First you have to figure out how likely it is to be true. I don't believe what I believe for the comfort it offers, I believe what I believe because the weight of evidence I know about supports it.
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Is there an atheist church somewhere?
The religious can only think in terms of religion. "No religion" is a foreign concept. Although I am not an atheist, I loath religion and have no use for the bible or its god. So the religious can only conceive that I must be atheist. No amount of saying I am not seems to deter them. Once the blinders are on and the mind locked away, concepts outside their realm of vision become impossible to assimilate.
The religious can only think in terms of religion. "No religion" is a foreign concept. Although I am not an atheist, I loath religion and have no use for the bible or its god. So the religious can only conceive that I must be atheist. No amount of saying I am not seems to deter them. Once the blinders are on and the mind locked away, concepts outside their realm of vision become impossible to assimilate.
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John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
God offers proof but not in the way most athiest/agnostics want. I know God exists because he has proven himself to me, there is no blindness or guessing involved. Until you experience it for yourself I can see how it is very hard to believe, I have only been a christian for 1.5 years and I was probably the last person anyone ever thought would become a christian, but when God shows himself to you he does it in an undenable way and he proves himself to me regularly. When I did first become a christian my wife was very sceptical, but when she saw how God was working in my life she decided to look into things for herself and was saved a while after.
Ask yourself if you've ever truely sought God without a preconcieved notion that he does not exist? He is there friend and when you recieve the Holy Spirit you will gain all kinds of wisdom and wonder how such simple things were not apparant to you before. If you want to know more about God's proof from scripture you can check out this site. Truth Or Tradition - God will prove Himself. If you diligently seek God, you will find Him. Deut. 4:2
John 14:21
Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.
God offers proof but not in the way most athiest/agnostics want. I know God exists because he has proven himself to me, there is no blindness or guessing involved. Until you experience it for yourself I can see how it is very hard to believe, I have only been a christian for 1.5 years and I was probably the last person anyone ever thought would become a christian, but when God shows himself to you he does it in an undenable way and he proves himself to me regularly. When I did first become a christian my wife was very sceptical, but when she saw how God was working in my life she decided to look into things for herself and was saved a while after.
Ask yourself if you've ever truely sought God without a preconcieved notion that he does not exist? He is there friend and when you recieve the Holy Spirit you will gain all kinds of wisdom and wonder how such simple things were not apparant to you before. If you want to know more about God's proof from scripture you can check out this site. Truth Or Tradition - God will prove Himself. If you diligently seek God, you will find Him. Deut. 4:2
Yes, the believers insist on drawing us non believers under the same roof as
them, as though we are just another section of their many religions.
There is nothing to say after saying "I don't believe in any god", that's it.
End of story.
If there is a big organization that delves deeply into the 'non belief', as though
they have to prove something, then I move away, because I'm not interested in
going there, I have other things to do.
As fallible humans, many groups of people organized based on either core beliefs like Christianity or organized by some other identity, have gone mad with bloodlust. Christians had the crusades, tutsis killed the hutu in Rwanda, and muslims currently are attacking western targets. I don't see the connection between the actions of religious idiots and what the religion/faith teaches, esp. considering all humans are fallible like I mentioned. One heartless knucklehead I know is an atheist. Should I count his beliefs as false because of the way he acts?
Thankyou, I'm glad I could make an impression. Part of being a Christian is dealing with what people think that is, as I'm sure Christians have misconceptions about non-believers(I know I have). Thanx for also noticing that I try to "bring it" to the debate table. ;-)
And that's one of many reasons why Christianity is far superior to any belief system that claims a path to salvation, enlightenment, or nirvana.
If you want real evidence challenge God to enter your life. God will provide you with all the convincing evidence you can handle, BUT, he wants you to turn around and be the prodigal son first. All it takes is that itty-bitty tiny piece of you that says "maybe". He wants you to look past the natural world and to look at what's in your heart.
Most people who ask or challenge God into their lives have no idea what to expect. Once you remember that intellectual obstacles doesn't mean something isn't true, the tiny bit of "maybe" will allow you to ask God to enter your heart. Once he does it truly is amazing. Your very real evidence will be(but not contained to): a warming of your heart(your spirit), your realization of his wonderful gifts, finding yourself in victory over any circumstance, new understanding and wisdom, the Holy Spirit comforting you and giving you the right words to say, among other things. These are all spiritual experiences, some more profound than others.
As we all should. If someone at work tells me that they've discovered a new planet, I would have to see some real substance than just hearsay. If I turn on the news and Nasa is telling the world about the discovery I'm much more likely to believe it. More than likely, I would be eager to further read up any articles so that I understand the discovery all the more better.
If someone tells me that the bible claims the prophet Elijah reincarnated into John the Baptist, well frankly I'd be very skeptical. I would have to investigate the alleged scriptures, read the amplified notes, look for different interpretations, and maybe even ask God himself what it all means.
Thankyou, as you have mine. It's really quite fun and enjoyable to debate with someone who is as smart as you.
Like I said, there is real evidence once you come back home.
Not quite. You can know because God assures you of your salvation. He doesn't do that for the muslims. They don't even believe in a salvation, just a flawed man-made religious path to Allah.
Ditto.
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I'll accept that if accept that even a non-belief is still a belief.
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Guess we're really splitting hairs now, as I can't grasp that concept. Is there
an actual explanation somewhere that would confirm what you say.
How can something that is 'non' be anything.;-)
As soon as someone says 'they' believe in anything, and the rest of society
doesn't buy it, and continues on their normal path as previous, why would
they have to be part of that belief.
Why does someone who 'doesn't believe' in something have to be dragged
along, with the believers, when they have nothing to do with that idea.
There was 'no' idea for them, they were just going about their business as
usual each day, then all of a sudden, some 'others' are parading around
spouting off about 'what they believe'. It has nothing to do with the group
who are not involved, and 'now' they are called 'non believers', as though
they are also caught up in the frenzy.
When non believers are preached to by believers, they have to answer and
defend themselves, they can't just stand around 'mute', but that still doesn't
make themselves part of the belief. They are, as they always were, and hadn't
thought about such things, one way or the other, didn't even know their
was a non belief, until those who preached about a god began their preaching.
Confusing for sure.
Maybe the answer is knowing 'who came first' thousands of years ago, the
believers or those who did not think of any such thing, or maybe none of
them thought very deeply at all, and lived most of their lives in fear of what
they didn't know, and the powers of how the earth 'behaves' ruled over them,
and their imaginations created 'gods'. The imagination was more powerful
than intelligent reason, which they had to 'learn' over time.
That is as irrational as saying that the proof god exists because I don't believe he does. Sometimes your logic is just plain illogical. There are no absolute truths outside of your mind or the minds of those who agree with you. Just because you can spout something that I agree with does not make it absolute. But that is the MO of those who believe: they twist everything to fit their beliefs even if they are completely unfounded, illogical or irrational. A god only exists to those who believe and Satan is alive and doing well in christianity (and in the Muslim world as well, apparently.)