Who's right to choose, a womans right to choose.

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
2,432
8
38
First let me say I agree with LRG set of "rules". I had three children and not one of the fathers paid child support. Those children were MY creation and MY responcability but thats just my opinion.

Let me tell you a little story about a beautiful man I met a few months ago. I was at the local Pub and I was reading my book. He was curious and we talked. He had just came home from south carolina where his best friend of 7 years had just had an abortion (his baby) that had gone bad. He stayed with her, held her hand. They had talked about the pregnancy and his stand point was that is was her body and her choice BUT he would not be sad if she had the child. The conversation was getting heavy for a pub so we went back to my place and continued the story. He left the choice up to her. She decided to abort. He went home just to be called back because she ended up in the hospital. When he got there she was distraught, she sent him away telling him never call again. The man looked up from his wringing hands with tears rolling down his cheeks. He said to me, he wanted that child, he was willing to raise him alone if he had too, but it was her choice not his. I put in Hook and we sat in silence watching the movie. Two morning parents wishing we had never grown up.

And then there's the flip side of the coin ... the men that murder their pregnant partners because they they don't want to have the responsibility of a child.

I have no doubt this man will grieve until the end of his days, just like many women that have abortions because they are not in a stable relationship, can't see how to raise a child alone, can't bear to give the child away, can't imagine giving a child to a man that abandoned her, can't see a win-win situation.
 
Last edited:

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
4,276
42
48
62
Richmond, Virginia
And then there's the flip side of the coin ... the men that murder their pregnant partners because they they don't want to have the responsibility of a child.

I have no doubt this man will grieve until the end of his days, just like many women that have abortions because they are not in a stable relationship, can't see how to raise a child alone, can't bear to give the child away, can't imagine giving a child to a man that abandoned her, can't see a win-win situation.

Sweetheart I know that pain, they were 9 miscarrages and til this day I grieve. 3 were due to rapes and I figured it was prolly best. Dont get me wrong I believe like LRG and others have said... a womans body is her own. It is TOTALLY her choice from get go til birth. BUT at birth? I think men get the raw end of the deal.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
The diversity of lifestyles here is wonderful to read and so are all the opinions.

It was great to see men weighing in - because they also have their own stories to share about fathering children - wanting children - and thanks everyone for having the guts to talk here. I live in terror about the popular emasculation of males in our society these days and I see people every day who suffer from the lack of a dominant male figure in their formative years - both men and women....missing something.

Again I go back to the contract... if the reality of conception is put into words on paper somehow it lights up the night with what the possible outcomes are of having sexual activity....Somehow I wish men and women could discuss these things ahead of time in friendship and maturity regardless of age - so the future is a known factor for them in case.

That however does not take into consideration the point that Selfactivated brought up about rape or even unplanned "gambling" sex without protection. I personally was battered and lost a child at a very
late stage of my pregnancy in a violent marriage when I was very young. Things happen and not all
conceptions are wanted or completed, but we cannot let one incident rule our lives from that point on.
And thank goodness they are in the minority at least if we are careful to pick our partners.

It is an argument as old as mankind but women are now given the benefit of choice as well. I wish women would consider insisting on prior self-protection and protection practiced by the male as well. If there is none - don't have sex. When you think of the possibility of creating life - it seems a no brainer...

Some day maybe reliable reversible tubal ligation will be a reality (I dream).... and until then women with their new found choices can choose the path they wish to follow. So we don't become fertile until we are ready...and choose it.

A couple I know extremely well were married in their early 20s, fought a great deal, were career-bound and tied - and finally separated/divorced - one reason being there were no children to consider so they went their separate ways.

He had a vasectomy - she had her tubes tied. They thought children were not in their futures - even separated and divorced from each other or with anyone else.

Five years later on the fast "dating circuit" they relived what they should have been doing in their early 20s - meeting lots of possible life partners, having a great time, and being single free from the possibility of having any children.

They met again, started dating again, and remarried when they were in their early 30s. All grown up I guess. They never found mates who were better suited than their original partner. Now they wanted children desperately.

They both had their reproduction restored (hopefully) and set about trying for a family. They may have had some fertility assistance - I do not know so can't write it as fact. Whatever they did - it worked! Their twins are now five - beautiful kids and so very "wanted" - mom is pregnant again with a single - and life is good. I also have permission to relate their story in appropriate settings as I wish.

Why this story? I have no idea except I think we all have to reach that point where a child will complete our lives as a couple, and hopefully as a single, but ultimately until that child has reached the age of majority - we are totally responsible and that responsiblity has to start with the first kiss.

Best wishes all of you in your decisions.... having children....taking on huge responsibilities, fighting for your rights... being good moms and dads....and for those who opt out .... be warned ... even that can change but that you are no less a participant in our life here....for there are many people who can use your talents and your caring...and it doesn't necessarily have to be a child of your own.

Good discussion peeps...and thanks for sharing it.
 
Last edited:

Ariadne

Council Member
Aug 7, 2006
2,432
8
38
Sweetheart I know that pain, they were 9 miscarrages and til this day I grieve. 3 were due to rapes and I figured it was prolly best. Dont get me wrong I believe like LRG and others have said... a womans body is her own. It is TOTALLY her choice from get go til birth. BUT at birth? I think men get the raw end of the deal.

Childbirth is something that is celebrated around the world in every culture and religion. If some men are so immature that they think they can have casual sex without consequences, only to complain about the responsibilities when they arrive, then those men should be voluntarily sterilized.

We teach our children that with independence, comes responsibility. Every teenager has to learn it. They can borrow the car, but they have to stay sober and return at a certain time. Teenagers that are not prepared to take on the responsibility lose the independence. Men that are in this "teenage stage of emotional development" of wanting it all but without responsibility are not men. They are emotionally stunted teenagers in men's bodies. They want sex but none of the responsibilities that come with it, never considering the responsibilities the woman must take on the minute she discovers she is pregnant. Men don't get a free ride when it comes to sex and complaining that they don't have the same control over procreation that they had in the 50's makes them seem worse than rednecks with a grade 3 education.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Ariadne

Those were pretty generalized statements condemning all males to this child role you paint. I hope you know there are some very responsible young men out there who would love to find a girl to marry and start a family with.

Let's not put all men into one category ... and your contributions to this thread are wonderful.... I am only surprised you wrote that last one in such sweeping condemnation....
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
4,276
42
48
62
Richmond, Virginia
Theres a great deal of anger in your words. Life isnt a clean cut slice, its messy and we all muddle through. My 22 year old son that I just lost in may died with very little sexual experience. Why? Because I taught him better thats why. But I also taught my 21 year old daughter AND my 18 year old daughter the same values. Im a Nana by the 21 year old, she doesnt have the child the other grandmother has him. The fathers in jail and my daughter is borderline personality (in my opinion my sweet baby is in the best place) My 18 year old has signed some church thing about chastity and is on her way of being a minister! Iy yi yi! I sat the older two down when Critter (my son) turned 16 and bought a box of condoms. I showed them how they work and informed them 2 are better than one. I showed them a site on std's and we went over it together. There was the usual "Aw Mom!" "Yuck" BUT they got the lesson. If we want to get right down to the brass tacks of this we better look to ourselves as mothers...........are we teaching our sons to BE responsible???
 

Nikki

Free Thinker
Jul 6, 2006
326
2
18
calgary,ab
www.avonbynikki.com
All I'm saying is that the discussion should happen before sex, not after. People can go ahead and have sport sex all they want, but it's not that much to ask of people that they make the decision before they get into the situation. The horse goes before the cart, not the other way around. People that want to put the cart before the horse are asking for trouble and shouldn't be surprised when they don't get their way - especially men when it comes to pregnancy.

I agree with you and I said that in a previous post. But the problem with that is that some people change their minds especially women.
 

LittleRunningGag

Electoral Member
Jan 11, 2006
611
2
18
Calgary, Alberta
members.shaw.ca
You don't get it and I fully understand why.

What you really mean is that you are basing your opinion entirely on emotion and have no real arguements. As such you are resorting to high and mighty (empty) phrases that mean nothing. You know you can't win this arguement so you have to try to look superior and talk down to people. Unfortunately everyone else can see your comments for what they are.
 

Outta here

Senate Member
Jul 8, 2005
6,778
158
63
Edmonton AB
There's alot of things in life that aren't fair. Men's 'rights' regarding pregnancy may not be fair, but given how our biology works, it's impossible to fairly place the burden on both partners shoulders. It is the woman who is pregnant, not the man. Period.

Nothing can be done about this, so debating about whether or not it's fair hardly seems realistic. Personally, I think the man should be given the opportunity to participate... fully - even if the couple doesn't stay together. They 'should' be able to have some say in the matter, but IMO, only if it's in a situation where it's a preplanned pregnancy - where both partners are in pre-agreement about bringing a new life into this world. This is a lifetime committment we're talking about here - but unfortunatley, there are men out there who think they can take this committment out for a test drive before they buy in completely. Like it or not, women don't have that option. Once they're in, there's no out.

If one or both parties were irresponsible in the conception of a child, then the reality is that it's going to be the woman's burden. Right from the get go, the man's involvement is pretty well optional. That's where the reality just doesn't come close to how it 'should' be... and every decision made from the point of conception is made based on that fact. Is that how it should be? Hardly, but it is the reality. Men can and do opt out... sometimes right from the get go, sometimes later... but it happens. IMO, it would be foolish of any woman NOT to consider this when deciding whether or not to keep the baby, and whether or not to involve the man in an unplanned sitation. It's a minisucle minority of situations where men are forced to consider that possibility in making the decision to be a parent or not.

Reality cuts both ways. I have two children - a boy and a girl. I've talked to both about responsible decision making when it comes to sex. I've educated them both regarding what could happen vs what should happen. As a man, my son could face the possibility of having a child he gets little or no access to, even if he desperately wants to be an active and involved parent. Or he could wind up paying for the rest of his life for a child he didn't want. Either way, unless he participated in the decision to have that child before it was conceived, he faces lifelong consequences. For my daughter, she faces the possiblity of raising a child alone, or spending a tremendous amount of time and energy waging legal battles to get financial help to raise a child. And for both my children, I advise them that their children WILL hold them accountable for these decisions at some point. And let's not forget that co-creating a life together WILL create a lifelong tie to the other parent... whether they stay together or not. THESE are the realities that have to be thought of when making decisions regarding pregnancy.

"Shoulds" are lovely. They mean next to nothing when dealing with reality. Until men are able to accept the full burden of prenancy and parenting - alone - as women often have to, they 'should' probably try to find a woman who WANTS to co-parent with them before insisting on what 'should' happen. Waiting for an unplanned pregnancy to start arguing about rights and shoulds is just not realistic... and ultimately, it's the child who loses while the parents cluster f*ck their way through what rights they 'should' have. The trail of heartache they leave behind them while they muddle their way through that cannot be measured in words.

We have the right to abstain. We have the right to plan our pregnancies with willing and committed partners. Beyond that, it SHOULD be about the child's right to have two responsible, committed and nurturing parents who are fully involved in their care and upbringing. Ahhh... there I go again.... confusing reality with how it 'should' be....
 

Sassylassie

House Member
Jan 31, 2006
2,976
7
38
Good post self. I was raised Catholic so I could never have an abortion, I can't explain why I just couldn't. However I worked with a young lass of 19 and she came to me and asked if I would take her to the hospital she had booked an abortion and she also asked if I'd let her crash at my house for the day because she didn't want her mother to know. I said okay, when I drove her home that night as she was exiting the car I asked her to consider telling her mom so she could have some emotional support and she responded "Oh no I can't she told me if I got pregnant again she'd make me have it". My mouth dropped open and I said excuse me you've had an abortion before she said "Yes this is my third one this year" I asked her how her Doctor felt about this and she said "Oh I don't go to the same doctor for each abortion because they don't let you have that many a year". I said have you ever heard of birth control pills and he response "Oh they make me fat" I drove away thinking this young lady is no lady. I couldn't make eye contact with her at work after that day because I was so appalled that she'd rather have abortions than use birth control. She told me on the day she quit working with me that I was to judgemental, I never said a word to her but I'm sure I showed my disqust every time I looked at her.

It's the womans right to decide but with this decision comes consequences and unfortunatley it can be the male who suffers for the womans choice.
 

LittleRunningGag

Electoral Member
Jan 11, 2006
611
2
18
Calgary, Alberta
members.shaw.ca
Women can take the pill and men can do their thing so between the two, the chances of getting pregnant are rediculously small. Since both people did everything they did to avoid getting pregnant, there should be no problem with an abortion.

Suggesting that two people using birth control during sport sex suddenly change their minds because one is pregnant does nothing to further any argument. That only makes one or the other seem a little stupid and confused about what they want.

Keep in mind that not everything is that cut and dry. Ideally the woman is taking the pill on time, the man is correctly using the condom. If this is the case there shouldn't be a problem. But what happens when the woman doesn't take the pill correctly? It reduces its effectiveness considerably. Does the man know that she's taking it wrong? Not likely. But he's stuck with her decision regardless of what happens.

Fair?

What about women who tell men that their on the pill but actually aren't? It happens, we all know that. But the man is stuck.

Fair?

I really don't think that we can force men to be responsible if they don't have a 100% assurance that they won't have to deal with a pregnancy. Women have that assurance. If they feel that they aren't okay giving up a child, how is that the man's responsibility? Nobody is trying to move us back to the fifties, but if the shoe was on the other foot the feminists would be screaming from the walls. All I'm asking for is relative fairness. I'm just asking that no one be forced into something they don't want.
 

Nikki

Free Thinker
Jul 6, 2006
326
2
18
calgary,ab
www.avonbynikki.com
Good post self. I was raised Catholic so I could never have an abortion, I can't explain why I just couldn't. However I worked with a young lass of 19 and she came to me and asked if I would take her to the hospital she had booked an abortion and she also asked if I'd let her crash at my house for the day because she didn't want her mother to know. I said okay, when I drove her home that night as she was exiting the car I asked her to consider telling her mom so she could have some emotional support and she responded "Oh no I can't she told me if I got pregnant again she'd make me have it". My mouth dropped open and I said excuse me you've had an abortion before she said "Yes this is my third one this year" I asked her how her Doctor felt about this and she said "Oh I don't go to the same doctor for each abortion because they don't let you have that many a year". I said have you ever heard of birth control pills and he response "Oh they make me fat" I drove away thinking this young lady is no lady. I couldn't make eye contact with her at work after that day because I was so appalled that she'd rather have abortions than use birth control. She told me on the day she quit working with me that I was to judgemental, I never said a word to her but I'm sure I showed my disqust every time I looked at her.

It's the womans right to decide but with this decision comes consequences and unfortunatley it can be the male who suffers for the womans choice.

See this situation is entirely different. This person has issues. I don't know how the hell anyone could think its ok to use abortion as your sole method as BC....
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
LRG

"Fair" or rather "Smart" is when the man takes care of his own prevention regardless of what his partner says or does.
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
4,276
42
48
62
Richmond, Virginia
Most of these issues are difficult, emotional, and often made in collaboration. Around here we argue about the fringe circumstances. His and hers are real life. Nothing easy about it.


Im sorry at what point did I say they werent? In fact Im quite sure my post do show the intricacies of human nature and how complicated this subject is.
 

Curiosity

Senate Member
Jul 30, 2005
7,326
138
63
California
Nikki

Good point!

I have no idea!

Wear two condoms?

Withdraw if you think it is broken?

Withdraw before ejaculation?

Don't have sex?

Have oral sex as a substitute?

Get a Vasectomy?

Don't date?

Not many really good choices are there?
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
4,276
42
48
62
Richmond, Virginia
Good post self. I was raised Catholic so I could never have an abortion, I can't explain why I just couldn't. However I worked with a young lass of 19 and she came to me and asked if I would take her to the hospital she had booked an abortion and she also asked if I'd let her crash at my house for the day because she didn't want her mother to know. I said okay, when I drove her home that night as she was exiting the car I asked her to consider telling her mom so she could have some emotional support and she responded "Oh no I can't she told me if I got pregnant again she'd make me have it". My mouth dropped open and I said excuse me you've had an abortion before she said "Yes this is my third one this year" I asked her how her Doctor felt about this and she said "Oh I don't go to the same doctor for each abortion because they don't let you have that many a year". I said have you ever heard of birth control pills and he response "Oh they make me fat" I drove away thinking this young lady is no lady. I couldn't make eye contact with her at work after that day because I was so appalled that she'd rather have abortions than use birth control. She told me on the day she quit working with me that I was to judgemental, I never said a word to her but I'm sure I showed my disqust every time I looked at her.

It's the womans right to decide but with this decision comes consequences and unfortunatley it can be the male who suffers for the womans choice.


I dont know about Canada but the US has made legislature that the morning after pill is leagal (did we discuss this in another thread?) Personally Im not opposed to it. I know a "Lady of the evening" that after every John she uses a coat hanger and massages her uterus (kinda like a self IUD) Its CRAZY! but shes obsessed with not getting pregnant and doesnt trust condums even though she does use them. Every situations different. and until people start thinking about their actions or (in parents cases) lack of action this nonsense goes on and on and on.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
The Libertarian way:

Point D) If father opts out, mother has sole responsibilty of rasing child, putting it up for adoption, or aborting. If the father opts in, and the mother opts out but is willing to carry the child to term and adopt the child out to the father, the usual adoption rules apply.

So married guy A gets single girl pregnant, and he is not responsible because she can either abort or adopt out if she doesn't like him out of the picture. First, having a right to do either one isn't necessarily an eithical or moral option for any particular individual. Any reasonable legal proceeding would not support the conclusion that she can either raise it herself without any assistance and in detriment to the child, or give it away or have an abortion. It's almost silly that the ramifications of such a policy has to be discussed or debated. That baby is just as much his responsibilty as hers when it's born, unless the parties agree to another arrangement. I'm sure there are many guys waiting keenly for such legal irresponsibility so they can get out, have fun, and let their actions screw up the lives of others and not be their problems.

Thats the other side here, no one has to do anything if the responsibility is neither needed, wanted nor desired by both sides. If he doesn't want anything to do with it and she doesn't want him to have anything to do with it, no one will be enforcing anything (except perhaps the child at a later date - the person forgotten in this discussion).
 

tracy

House Member
Nov 10, 2005
3,500
48
48
California
The birth control pill is 99% effective a condom is only 70% effective. What happens if it breaks?

Condoms used properly are over 95% effective. If a man really doesn't want children, he should really invest the time into learning how to use them properly.

Studies on effective use show 3 pregnancies per 100 couples using them properly. US studies I've seen show about 14 for "typical" use. It should be noted that typical use often means couples occasionally don't use condoms at all, so the problem isn't with the condom.
 

selfactivated

Time Out
Apr 11, 2006
4,276
42
48
62
Richmond, Virginia
So its better that the child grow up in a hostile environment knowing "Daddy" is only around because the courts forced him to be? I hope "Mommy" has a good physiologist on hand. Should a child be broughtup in a loving and wanted place? I mean what are you really talking about? Custody? no. Child support? Keep it! if a man is only sticking around because some judge ordered it what does it do to that child your so concerned about?