What's the end game for Crimea?

White_Unifier

White_Unifier

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Curious Cdn said:
This whole crisis accelerated because Ukraine was on the verge of joining NATO and the Russians moved to stop it, gambling correctly that NATO would avoid a military confrontation with Russia to defend a non-member. The NATO charter does not lend itself to taking that direct of extra-territorial action. In spite of all the propaganda that floats about on the Western Alliance, it is a defensive alliance and not an instrument of expansion. No one joins NATO involuntarily ... The Warsaw Pact ... Well, that was something different.
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Without excusing Russia's actions, just remmember Jason Kenney on the streets of Kiev cheering on student protestors who had taken over government ministry headwuarters and criticizing the government for taking lethal action against those students. Thiswas before any Russian action in Ukraine. If we look at it objectively, had student protestors overtaken ministry headquarters in Ottawa-Gatineau, I would have thought the government foolish for not declaring martial law at that stage. Once students take over ministry buildings, that's reasonably a state of national emergency for which lethal force is reasonable.

While I grant that Putin exploited this as a pretext to 'protect Russian speakers' from the anarchy of Ukraine, Kenney and his ilk provided the pretext. Had they not done so, and had they supported Ukraine's decision to take lethal force against students who posed a genuine threat to national stability at that stage, the crisis would probably not have reached a stage that Putin could have used as a pretext.

Canada has a habit of playing double standards in the world and that causes problems like this one. I can guarantee that if that was going on in the streets of Canada, we would have invoked the War Measures Act.
 
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Curious Cdn

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White_Unifier said:
Without excusing Russia's actions, just remmember Jason Kenney on the streets of Kiev cheering on student protestors who had taken over government ministry headwuarters and criticizing the government for taking lethal action against those students. Thiswas before any Russian action in Ukraine. If we look at it objectively, had student protestors overtaken ministry headquarters in Ottawa-Gatineau, I would have thought the government foolish for not declaring martial law at that stage. Once students take over ministry buildings, that's reasonably a state of national emergency for which lethal force is reasonable.
While I grant that Putin exploited this as a pretext to 'protect Russian speakers' from the anarchy of Ukraine, Kenney and his ilk provided the pretext. Had they not done so, and had they supported Ukraine's decision to take lethal force against students who posed a genuine threat to national stability at that stage, the crisis would probably not have reached a stage that Putin could have used as a pretext.
Canada has a habit of playing double standards in the world and that causes problems like this one. I can guarantee that if that was going on in the streets of Canada, we would have invoked the War Measures Act.
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I'm sure that Canada as a player in this drama was a small pin prick in the grand scheme of things and the Russians wouldn't have noticed us at all.
 
White_Unifier

White_Unifier

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Curious Cdn said:
I'm sure that Canada as a player in this drama was a small pin prick in the grand scheme of things and the Russians wouldn't have noticed us at all.
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I took Jason Kenney as a Canadian example, but a few US and other politicians had visited the streets of Kiev to do the same. Imagine if student protestors in Washington D.C. had taken over federal department headquarters. You don't think the US would have declared martial law in that situation?Yet I think I remember at least one US politician, maybe more doing the same thing Kenney did in the streets of Kiev. Yes, Putin exploited it to his advantage, but had the West kept its nose out of it, the Ukrainian government could have regained control more quickly and so deprive Russia of its pretext.
 
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Curious Cdn

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White_Unifier said:
I took Jason Kenney as a Canadian example, but a few US and other politicians had visited the streets of Kiev to do the same. Imagine if student protestors in Washington D.C. had taken over federal department headquarters. You don't think the US would have declared martial law in that situation?Yet I think I remember at least one US politician, maybe more doing the same thing Kenney did in the streets of Kiev. Yes, Putin exploited it to his advantage, but had the West kept its nose out of it, the Ukrainian government could have regained control more quickly and so deprive Russia of its pretext.
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The Russians would have interpreted it as an act of aggression had we intervened more in the Ukraine and he would likely have poured one hell of a lot more soldiers into her. The whole Ukraine might have ended up as a wasteland, not just the edges. A wider war may have been (temporarily) averted. Less intervention? Putin would love that.
 
Twin_Moose

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Now let's see democracy in action and not Russia buying off the new President

Ukraine vaults into unknown after comic elected president

Zelensky has said that among his top priorities are winning the release of Ukrainians being held by Russia and rebooting Western-brokered peace talks.
"I will never let you down," Zelensky told jubilant supporters at his campaign headquarters where he was showered with colourful confetti on Sunday night.
"I can tell all post-Soviet countries: 'Look at us! Everything is possible!'," he declared.
The remark appeared aimed at Russia, where Putin has been in power for 20 years and many have followed the Ukrainian election with keen interest.
Poroshenko said that he would leave office but would not quit politics.
His faction has the most seats in the legislature and new parliamentary polls are due in October.
The Ukrainian president has strong powers over defence, security and foreign policy but will need parliament backing to push through reforms......More in the link
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MHz

MHz

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Time for the peoples of Alaska to hold a similar referendum. See how long that stays in the news when it succeeds.
 
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Cliffy

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Landslide Triumph over US Installed Puppet President in Ukraine

Sunday exit polls showed political outsider/entertainer-comedian Vladimir Zelensky scored an overwhelming triumph over US-installed billionaire puppet Petro Poroshenko by a 73 – 24% margin. More on this below.
According to a March Gallup poll, only 9% of Ukrainians trust their ruling authorities, Poroshenko with single-digit support.
He’s widely reviled for heading an illegitimate/US-installed putschist regime, exploiting and persecuting ordinary Ukrainians, not serving them.
He sold out to the West, governed by brute force, wrecked Ukraine’s economy, waged war on Donbass citizens, committed horrendous civil and human rights abuses, causing millions to flee cross-border to Russia and elsewhere, and is accused of rampant corruption.
Ordinary Ukrainians suffer hugely from high unemployment, elimination of social programs, inadequate healthcare services, hardline fascist rule, and depravation harming countless millions.
Skilled workers and others fled to Russia and elsewhere abroad to escape intolerable conditions, including political repression, neoliberal harshness, a falling currency, high unemployment and inflation.
Ukraine under Poroshenko and majority parliamentarians supporting his regime is an economic, social, and political basket case – exacerbated by severe repression.
Human and civil rights abuses include arbitrary arrests, disappearances, torture, extrajudicial killings, violence against journalists, human rights activists, Russian nationals and ethnic minorities, as well as intolerance of Ukrainians against despotic rule.
Russia’s Foreign Ministry earlier accused Kiev of “political chaos, corruption, lawlessness (and) aggressive nationalism, (along with state-sponsored) violence and crimes committed for political and ideological motives,” adding:
Ruling authorities “declared an open season on everyone whose views deviate from the official ones.”


More: https://www.globalresearch.ca/landslide-triumph-us-installed-puppet-president-ukraine/5675254
 
White_Unifier

White_Unifier

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Twin_Moose said:
Putin poking his nose into Ukraine again looking to see what he can get away with.
Russia testing Ukraine's new leader with passport move: Lithuania
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Strictly speaking, Russia can grant citizenship to whom it wants. Damn Putin's smart. Referendum for Crimea, Russian citizenship for any Norther Ukrainian who wants it. I don't appreciate Putin's games here, but you can't deny he know how to play the game.
 
White_Unifier

White_Unifier

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Twin_Moose said:
Sure citizenships but not passports for Ukrainian citizens
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Technically, there is no international law sayng that Canada cannot issue a Canadian passport to a non-citizen. Now granted that's not something the government of Canada would normally do except maybe in an emergency to try to get a person out of a country for his safety I suppose, but that would be an extremely rare occurrence. But still, no international law says we can't do that.
 
White_Unifier

White_Unifier

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Hmmm... I kind of like NYC... What if we offered free Canadian citizenship and passport to every person who could prove residency in NYC? It wouldn't take long before NYC would just be filled with Canadian citizens. Then all we'd have to do is find an excuse to invade NYC to protect our citizens and then call an annexation referendum. Whadda ya think? cleaver or what?
 
Twin_Moose

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Good sign from the incoming leader of a free Ukraine

Ukraine's next president is already getting tough with Vladimir Putin

Ukrainian President-elect, Volodymyr Zelensky, might be a political novice, but he's also willing to stand up to the most experienced geopolitical player on the block: Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Putin declined to send congratulations to Zelensky after his landslide election victory earlier this month. But the Kremlin leader did throw down a challenge. Last week, he signed a decree simplifying Russian citizenship for Ukrainians living in the breakaway Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine.
It was a provocative move that drew condemnation from the US. And over the weekend, Putin seemed to up the ante, saying the Russian government would consider streamlining the procedure for granting Russian citizenship to Ukrainian citizens -- not just those in separatist regions.
Russia and Ukraine have been locked in a proxy war since Moscow's annexation of the Black Sea peninsula of Crimea in 2014. Giving Russian passports to Ukrainians -- a measure Putin described last week as "purely humanitarian" -- could be seen as a pretext for further Russian meddling in Ukraine.
Zelensky, however, has countered Putin with his own offer to Ukraine's citizens.
"I would not advise the Russian authorities to waste time trying to tempt citizens of Ukraine with Russian passports," he said in a Facebook post late Saturday.
"The difference for Ukraine, in particular, lies in the fact that we, Ukrainians, have freedom of speech, free media and the Internet in our country. Therefore, we know perfectly well what a Russian passport actually provides. This is the right to be arrested for peaceful protest. It is the right not to have free and competitive elections. This is the right to forget about the existence of natural rights and freedoms."
Writing in both Russian and Ukrainian, Zelensky presented Ukraine as a bulwark against the Kremlin's brand of authoritarianism, saying his government will offer Ukrainian citizenship to those opposed to Putin's rule.
"Ukraine will not give up its mission to serve as an example of democracy for the post-Soviet countries," he said. "And part of this mission will be the provision of protection, asylum and Ukrainian citizenship to all who are ready to fight for freedom. We will provide shelter and assistance to everyone -- everyone who is ready to fight side by side with us for our freedom and yours."
That phrase -- "for our freedom and yours" -- has a particular historic resonance. Originally a slogan of Polish independence movements in the 19th century, it's a slogan that means that any struggle against despotism must be a shared struggle.
And that's a message that Zelensky is conveying to Russians, in their own language (and Ukrainians have also chimed in on social media, taunting Russians with visa-free travel they enjoy to Europe with their passports).
Zelensky is not set to take office until early June, so it's unclear how much of this back-and-forth will set the new tone for relations between Moscow and Kiev. But it's clear that for now, at least, Zelensky is willing to take on Putin at a rhetorical level.
And as yet, it's unclear whether the Kremlin will move forward with plans to offer Russian passports to all citizens of Ukraine.
"It's too early to talk about such modalities," Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said Monday.
Early, perhaps, but both Ukrainians and Russians will be watching the officials signals between their respective capitals in the weeks to come.
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