Who's right to choose, a womans right to choose.

[Nikki]

So she should just be F'd for the rest of her life, as well as the kid. Or she should have the abortion or ship it off to another family? Get real.

You want it. YOU take care of it. If that means you want to keep it so badly that you are willing to get F***ed for the rest of your life and screw you child as well instead of shipping her to another family where she will be provided for I guess that is your choice isn't it.

And,btw, If a dad really doesn't want to pay there have been documented cases where he has gotten out of paying it or he just doesn't pay it. Just because you and the courts say that the guy must pay doesn't mean he will. And does that make him a dead beat..probably, does it make him right absolutly. He never wanted the kid he shouldn't be responsible.

 

[Ariadne]

No method of birth control is 100%. Claiming that it is does nothing to further your argument.

Women can take the pill and men can do their thing so between the two, the chances of getting pregnant are rediculously small. Since both people did everything they did to avoid getting pregnant, there should be no problem with an abortion.

Suggesting that two people using birth control during sport sex suddenly change their minds because one is pregnant does nothing to further any argument. That only makes one or the other seem a little stupid and confused about what they want.

 

[Nikki]

I had a feeling you argue from the position of never having a child. Explains alot.

Why? Now youa re saying just because I don't want to have a child makes my opinon less valid!!???:thefinger:

YOu don't know my reasons for not wanting kids! And they have no effect what so ever on my argument.

 

[Kreskin]

You want it. YOU take care of it. If that means you want to keep it so badly that you are willing to get F***ed for the rest of your life and screw you child as well instead of shipping her to another family where she will be provided for I guess that is your choice isn't it.

And,btw, If a dad really doesn't want to pay there have been documented cases where he has gotten out of paying it or he just doesn't pay it. Just because you and the courts say that the guy must pay doesn't mean he will. And does that make him a dead beat..probably, does it make him right absolutly. He never wanted the kid he shouldn't be responsible.

You have the same problem with you language as you do with your reasoning.

 

[Kreskin]

Why? Now youa re saying just because I don't want to have a child makes my opinon less valid!!???:thefinger:

YOu don't know my reasons for not wanting kids! And they have no effect what so ever on my argument.

Yes. Stuff it lady.

 

[Nikki]

You have the same problem with you language as you do with your reasoning.

My reasoning is fine. if you want it you it you provide for it. Noone should be forced into parenthood. Weather they had sex with you or not. If a women can opt out so should a man.

 

[tracy]

I honestly can not believe you say that. I though I had you pegged. I was way off. Or perhaps it's you clinical side showing?

I am not a pro lifer, but even I had difficulty holding it together when my wife had to abort a tubular pregnancy. I'm of the camp that believes life starts at conseption.

It is my clinical side. Don't get me wrong, I would never dream of refering to a wanted pregnancy as a fetus or a "thing" at all. I've worked with a lot of parents who have suffered through miscarriages and medically necessary abortions. I use words like YOUR child, YOUR son, YOUR daughter, YOUR baby, etc. because that's how they see it and that's what matters. They suffer and grieve for those losses just like they would have if the baby had been born and then died. I'm sorry that you and your wife had to suffer that.

BUT.... the law is clear on this one. A fetus isn't a person. If it was, women could be forced to be incubators, abortion would be illegal and we could forcibly stop women who do harmful things to their unborn children. We don't. Until that becomes the law, a man can't force a woman to have a baby if she doesn't want to. It's that simple. It may not seem fair, but I don't think it's fair that women have to bear all the physical burdens of procreation either and that's not going to change any time soon.

Edited to add: I don't know when "life" starts or what that even means or how it matters on this issue. A snail is a life. My dog is alive. Are 64 cells in a uterus a life? Are they the same as a newborn?

 

[Ariadne]

a normal 42 year old wouldn't give that reason but not everyone is normal are they?

Doctors hardley ever say yes! My dad had to go through so much **** when he was 26 years old to get one and he had 2 kids already!!!!

But generally you have to have a really good reason for it and for a 22 year old to say "well I don't want kids" isn't going to cut it with most trusting physicians. Not only that if you were a guy would you be willing to go to just anyone to get that procedure done?? I am betting not...and if you are... well you're crazy.

Most 22 year old guys don't want children so if that's all they say to their doctor, I have to agree with you that the doctor will turn him away. I know a guy that got snipped at 27 after 2 children. He was sure he didn't want any more BUT then he remarried and the wife wanted a baby ... the vasectomy was unsuccessfully reversed but thankfully, some sperm was set aside at the time of the vasectomy. That's family planning these days. Do you want the name of the doctor? I have no doubt he's still snipping men in their twenties if they have a reasonable explanation for their decision.

 

[Nikki]

Yes. Stuff it lady.

see you aren't offering any valid arguments. You tell me that because I dont want children "that figures" and basically tell me that my opinon isn't valid because of it!!!!??? Thats BS! Your damned right your getting the fingure!

A man shoudl be able to opt out if a women can. If you are saying that he should have to pay up because he had sex with you then abortion should be outlawed as well.

 

[Nikki]

Most 22 year old guys don't want children so if that's all they say to their doctor, I have to agree with you that the doctor will turn him away. I know a guy that got snipped at 27 after 2 children. He was sure he didn't want any more BUT then he remarried and the wife wanted a baby ... the vasectomy was unsuccessfully reversed but thankfully, some sperm was set aside at the time of the vasectomy. That's family planning these days. Do you want the name of the doctor? I have no doubt he's still snipping men in their twenties if they have a reasonable explanation for their decision.

lol No thank you. But I will keep that in mind. We are only 22 years old at the moment and don't want kids for a variety of reasons (ie i am going to be a psychologist and won't have enough time) but I don't know what the next 10 years would bring me either. I was mostly just using it as an argument to prove that it is an unfair statement. But thanks.

And you know with the divorce rates increasing that really is a good enough reason not get fixed. I mean you don't know what the coming years will bring. Thats why I feel so strongly about the issue of men having an absolute way out of childcare as well as women. At least equal the playign field.

 

[Kreskin]

see you aren't offering any valid arguments. You tell me that because I dont want children "that figures" and basically tell me that my opinon isn't valid because of it!!!!??? Thats BS! Your damned right your getting the fingure!

A man shoudl be able to opt out if a women can. If you are saying that he should have to pay up because he had sex with you then abortion should be outlawed as well.

You don't get it and I fully understand why.

 

[Nikki]

You don't get it and I fully understand why.

Again why? You aren't offering up any valid reasons why my opinons are not valid!? Just because I don't have children doesn't mean I dont understand how much they cost to raise. If you stop and htink about it logically maybe that is why I dont have children.

It is also why I don't think anyone should be forced into it.

 

[Kreskin]

Again why? You aren't offering up any valid reasons why my opinons are not valid!? Just because I don't have children doesn't mean I dont understand how much they cost to raise. If you stop and htink about it logically maybe that is why I dont have children.

I've stopped to think about this for a helluva lot longer than you have. Believe me.

 

[Nikki]

I've stopped to think about this for a helluva lot longer than you have. Believe me.

That may be so. But it still doesn't make my opinon mean less then yours and certainly not because I don't have kids of my own. Just like your opinon isn't any less valid just because I happen to think you are wrong. Anyhoo I do have to go now as my shift is over. But differences aside I see where you are coming from don't get me wrong like i said i know they cost alot I just disagree with you. And its because women have an absolute way out and men do not and I don't think that is right. You have a good night.

 

[Ariadne]

lol No thank you. But I will keep that in mind. We are only 22 years old at the moment and don't want kids for a variety of reasons (ie i am going to be a psychologist and won't have enough time) but I don't know what the next 10 years would bring me either. I was mostly just using it as an argument to prove that it is an unfair statement. But thanks.

And you know with the divorce rates increasing that really is a good enough reason not get fixed. I mean you don't know what the coming years will bring. Thats why I feel so strongly about the issue of men having an absolute way out of childcare as well as women. At least equal the playign field.

You're welcome. Let me know if you change your mind. The problem is that many people change their minds when they get into their thirties. They have the house, the car, the income, the successful job, the salary and they realize that they've done it all and still something is missing ... so they have the children ... and the divorce is probably not far behind. All this aside and back to the rights of men, parenting should be a choice for men and women but it's not like people have sex and out pops a baby, it's a year long process. This makes it so easy to think of the baby "academically", rather than "realistically". People don't seem to connect the dots ... sex = baby ... so sex becomes casual and when the reality of pregnancy sets in, people suddenly think it through. I think people that walk away from sex without considering the options have already made their choice, that being that they don't want children. This in no way means that they are relieved of all financial responsibility if the child is born.

 

[Nikki]

You're welcome. Let me know if you change your mind. The problem is that many people change their minds when they get into their thirties. They have the house, the car, the income, the successful job, the salary and they realize that they've done it all and still something is missing ... so they have the children ... and the divorce is probably not far behind.

Exactly and that is a big reason why right not getting fixed isn't a good idea. And its also why saying "if you want ot have sex and not have kids you should just get fixed" is a stupid comment in my eyes.

All this aside and back to the rights of men, parenting should be a choice for men and women but it's not like people have sex and out pops a baby, it's a year long process. This makes it so easy to think of the baby "academically", rather than "realistically". People don't seem to connect the dots ... sex = baby ... so sex becomes casual and when the reality of children sets in, people become realistic. I think people that walk away from sex without considering the options have already made their choice, that being that they don't want children.

Oh yeah I understand that it is a year long process and I do not under any circumstances think that the decsion should be made lightly or even in a matter of just a few days. It is somethign that needs to be discussed.

 

[Ariadne]

Exactly and that is a big reason why right not getting fixed isn't a good idea. And its also why saying "if you want ot have sex and not have kids you should just get fixed" is a stupid comment in my eyes.



Oh yeah I understand that it is a year long process and I do not under any circumstances think that the decsion should be made lightly or even in a matter of just a few days. It is somethign that needs to be discussed.

All I'm saying is that the discussion should happen before sex, not after. People can go ahead and have sport sex all they want, but it's not that much to ask of people that they make the decision before they get into the situation. The horse goes before the cart, not the other way around. People that want to put the cart before the horse are asking for trouble and shouldn't be surprised when they don't get their way - especially men when it comes to pregnancy.

 

[Kreskin]

This could be a whole new industry for Hallmark; the opt out card. Could leave it on the counter on the way out (wallet-sized) or mail it like a birthday card.

The "Happy Choices" card.

" We had a good time, I performed very well,

who knows, the old belly might swell,

and if a little one is on it's way,

it was nice knowing you, have a good day.

If you chose to have my baby,

you're SOL and I don't mean maybe.

You have your rights and options,

se the Doc if this is a problem,

or have the baby and give it away,

who the hell cares, that's what I have to say"

A tear jerker, ain't it?

 

[selfactivated]

First let me say I agree with LRG set of "rules". I had three children and not one of the fathers paid child support. Those children were MY creation and MY responcability but thats just my opinion.

Let me tell you a little story about a beautiful man I met a few months ago. I was at the local Pub and I was reading my book. He was curious and we talked. He had just came home from south carolina where his best friend of 7 years had just had an abortion (his baby) that had gone bad. He stayed with her, held her hand. They had talked about the pregnancy and his stand point was that is was her body and her choice BUT he would not be sad if she had the child. The conversation was getting heavy for a pub so we went back to my place and continued the story. He left the choice up to her. She decided to abort. He went home just to be called back because she ended up in the hospital. When he got there she was distraught, she sent him away telling him never call again. The man looked up from his wringing hands with tears rolling down his cheeks. He said to me, he wanted that child, he was willing to raise him alone if he had too, but it was her choice not his. I put in Hook and we sat in silence watching the movie. Two morning parents wishing we had never grown up.

 

[Kreskin]

First let me say I agree with LRG set of "rules". I had three children and not one of the fathers paid child support. Those children were MY creation and MY responcability but thats just my opinion.

Let me tell you a little story about a beautiful man I met a few months ago. I was at the local Pub and I was reading my book. He was curious and we talked. He had just came home from south carolina where his best friend of 7 years had just had an abortion (his baby) that had gone bad. He stayed with her, held her hand. They had talked about the pregnancy and his stand point was that is was her body and her choice BUT he would not be sad if she had the child. The conversation was getting heavy for a pub so we went back to my place and continued the story. He left the choice up to her. She decided to abort. He went home just to be called back because she ended up in the hospital. When he got there she was distraught, she sent him away telling him never call again. The man looked up from his wringing hands with tears rolling down his cheeks. He said to me, he wanted that child, he was willing to raise him alone if he had too, but it was her choice not his. I put in Hook and we sat in silence watching the movie. Two morning parents wishing we had never grown up.

Most of these issues are difficult, emotional, and often made in collaboration. Around here we argue about the fringe circumstances. His and hers are real life. Nothing easy about it.